So giving up CS to teammates can actually cost you an S rank - wow...

ValyrianBlade··99 votes·5,803 views

I just played a game where I got quite fed really early as Ahri mid, but the enemy top and bot lanes were doing really well so it was a close game.

I was CS'ing fine/great for the first ~15-20min of the game, but I knew I'd hit full build early that game. I did indeed finish the game (with a win) at full build + sorc elixers and gold to spare.

I ended the game with a great score and was expecting an S+. Now, before all the haters start downvoting me, I ALREADY HAVE MASTERY 7 ON AHRI - I really don't care that I only got an S-.

That's what happened though. I carried the hell out of the game. Had by far the most damage (58k for me, the enemy ADC had 46k, my ADC and the enemy top each had 34k). Had about 90% kill participation, and about 50% of the total kills.

And since I knew I was going to be full build, I told top and adc to take all the farm. I purposely hit the wave low and didn't last hit it so they could get farm (except when we needed to push).

My top laner finished with 100 more CS than me. He got an S. I got an S-. Despite me being 22/5/19 (41 kill participation of 46 total kills) and him being 5/3/15 (under 50% kill participation). Despite me having more than 2k more total gold than him. Despite the CS disparity being intentional because I didn't need any more gold.

I get WHY it happened - my CS was garbage at the end of the game. For about the last 20min I didn't do a last hit aside from getting blue buff. Seriously though, it was THE RIGHT MOVE that game. My top and ADC each finished the game with 17K gold. That'd have been about 14-15K if I had kept last hitting since I could insta-clear waves with Q-W (I'm also implicitly including gold they got from having the earlier gold and being able to get kills in fights I would have had to get the kills in otherwise). That's a full item on each of my two main ancillary carries, because I purposely gave them CS I didn't need.

I had the entire focus of the enemy team all game. I took every ultimate they could throw at me, every summoner, and still survived the huge majority of fights (and got 2-3 kills out of the deal each time). I caught the enemy champions repeatedly with vision from my wards and ult'ing over walls to charm them and 100-0 them. I focused objectives all game long. I went on a 13-kill streak. I had the presence of mind to give up most kills late game without allies dying because I knew I didn't need the gold but I needed fed allies. The game was the definition of a carry.

I think games like this prove the mastery system really has no clue what it's doing. It can't detect when missing CS is a good move. How could it? Why wouldn't you want more gold? Oh, because your ally needs it more? Irrelevant...?

As I said earlier, I don't care that I didn't get an S+. I already have Mastery 7 on Ahri, it makes no difference. I was just shocked. I mean, I looked afterwards and it was pretty obvious why, but at first I was really shocked. Like I said when this system first came out, it's going to encourage suboptimal play. People told me I was full of it - that if you play well you'll get an S+. No, stealing kills and getting as much gold on yourself as possible is how you get an S+ but not always how you win games.

105 Comments

DrCyanide38 votes

The system weighs CS more than kills.

I'm actually fairly certain it doesn't look at kills but rather it's based on your KDA, so 22/5/19 would probably be the same as going 5/1/4.

Bhagswag27 votes

So 0/10/20 is the same as 0/1/2?

ValyrianBlade27 votes

{quoted}

So 0/10/20 is the same as 0/1/2?

That's what he's saying. And he's probably right. The point is that the system is really subpar. It isn't a good evaluator of skill/mastery, but instead merely attempts to quickly give players a rough idea.

It definitely does not take in to account the matchup you're in, enemy builds (e.g. you do well early so they all build resistances against you, letting your allies demolition them later but you're the one who did well, they get the mastery credit for damage to champions), only accounts for map presence to a limited extent (i.e. a jungler having lane presence is valued, but a laner getting camped for isn't adjusted downwards), etc...

I don't think KDA actually matters much at all though. I've had games where I went 3/5/8 and got a flat S despite being hard carried.

Serevas2 votes

That's the issue with a general system applied across everything. It can't factor in specific circumstances, like you giving up farm to the other laners on your team because you don't need the gold, but they could use it.

There was a game I recently got an S in, and I ended up with a 9/9/16 scoreline, but had 329 CS and was involved in almost every objective take on our team, dragon, baron, towers, etc.

In my opinion it didn't deserve an S, but I got it.

AcidTheWarlock5 votes

I literally got Rammus in an ARAM, did decently, and got an S.

I have no clue why.

I have no clue how the system works other than "play gud"

bill843 votes

I played fiddle supp a few days ago, went like 1/6/10 and got an s-.

Captain Aishi2 votes

I went 10-6-17 on draven support and got an S+ for that game despite me and my zilean carry being a combined 0-7 during laning phase XD

Leanus Crain3 votes

The problem is that it bases you on performance of the champ sololy. So it's grading you against other Ahris. Who wouldn't give the CS so their CS is high so the S rank has a higher CS cap. Dumb system but oh well.

XinZhao2WinNhao4 votes

Wrong, it looks at overall participation more than KDA.

You can get an S going 23/17/14 if you do most of the damage and get high participation.

Itsbeghdev2 votes

Or just an A+ 17/4/16 with highest damage in game and 79% kill participation because, as OP is complaining, low CS.

~~Or because it was against an Urgot ADC and Twitch support. ~~

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

Not denying CS is the largest factor, I agree.

But I'm saying they don't care about KDA.

It's CS then kill participation then everything else.

TheCharmingCharm2 votes

Unless you're support. The system defiantly looks at your assists to give you your grade. I started playing poppy support just because it was so much easier to get an S on her so i could get to lvl 7 :P.

Goatfish11 votes

[deleted]

Pierce The Veal2 votes

With increased amounts of programming and updating you can make the system a looooooooot smarter pretty easily.

It's pretty obvious a ton of effort didn't go into that part of the system.

DrinkMoreWhiskey4 votes

{quoted}

With increased amounts of programming and updating you can make the system a looooooooot smarter pretty easily.

It's pretty obvious a ton of effort didn't go into that part of the system.

Because the system is silly fluff anyway.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

Because the system is silly fluff anyway.

Good point. Adding more stuff to spaghetti code just means there's more spaghetti.

HazyCloud78 votes

If you want to actually get an S/S+ I find it that ironically it is most effective to actually steal your teammates' cs and prolong the game to steal the enemy's jungle as well when ahead.

Way, waaaay too much emphasis on CS in the current system. If I'm fed enough as LeBlanc to farm champions why not give my adc the cs?

Maiziea2 votes

I find it a lot easier to get an S+ if the game ends early, the only S+ I've gotten on Jinx was in a 17 minute game where I went 6/0/3 with ~150 cs. While getting a similar score with 350cs at 32 minutes gave me an S-.

Itsbeghdev2 votes

There probably is some game length criterion with mastery, since not only does ending a game faster sorta mean you did better but also champions are just better/worse at different times in the game. You got that Jinx S+ because you ended a game really quickly on a late-game champion.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Known category variables that Riot has released at some point or another: Champion, position, time. Champion/position combinations each have their own "bucket". Other variables (which are to date unconfirmed) are averaged with time ("averaged how" is unconfirmed). So the expectation of a 10 minute game is different from a 30 minute game. You performance is then compared to the average of all games in that "bucket" to determine a score.

J Epstein6 votes

Yeah, CS has an unnecessary weight towards getting an S+. Back when I was trying to get my Rank 7 for Quinn, I was focusing more on winning than padding my CS. If I saw an opportunity to gank another lane and take an objective, I would do that. Pushing objectives and ending ASAP. that was my play style and it worked fine.

But winning games wasn't getting me my Rank 7. I had to unnecessarily draw out the game so I could get 200+ CS, even though my team could have ended 5 minutes earlier. after doing that the S+'s started rolling in and I got it in no time.

I get why such a system that just checks raw stats is in place. But it just creates a checklist of things to do, and takes away from focusing on winning.

SirLapse4 votes

I thought it was already broadly known that this system is vastly inaccurate for who is really doing "S+" tier gameplay since it can't detect subtleties like baiting the enemy into a teamfight, forcing enemy summoner's, or the simple idea of giving a kill to a teammate so they can have an item advantage against their opponent.

I think of it more as a reward system to flaunt around in spare time since obviously you have to work overtime to get higher ranks in the system. Usually means being an a-hole too gameplay-wise.

chubs12242 votes

Or punishing you as a support for leaving your adc for solo gold on turrets or how well you peel for your adc with a well placed hook or knock up or silence.

Spacesuit Spiff4 votes

The annie struggle: letting adc take the cs so i always have my stun ready for when somebody gets out of position

JDB8eoX8x04 votes

The mastery system consists of partial luck sometimes. As Support Healers it's a bit more accurate imo, but even there it's very disappointing when you're responsible for your Marksman's success and they get an S+ but you only get a B because something in the spaghetti code triggered that makes the system devalue you as a Support. Sometimes it's not even lack of wards that does it, and it's hard to understand why because the system doesn't give you feedback.

It's hard to improve when the system refuses to tell you how.

rtbf2256182413 votes

The system is a noobtrap. High K/D/A is valued more than actual mastery.

Especially on Supports. I shouldn't get 50+ farm and 4 kills on Janna. I should get no kills, no farm and a lot of assists ideally.

WarlockLaw3 votes

The system judges you against other players on your champion. As such comparing your stats to another champion's stats would not 1-to-1 correspond for grades. Irelia (your top laner) normally gets more cs than you, but not by much (difference of 20). This means that she did better than her champions average than you did over your champions average. However she had half of her average deaths, while you had 1 less (both being 6). Now I have no idea if they track the raw kills, deaths, and assists or if they go off of the kda, but her dying less than you inflates it such that you aren't too far ahead of her in kda. The system also likely tracks objective participation and warding. For warding you were about even, both bought 2 pinks you with 2 more wards than him however he also destroyed more wards than you. I can't tell how much either of you participated for objectives however I suspect that Irelia used her TP to split push and help with objectives meaning she'd be on more objectives.

tl;dr I doubt that cs and kda are significantly different in weight, but there are other things that go into grading that Irelia probably did marginally better than you.

A Liberal3 votes

Pretty sure it was because my CS was sub-par, but I went 9/1/11 on Jhin a couple nights ago and got a B+ (not an A+, or even an A) and I was just like (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Heres a link to the match: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2338720226/219673520?tab=overview

Marshbouy2 votes

Getting an S rank was never about team play... That's why it will never be implemented into ranked to give you less LP loss if you get an S.

Scrimshäw2 votes

so why do i get S+ on so many supports

ValyrianBlade3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Treasure Goblin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xfl5NpIZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-06T18:25:50.217+0000)

so why do i get S+ on so many supports

It was actually nearly impossible to get an S rank on supports for the first few patches. Riot fixed it to reweight how supports earned mastery.

chubs12242 votes

Does anyone know if it counts neutral monsters from enemy jungle more then neutrals from your own? I had a game recently as khazix where I had a score of 8/1/1 with 78 cs and a 45% kill participation. However most of those kill where on the enemies Lee Sin along with 30 of the cs. I got an A for that game.

Pr0Meister2 votes

Absolutely agree, just had a real good Vel'Koz game (already got mastery 7 on him): 22/2/8, FB, largest multikill and longest killstreak, 65% kill participation, most gold etc... but we won that game so hard cause I roamed down bot at every opportunity and got 2 of theirs behind and my adc fed. Largely ignored my lane and cs-ing after kill/pushing out their mid.

Got A+ and I don't care much cause I got 7 already but it seems kind of daft indeed when i doubt doing a Susan and leaving bot to a coin toss/jungler would have helped my team.

This system is biased towards us non-Susans.

Halley2 votes

Let me put this here. So back in the time when AD carries were still relevant and Jhin was busted as hell, I, with a exhausting fight, got mastery 6 with him. Then I stopped to think; what should I do to get mastery 7? I got it in 3 games. Every one of them I played AP Jhin support and bam, 3 mastery 7 tokens in a row. The mastery system is a joke.

Itsbeghdev2 votes

My first S ever was on Galio support.

Don't ask.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

well, try playing a supportive champ...setting vision, peeling so other can deal dmg and survive while you take the blows. It´s the right thing to do if you want to win, but the rating system sure as hell doesn´t care for it.

ShaolinToilet3 votes

It's pretty easy getting s ranks as support

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

But seriously, it is. Just not by playing as a support. Because taking that Jhin/Cait ult, diving 1v5 into the enemy team to buy your allies time to escape, CCing an enemy to peel.... none of those currently contribute to an S rank, and the first two actually hurt it.

Bladeglory2 votes

Yep. I got mastery 7 on Braum last week... by punching Gnar's lights out in top lane. (He kept underestimating my damage)

The Soulforged2 votes

I once went xin and played it safe farming champions. Went something like 17/2/6 and got an S- at the end of game ;*( I mean, it was around a 25-30 minute game at most and I had around only 150-200 cs, but I was too busy farming champs, taking drags, and organizing splitpushes and tower takings to actually cs.

blackfootedfox2 votes

I'm currently working on lvl 7 Twitch and I just feel utter bull coming out of the mastery system right now. My last game I was feeding like hell and eventually turned it around to an even kda, but I got an S- from having 300 cs. These grades just feel like utter bull right now.

A Liberal2 votes

I recently got Level 7 Katarina and it was the most hellish grind ever. It was like the system punished me for doing too good. There was literally a game, not exaggrating (Ill try to find the link to it), where I went 28/2/6 and had most CS in the game, single handedly carried my team, and only got an A+. Meanwhile, the games I did manage to get S's on to get level seven I went like 12/6/8 after thirty minutes of feeding, and somehow the game thinks thats good?

SlashStriker1 votes

all i am reading is CS KILLS CS KILLS but is that all you did? Have you helped taking down Towers? Barons? Drakes? Inhibitors? You think only CS and Kills is all that matters? Have you forgot how to win the game? The Main objective of the game is to take down the Enemy Nexus which requires to take down towers, inhibitors and so on

In theory to makes S ranked aka perfect score is to excel at everything a champion can do which is what i mentioned above

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

all i am reading is CS KILLS CS KILLS but is that all you did? Have you helped taking down Towers? Barons? Drakes? Inhibitors? You think only CS and Kills is all that matters? Have you forgot how to win the game? The Main objective of the game is to take down the Enemy Nexus which requires to take down towers, inhibitors and so on

In theory to makes S ranked aka perfect score is to excel at everything a champion can do which is what i mentioned above

Pretty sure I explicitly said I took many objectives.

We took every drake and a baron that game. We also took every turret except top inhibitor. I was present for every tower except bot tier 1 (which was taken while I was taking dragon after roaming bot).

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

how does the game keep track of that tho?

ValyrianBlade4 votes

{quoted}

how does the game keep track of that tho?

It doesn't have to.

The system should stop caring about CS if you have sufficient alternative gold that last hitting doesn't matter to you. CS should matter considerably more when behind or even. When significantly ahead, damage to champions (especially other lanes) and objectives (especially in other lanes) should matter a lot more and CS should matter a lot less.

Also, even if you're ignoring all of that, there's the really easy answer: the system shouldn't care AT ALL about cs that you didn't last hit but an ALLY DID. If an ally gets the last hit, I didn't really miss it, did I? Even if I'm not intentionally trying to let him have it, if we're grouped in a lane as long as someone gets the last hit we're not wasting resources. It could easily keep track of CS allies have gotten while you were within ~1000 units and this could never happen.

DeathBurst1 votes

There's a lot of interesting ideas in this comment!

But I think there is a mismatch between your ideas and the grading system basic principle. The grading system does only 1 thing: it compares you versus other players on the same champ/position. What you suggest, on the other hand, is rather generic, and not champion specific, and it considers each game in isolation, without using other games as a point of reference. To implement your suggestions, Riot would need to do a massive overhaul of the system.

Leo10241 votes

Yeah that's why I always take cs, look at my most recent game, I KNEW I could carry so i said, "fuck it, i want an S" and I took all the farm, I'm not even level 5 ryze yet so it doesn't matter but I like S's, 3rd S on Ryze in the last 2 days alone

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that's why I always take cs, look at my most recent game, I KNEW I could carry so i said, "fuck it, i want an S" and I took all the farm, I'm not even level 5 ryze yet so it doesn't matter but I like S's, 3rd S on Ryze in the last 2 days alone

Yea, it's fine if you KNOW you can carry.

When I'm 8/2 on Ahri mid but the enemy Jinx ADC is 8/3 and the enemy Nasus top is 6/1, I really don't think I'm going to carry it alone. AND I knew me teammates were pretty decent - they weren't dying bad deaths. They were dying to ganks, dying in close fights, etc... They had the potential and once they got the gold they were able to help win it. Heck, my Lucian got a quadrakill in our last fight ace to end the game. That would never have happened if he wasn't given CS and kills earlier. Maybe we'd have still won the fight, maybe I'd have pulled a penta, but the way I was getting focused (Yasuo was literally suiciding to hit his melee range knockup on me because I kept dodging his tornado and he figured if he CC'd me long enough his team could burst me [and they didn't, I'd ult out with 10-20% hp and then fight from the sidelines] and my team always killed him on the engage) I wanted some gold elsewhere so if I were to misstep and die they could hold without me.

Lovelle1 votes

The whole mastery system is pointless anyway.

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