I don't understand this difference between AP and AD items.

option paralysis··103 votes·4,963 views

I tried out Vlad with the new runes and half way through the game I realised I don't have my 20% cdr/lvl anymore. I have to go domination/precision for heals and dmg. So my question is, am I supposed to buy item 3157 item 3102 item 3158 item 3152 just to get 40% cdr and end up with 200 AP and little dmg after all those items ?

Then I watched Zed buying item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 . Literally every time has cdr and everything you need. AD + lethality + even hp + mini ghostblade active + extra dmg when unseen + armor pen, etc... Even when they screw you over with hexdrinker you can build it into item 3156 with 10% cdr also. Oh yeah, item 3812 , just for the lols it has 10% cdr also.

Same with ADC's. They don't need cdr that much so they have all the AS, AD built in cheap items, except IE. Even if you need cdr on an ADC, you can get reaver and get 30% cdr just like that. All that while still having dmg, AS, AD.

Then you check AP items, and other than morello, which I cannot use on Vlad, all have built in decisions into items. If you want ap, well you won't get cdr and vice versa. But AD items all have everything.

139 Comments

WalkingInACircle77 votes

Yup. Ad items are atrociously superior to ap items and have been for at least a year.

Nyarlathοtep62 votes

Its called ad favoritism.

Thilmer22 votes

Runes reforged is a joke.

The new runes are good for the adcs and bad for mages, and mages have lose things like armour and mana regeneration in early.

Also, games are even more snowbally than before.

This is a joke; I was expecting a huge change in the meta, and we are in season 7.5 with ADCs winning the game single handed. I'm very disapointed rigth now, hope they change a few things in next patches.

Adeliza5 votes

This is pre season. Pre season always is a big balance mess at the beginning since there is so many new things going on and the dust needs to settle / meta needs to form to do proper balancing. It has been 2 days so far, calm down a little bit.

Yes these Runes have been on the PBE for a while, but the PBE is mostly made to test for bugs since people are not serious on there.

Salron9 votes

Half of those are defensive items Why should you have equivalent combat stats to someone who built pure damage?

option paralysis37 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xjB5rFbZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-08T18:59:48.558+0000)

Half of those are defensive items Why should you have equivalent combat stats to someone who built pure damage?

To use your words "built pure dmg", that has 40% cdr into 3 items with AD+LETHALITY+HP. EXACTLY. What am I going to build rabadons and ludens 2 first items ? We need more AP items and choices.

Salron2 votes

You can get 10% from Runes Proto + Lucidity bring u up to 30% Not sure about the last 10%

An Undead brat19 votes

And sacrifice everything else for it so the CDR is worthless anyway? All that while ADs have 40% CDR from items like nothing with being able to take full damage runes AND have all the other stats (both offensive and defensive) along with it? Good mentality here.

TequilaZombie9 votes

Your sugested builds:

item 3157 70 AP - 45 Armor - 10% CDR - STASIS item 3102 70 AP - 60 MR - 10% CDR - SPELL SHIELD item 3152 60 AP - 300 HP - 10% CDR - DASH+DAMAGE

Total: 200 AP - 300 HP - 45 ARMOR - 60 MR - 30% CDR - 2 DEFENSIVE UNIQUES & 1 OFFENSIVE ONE

item 3147 55 AD - 20 LETHALITY - 10% CDR - BONUS DAMAGE item 3142 55 AD - 20 LETHALITY - 10% CDR - EXTRA MOVEMENT item 3071 40 AD - 400 HP - 20% CDR - ARMOR SHRED

Total: 150 AD - 40 LETHALITY - 40% CDR - 400 HP - 2 OFFENSIVE UNIQUES & 1 UTILITY ONE

Example Mana-AP Build:

item 3165 100 AP - 400 MANA - 20% CDR - GRIEVIOUS WOUNDS item 3100 80 AP - 250 MANA - 10% CDR - BONUS DAMAGE item 3102 70 AP - 60 MR - 10% CDR - SPELL SHIELD

Total: 250 AP - 650 MANA - 40% CDR - 2 OFFENSIVE UNIQUES & 1 DEFENSIVE ONE

There are quite a few points that you're not acknowledging in your post:

1 - Manaless champions, such as Vlad, have their offensive capabilities restrained solely by their Cooldowns, making CDR a VERY powerful stat on them. Compared to Mana based champions, which have a limited mana pool and need to, in theory, be much more conservative with their spells due to a limitation of resources.

2 - CDR items, with the exception of Morellonomicon, are usually low-ish on AP. If you wish to rush CDR and AP, you will most likely end up with smaller AP values than going for raw AP from items like Deathcap and Ludden's.

3 - Your Vlad build has no pure offensive items, yet your Zed build has 2 pure offensive and one mixed item. The first build is MUCH tankier than the second and has two invaluable Unique effects with the Stasis and the Spell Shield, while the second brings in almost purely offensive stats and Uniques. Less Gold spent on tankiness = More Gold spent on Utility and Damage.

4 - You are comparing an AP Battlemage to an AD Assassin. If you compare a LeBlanc or a Fizz to a Zed you might see similar levels of damage spread through item purchases, as well as a similar squishiness. If you'd like to compare champions and their optimal builds, you should compare Vlad to the likes of Garen, Darius, Trundle, Volibear, or Warwick, to name a few.

With that said, AP Itemization is a bit lacking on it's offensive capabilities (despite offering considerably more on it's defensive ones), specially when one focuses on building CDR as soon as possible.

LordGeovanni1 votes

except for the fact that mana hasnt been an issue.... on mages. for the past 2 years because of constant buffs to makes mp pool mp5 and mana costs per spells tanks and fighters still worry about mana but mages dont worry about mana out side of the first 5 mins of the game or they been in lane for 15 mins straight after early game.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Considering that most Mana Mages are going for at least a item 3802 item 2033 or at the very least item 1056, they really shouldn't have mana problems after 5 minutes, seeing as they invested part of their gold into solving their mana situation.

As a side note, it is still common pratice for the Junglers to offer their second Blue Buff to the Mid Laner, which also solves the situation for an extra couple of minutes.

LordGeovanni1 votes

tanks will invest far more gold than mages into mana and they will still have mana problems with less damage and longer cooldown spells. Only Mages and crit adcs have anything to even solve their mana problems.

krashy3 votes

YES! THANK YOU! i mean... ur right

Fedoran7 votes

To be fair most assassins are casters so lethality giving cdr makes sense, but adc items and BC are just unacceptable

Chembaron Yamada10 votes

There are caster ADCs which rely on their spells for damage output. Jhin Xayah MissFortune So it actually does make sense that they get an option to get CDR.

And Juggernauts rely on CDR alot oftenly as well. Darius DrMundo Urgot

TeCoolMage2 votes

That's good, but they need to either be made to rely on low CDR, items that specifically cater to them and literally no one else (like essence reaver), or ADCs that are non caster have to be balanced around having 40% CDR as well. Same with ability based Juggernauts vs any bruiser that doesn't rely on abilities as much.

Nut on my Butt2 votes

{quoted}

ADCs that are non caster have to be balanced around having 40% CDR as well.

Have you SEEN Xayah's ult cd?

The non caster ones don't even look at essence reaver, so it's not really a problem itself.

TeCoolMage2 votes

already talked about Essence Reaver

items that specifically cater to them and literally no one else (like essence reaver)

And Xayah is a caster ADC so she definitely builds CDR

The problem is DD and Maw being usable by Draven, Vayne, Tristana, etc especially Tristana who just gets her Q more

krashy2 votes

didnt saw all season long somebody build heavy cdr on trist. (season 7 btw)

Poske6 votes

just build Morellonomicon

Yes mana stat is wasted but guess what

IT IS STILL EFFICIENT Many do it

Proxy3456 votes

If Morde can do well with Morello then obviously Vlad can too lol

Xonra2 votes

You lost with me Morde, and doing well.

Proxy3453 votes

There is a Diamond Morde main around here who posted about doing well with item 3165 during S7.

10Tickler5 votes

Everyone commenting here is forgetting one, fairly major fact.

Vlad isn't limited to building AP items to get AP

Vlad's passive makes him scale well with 1-2 actual AP items and going tank for the rest of his stats.

Meaning, Tanky items with CDR on them are Just as useful.

item 3107 item 3194 item 3065 item 3083 item 3089 item 3020 - 40% CDR, AP from health items and Rabadabadingdong's passive, tanky as all getout. Perfectly viable and Stronger self-healing. Boom.

And since OP mentioned it.

Vlad is PERFECTLY able to build Morello's. Yes, the Mana is a wasted stat, but the GW passive and 100 AP more than make up for that wasted gold (Which really, doesn't amount to THAT much)

PrinceOfStorms3 votes

That's a build so awful that I'd report any Vlad player who built it for trolling.

Vlad gets basically nothing from building HP. 1000 bonus HP from items gives him 25 AP. That return is so low it might as well be zero.

10Tickler2 votes

"Every 25 points of bonus Health gives Vladimir 1 Ability Power and every 1 point of Ability Power gives Vladimir 1 bonus Health (does not stack with itself)."

1000/25=40

Your math's flawed from the get-go there bubby. Your concept of what he's doing with that build is flawed too.

He's not there to DPS or Burst down the Enemy team. He's there to Survive, be annoying, regain a shit-ton of health, while his Allies do DPS and Burst damage that's amplified by his Ultimate.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Vlad gets 1 AP for every 40 bonus HP.

He's not there to DPS or Burst down the Enemy team. He's there to Survive, be annoying, regain a shit-ton of health, while his Allies do DPS and Burst damage that's amplified by his Ultimate.

Yeah and you'd be so much better off building full AP and just oneshotting them. Vlad has the scalings to do it and his passive lets him not die instantly. If he builds tank, then he doesn't really do anything because he has no hard CC and does no damage.

10Tickler1 votes

You're reading wrong again bucko!

Lemme make it a LITTLE easier for you.

#Every 25 points of bonus Health gives Vladimir 1 Ability Power

PrinceOfStorms3 votes

Not sure if misinformed, stupid or completely illiterate, but Vlad gets 2.5% of his bonus HP as AP. For every 40 bonus HP, Vlad gets 1 AP (as .025 * 40 = 1). This has been the case since shortly after the mage update.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Vladimir

2.5% of 1000 is 25. Vlad would get 25 AP from building 1000 HP.

10Tickler2 votes

That said.

You do have a point, a More standard Vlad build looks more like:

item 3116, item 3065, item 3151 item 3152 item 3083/item 3742 item 3158 / item 3020, which would net him...

+12 AP/ + 75 HP || 18 AP / +30% Heal || +12 ap/ + 80 HP || +12 AP / +60 HP || +32 AP (or 18 and the movespeed passive) and some decent CDR too, for a grand total of a passive... 86 AP (or, 72 should you choose Deadman's) and 215 bonus Health. Not including the Item's base stats, or Vlad's own Health Gain/level. He's got three sources of Self-heal (Q, Pool, Ultimate Damage proc) all boosted by 30% and... 20-40% CDR, depending on item choices.

I was mostly being hyperbolous about the "Lack of CDR on Vlad" that was somewhat core to the premise of OP's post.

Edit 1:

#VladGetsBasicallyNothingFromBuildingHP

Because just shy of a Free Rylai's worth of stats = nothing

Lunars4 votes

item 3065

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

Lets just face facts riot has always been bias for Ad.Ad has always been better.

Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votes

Mage Update begs to differ.

That was an AP meta through and through.

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

meh riot was quick to nerf them all unlike the adc update

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

True. They even removed Blue Buff giving AP.

6Sfool4 votes

...And still Annie can nuke entire teams if they're not careful. As much as I think AP needs some love, it's not just a matter of buffing them across the board. It needs a lot of power shifting (away from Morello's) along with new items, and there needs to be a better difference between AP bruiser and glass cannon. The only difference there currently is the amount of health. Squishies only build around 300 but bruisers build 100+, and resistance items are for some reason exclusively geared towards squishies.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

item 3065 item 3083

Vlad has an easier time building CDR than most mages.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Game was (and still is) so full of CDR for so long that people think it is normal to get MAXIMUM CDR as a side-effect to your normal build lmao

TeCoolMage4 votes

That's because of morello. Non mana mages and tear mages (other than cass and possibly ryze) suffer from lack of CDR

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Non-mana mages? So you mean Vlad? Literally only Vlad.

TeCoolMage4 votes

AP Kennen

and Annie because she doesn't even need mana items to do well except the occasional RoA

magical sub3 votes

akali, but she's an assassin

DarkRitual3 votes

Some vlad mains rush morello still, as even without the mana stats it's still good for the CDR and GW. It's not that you CAN'T use Morello, it's that it feels bad to have wasted stats on it when it's still good for some champs with how otherwise overloaded it is.

TimX24968B2 votes

only difference is that there's no 120 AD items.

krashy6 votes

hahahaha but there is no champ that scales 100% with ap auto attacks

LordGeovanni3 votes

azir can do you better than that

The Yetii Rider1 votes

AP champions have range. AD champions do not. That is the difference. /thread

Stars Shaper14 votes

Zed has more range than Xerath with his shadow Q.

Longshotz8834 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xjB5rFbZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-08T20:47:14.008+0000)

AP champions have range. AD champions do not. That is the difference. /thread

I had to log in to downvote this. Cmon people, we’re smarter than this.

TeCoolMage7 votes

Yeah, do people still buy into this "Range is OP, mobility doesn't make up for it" and "Mobility is OP, range doesn't make up for it" bs?

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