Scarra's thoughts about the game right now.

option paralysis··208 votes·24,704 views

He said the same shit I've been saying for months. Game is not fun. It has been dumbed down for casuals. I see that because I play flex, game's too trash for me to play coin flip solo q... and in flex there are times where I lose to fuckin' golds and plats just because they picked a better champ and killed me in half a second. Like scarra said too, people are toxic this season more, but that's normal when the game is PURE COIN FLIP. Yeah yeah, "it's a team game", but if you're not rank 1 material, you literally rely on playing thousands of games just to get the out of your elo, because you cannot carry a 2/20 bot lane, or a 0/10 top lane, because the game is basically a 3v5/4v5 and no matter how well you play, you just lose. There's no strategy in teamfights, it's just who was a better dumbass and got caught in one CC and died in half a second. Streamers quitting the game, most of the hating on the game, etc... and then you see shit like riot buffing lee sin's dmg before the worlds AGAIN. They have no shame, and it looks like they don't care at all. Season 8 is by far the worst for riot and they act like nothing bad is happening. I don't get it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiOBO4sKBBQ

132 Comments

Blåbæret83 votes

Well, that's what I've been saying.

Ghostcrawler brought damage creep to WoW and killed off PvP permanently (it's been a joke for years).

Ghostcrawler gets hired by Rito and has successfully implemented damage creep in League as well. Y'all are feeling the consequences of this guy's design philosophy right now.

He'll no doubt ruin the game and there's no saving it.

dragfin1225 votes

{quoted}

Well, that's what I've been saying.

Ghostcrawler brought damage creep to WoW and killed off PvP permanently (it's been a joke for years).

Ghostcrawler gets hired by Rito and has successfully implemented damage creep in League as well. Y'all are feeling the consequences of this guy's design philosophy right now.

He'll no doubt ruin the game and there's no saving it.

He makes them money by bringing in more casuals. He did the same thing in Wow and why I will not give Blizzard one more dime. At least this game is free to play. It's a trend with this guy and as soon as he has milked the community for all the possible green he can, he will move on and ruin another game. RIOT has no balls and only greed and they have ruined a great game by hiring this guy.

Lil Homie busta19 votes

TBH, damage creep was a problem before him. Things just got south quickier after his arrival.

Damage creep exists in every game. It's only after some life time that it becomes obvious. Hence the emphasis on controlling it all the time.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

Well, that's what I've been saying.

Ghostcrawler brought damage creep to WoW and killed off PvP permanently (it's been a joke for years).

Ghostcrawler gets hired by Rito and has successfully implemented damage creep in League as well. Y'all are feeling the consequences of this guy's design philosophy right now.

He'll no doubt ruin the game and there's no saving it.

Everyone said Legion pvp was so much better than what Ghostcrawler had done with it and Legion pvp was an absolute atrocity of balance. Triple DH pressing 3 buttons over and over to 2K rating easy. Only viable non-melee class was Mage. You could LSD but it took so much more skill and understanding than running melee mongo trains.

It was terrible. And the community said it was much better than what GC had done, so I can't imagine what he did.

ModAttysu The Poro3 votes

Completely agree. I actually preferred when GC was involved in WoW balancing. I remember during the WoTLK Beta he was like the only guy who bothered to be super communicative and receptive to the community, and the game literally FELT fun instead of DH just smacking the shit out of me.

Beacon Academy17 votes

Super communicative trash is still trash.

Teridax6863 votes

I think it's worth focusing on how Scarra discusses player perception of League:

During his discussion, and around the start of the eight minute mark, Scarra starts talking about how League has been generating negativity from within its community. Among his prime examples, he cites fellow players, namely fellow high-level players, content creators, and the League subreddit. He does not mention the Boards, arguably the most negative space of all. For quite some time, Riot and a handful of people on here had tried to employ a divide-and-conquer tactic against this space, attempting to convince people making complaints here that they were isolated, and only in a small minority in both numbers and opinions. Even as evidence mounted, this kind of tactic continued to be used, and while it didn't entirely convince people, many here were still willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt. For those who still are in doubt, I invite them to go to the subreddit, and see for themselves: where once the space was dominated by pro highlights at all times of the year, as well as threads celebrating custom creations, promoting new creators, and so on, the space is now filled with complaints and criticism not that unlike the ones on Gameplay. A thread linking Scarra's video is at the very top, with near-universal agreement to what he says in the comments, while threads further down poke at subjects like Zoe, Ahri's charm, and Akali's champion spotlight in intense detail. Contrary to what certain people have been suggesting, even the largest and most representative among League communities is very much in sync with the Boards, as are its figureheads.

Point being, we've been lied to. Moreover, we've been lied to deliberately, and turned against each other in an attempt to obscure the facts on the matter. The truth here is that Gameplay isn't this pocket of delusion, but simply one out of the many League subcommunities out there, one that has picked up on the issues with the game and tried to bring them to Riot's attention. Even as a few Rioters have come in just recently to insinuate that damage creep is a hoax, we get wave after wave of analysis from the top tier of players in League confirming it. When players bring up the number of streamers that have left, and have those dismissed as isolated cases, Scarra himself brings up the fact that many among his own friends and colleagues have either left, or admitted that they only continue streaming League out of financial necessity. It is time we faced reality: League is not a popular game. It may still have many players left, but as Scarra pointed out, many of these players actively hate the game, and play only out of the investment they've put into it. Even then, that has not been strong enough to prevent many players from leaving, and its viewership from declining. The game is generating a lot of negative word-of-mouth, which is causing what little attention it continues to receive out of its own sphere to be very unattractive. The game is not gaining the success it is aiming for, as noted by the failure of Clash, and is certainly not generating player growth, in spite of its campaign to attract fresh blood. Instead of publicly acknowledging this, however, or even just remaining silent on the matter, Riot's response has been to divide and dismiss what has become fairly unified criticism against their decisions, using intentional deceit and outright propaganda.

To some extent, I don't blame whoever has to be in charge of that. League's development is such that Riot cannot allow themselves to enact any major changes before Worlds, which means we're all trapped with the game as it currently exists until then. Even though inaction will only generate further negativity and resentment, it is impossible to solve the game's current problems with minor changes. Because of this, it is understandable that one would try to mollify public opinion until the developers finally have a chance of making things right. The problem, however, is that the methods employed thus far have been unethical and disrespectful of players, as well as patently unsuccessful. Many among us still remember the fiasco that was Dynamic Queue, and Riot's ineffective attempts during that time to convince everyone that it was succeeding. It seems that Riot has doubled down on that strategy, as this season has seen a rise in dev posts that try to twist and misrepresent sloppily presented statistics in order to contradict the general consensus, each time to no avail. Moreover, League's development has been in trouble for some time, as this is by no means the first season to receive large amounts of complaints, but unlike most previous seasons, Season 8 has seen a rise in many of the factors players had pointed out as problems in its immediate predecessors, namely an increase in damage and snowballing. Season 8 may be League's lowest point not simply due to circumstance, but because it is the product of Riot actively trying to go against its own playerbase.

Because of this, I think Season 9 is going to be a major turning point for League one way or the other. This isn't to say that League is dying, or will die then, because it still has a large playerbase and enough capital to keep going for a good while, but it is a time that will determine whether Riot is willing or not to reconnect with its players. Much of this season's criticism can be boiled down to some very basic points: damage is too high, games are too snowbally, balance is too extreme, runes have too much impact. Addressing these conclusively would be a pristine opportunity for Riot to score a big popularity hit, regain some of its playerbase's respect and trust, and generate a ton of momentum for their new season, particularly since the devs are giving themselves much more time to work on a bigger update with the lack of balance work we're seeing in these recent patches. It may not solve all of League or Riot's problems, but would address many major pain points, and show to us all that Riot does listen after all. Should they fail in this, however, in spite of all the feedback given to them at all levels, through all platforms and media, and it will be clear evidence that they fundamentally do not have the players' best interests in mind, and are on a path to permanent decline.

I too would like to see a League that returns to a state where it can generate passion and enjoyment from its players, and encourage people to get together for fun. There are a lot of content creators I miss, and I'd like to see people like Sp4zie and Dyrus (especially Dyrus) go back to posting fun League content. It saddened me to see Dyrus go from intense sadness during his retirement video, to immense joy at returning to streaming, and back to boredom and frustration upon falling out of love with a game he played since the beginning. It saddens me to see someone as toxic as hashinshin become one of the major voices of this community, simply because he's one of the few older content creators who hasn't quit. It also saddens me to see someone like Scarra, who is still visibly passionate about League, talk about it with a palpable sense of finality. These are not the signs of a healthy game, yet there have been many seasons beforehand that were well-liked, even as they were being experienced then. Whatever strategy Riot has been following since Season 6 has been failing spectacularly, and it's time for them to admit their mistakes, and bring us back to a more sane environment. The future of League depends on it.

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

Even as a few Rioters have come in just recently to insinuate that damage creep is a hoax

See, this is just bullshit. They haven't done that at all, but since they haven't explicitly said "YES DAMAGE CREEP IS REAL" it's now just "Riot is just trying to pull the wool over our eyes!!"

Look, I get a lot of people here don't have a lot of faith in Riot. I don't find that unreasonable. But you ignore perspective. They've explained how they see the damage creep that the community sees, and they explain their side of it. That's not insinuating that it's a hoax. It's creating discussion, it's giving us what they think.

One of the things I try to do, is try to always consider that I'm wrong about something. That someone else has more info that I do. I don't see that in the boards, who think themselves as right and holy as a crusade.

Teridax6835 votes

Take a look at this comment nest. Read it properly. In it you will find a Rioter making vague remarks about how they apparently have data indicating no increase in damage, despite making no effort to give out said data or provide even the barest amount of information regarding its parameters. This is an attempt to mislead, and it is your own comment here that is bullshit. For someone who just bragged about their self-professed ability to consider the possibility of being wrong, it seems an awful lot like you rushed to a conclusion here without looking at the facts.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I have read it, I read it while new responses were still being posted, because I like to be up to date and informed on what Rioters have to say on things.

Here's the thing. They don't just have graphs and data sitting right next to them all the time. The ones we do see, are in AskRiot's and DevCorner posts, since those are highly detailed and constructed posts, that they can explain fully about. Data just isn't always in a neat-tidy Copy-Paste image that you can post any time you want, especially not if you want to make sure it can be understood.

His post was not a full branch summary. It was an assessment of what they planon doing, and some other tidbits of reasoning along the way. His point in talking in that thread, was not to explain everything in detail. It was to give their perspective, and future updates on it.

Secondly, branching off that point, they're leading into addressing damage in more detailed post, supposedly sometime this week, just as they did with talking about Tanks (the original Red Post in the thread).

My point is, you're taking what Nectar is saying, as if it's the finale. It's not, it's a trailer for the big film that will hit screens this coming week. That's the problem, you're looking for what you don't see, not what's coming along.

"I don't want to get too deep into the weeds here though, since that's just my opinion - but hope that once we collect our thoughts next week we're able to give you a firmer stance and what/if we're going to do something."

From Maple's Post.

Teridax6812 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-31T20:07:48.471+0000)

Here's the thing. They don't just have graphs and data sitting right next to them all the time. The ones we do see, are in AskRiot's and DevCorner posts, since those are highly detailed and constructed posts, that they can explain fully about. Data just isn't always in a neat-tidy Copy-Paste image that you can post any time you want, especially not if you want to make sure it can be understood.

Except, as I have said above, the data presented in those posts is not highly detailed at all. In fact, many of the graphs presented are laconic, and lacking in explanation for their methodology, or even the basic parameters they are using and the manner in which they were quantified. This is why I asked for clarification, using basic requests that could have easily been answered right then and there, without having to post a full graph.

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-31T20:07:48.471+0000)

His post was not a full branch summary. It was an assessment of what they planon doing, and some other tidbits of reasoning along the way. His point in talking in that thread, was not to explain everything in detail. It was to give their perspective, and future updates on it.

Except that is simply not the case. Sure, there was an announcement for future plans, but in the meantime Maple Nectar acted as if they held critical information already, and waved it around without providing any clarification or evidence. If this were just an isolated incident, maybe that could just have been chalked down as a teaser, but this just followed another post they had just made that had intentionally tried to deceive players into thinking the state of snowballing in League wasn't so bad, and had meaningfully improved. Their mode of argumentation is not honest, and contrary to your claims, neither is yours.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Maple Nectar acted as if they held critical information already, and waved it around without providing any clarification or evidence

If his posts were meant to be a final answer to this, then yes, there would be a problem. But, as you can obviously see from Maple's first post in the thread, it wasn't meant to be. There is going to be follow up, there's going to be another post, this isn't the final word in a sentence.

Like said, it's a glimpse into their perspective, not the whole thing, and you're making it more malicious than it actually is.

just followed another post they had just made that had intentionally tried to deceive players into thinking the state of snowballing in League wasn't so bad, and had meaningfully improved.

What post is this, cause it sounds like you're just interpreting things the way you want to interpret them.

Teridax6811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T00:34:39.266+0000)

If his posts were meant to be a final answer to this, then yes, there would be a problem. But, as you can obviously see from Maple's first post in the thread, it wasn't meant to be. There is going to be follow up, there's going to be another post, this isn't the final word in a sentence.

Except if that were the case, Maple could have just as easily kept silent on the matter, or at least not put up the pretense that the final answer had already been found already (i.e. with the data he claimed to have). Your argument here is inconsistent at best, and wilfully ignorant at worst.

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T00:34:39.266+0000)

What post is this, cause it sounds like you're just interpreting things the way you want to interpret them.

Here is the post in question. For someone who claims impartiality, it is interesting that you would assume my intentions and methods before even being aware of what is being discussed. I look forward to you finding a way to pre-emptively defend Maple's post in the meantime.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Except if that were the case, Maple could have just as easily kept silent on the matter, or at least not put up the pretense that the final answer had already been found already

Except he hasn't and the final answer hasn't been found already. They're still talking about it. Literally from the quote from before.

but hope that once we collect our thoughts next week we're able to give you a firmer stance and what/if we're going to do something."

His "Final Answer" was him clarifying that from their perspective, damage has not increased relatively. That isn't a final answer, that's their point of view. A final answer, is "Hey, we are going to do X" or "Hey, we aren't going to do X".

And yes, you're seeing things the way you want to see it. The post doesn't do anything the way you describe it to be doing. The only thing close to "intentionally tried to deceive players into thinking the state of snowballing in League wasn't so bad" is this.

So far those efforts to reduce snowballing seem to be paying off, and we’ve seen a pretty rapid return to the norm in terms of frequency.

You're choosing to interpret this as them 'trying to deceive us'. How? They did something, there was a result, and they're satisfied with the results. At what point do they try to 'deceive' us?

Here's the problem. Meddlr's post, you accuse him of trying to deceive us, meanwhile he actually shows a graph, explains it, and continues his reasoning. Maples post, you accuse him of trying to deceive us because.... he didn't show any proof or stats to back up his claim.

I don't think anything they'll do will convince you. You're choosing what you want to see.

Teridax688 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T01:11:05.457+0000)

His "Final Answer" was him clarifying that from their perspective, damage has not increased relatively. That isn't a final answer, that's their point of view. A final answer, is "Hey, we are going to do X" or "Hey, we aren't going to do X".

Except that isn't a point of view, that is an opinion he tried to substantiate using data. What he effectively tried to say is that players were factually wrong in evaluating the state of damage in League, using information he cared enough about to wave around, but not enough to actually elaborate upon. Arguing by repetition does not make this any less the case.

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T01:11:05.457+0000)

You're choosing to interpret this as them 'trying to deceive us'. How? They did something, there was a result, and they're satisfied with the results. At what point do they try to 'deceive' us?

Did you actually read the thread? Did you not read the responses to it, on how it poorly framed information, failed to provide adequate explanation for its metrics, and tried to paint an overall positive picture when the results were overwhelmingly negative? Attempting to distort semantics and feign ignorance as to the difference between the presentation of the posts and its contents only demonstrates your own bias on the matter, and your eminently visible lack of impartiality in this discussion.

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T01:11:05.457+0000)

Maples post, you accuse him of trying to deceive us because.... he didn't show any proof or stats to back up his claim.

Claiming to be factually correct without producing actual facts is indeed deceptive, so... why are you feigning disbelief here, exactly?

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T01:11:05.457+0000)

I don't think anything they'll do will convince you. You're choosing what you want to see.

Except I'm not, my views here are backed up by evidence, which I have taken great pains to present to you as clearly as possible. I am not the only one with this opinion, either. Meanwhile, your own opinions are founded upon deliberate ignorance and a very large degree of mental gymnastics, which you have been employing to twist facts and question the very nature of logic when they did not suit your ends. It is you who are choosing what to see and what to believe, and your false pretenses of rationality and critical thinking both fall apart immediately upon being challenged.

IainG106 votes

Hi, science graduate here; one of the constant themes of our tutorials was how to rip apart a graph, because you can fairly easily fudge a graph to say whatever you want. With no methods section, no error bars/confidence intervals, and no real explanations or conclusions beyond 'look how this data backs up our hypothesis,' these would be the kind of things that would throw up warning flags to any reviewer...

Teridax684 votes

Exactly! A lot of it is pretty basic stuff, too, like "what does this variable mean?", and even that was lacking. I can understand Riot not wanting to present their statistics with the same rigor as a research paper, and to some extent I wouldn't entirely want that either, but even when it comes to the bare minimum on proper graph presentation, there are some visible problems already. When Riot uses graphs, they do not take the time to so much as explain what their variables are and how they arrived at them (how exactly did they define, let alone measure "comeback chance" in proper terms?), and when they post these, it's very clearly with the goal of having the data serve some predetermined conclusion, rather than the other way round, even if the data does not support said conclusion or contradicts it outright. This is also why I feel we're being deceived, because we're being presented with the illusion that Riot is being super-serious about making decisions informed by statistics (and who knows, perhaps they are internally), when the statistics they show us are handled terribly. I also find it troubling that Riot would be aware of a need for statistical grounding to their design and balance methodology, yet would go against what their statistics tell them, and still show those statistics to us in an attempt to convince us of their objectivity.

charge attack9 votes

No one takes the boards seriously. Hell, they don’t even really take Reddit seriously and their community is like 30x as big if not more.

Ravenous Howls12 votes

{quoted}

I think it's worth focusing on how Scarra discusses player perception of League:

During his discussion, and around the start of the eight minute mark, Scarra starts talking about how League has been generating negativity from within its community. Among his prime examples, he cites fellow players, namely fellow high-level players, content creators, and the League subreddit. He does not mention the Boards, arguably the most negative space of all. For quite some time, Riot and a handful of people on here had tried to employ a divide-and-conquer tactic against this space, attempting to convince people making complaints here that they were isolated, and only in a small minority in both numbers and opinions. Even as evidence mounted, this kind of tactic continued to be used, and while it didn't entirely convince people, many here were still willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt. For those who still are in doubt, I invite them to go to the subreddit, and see for themselves: where once the space was dominated by pro highlights at all times of the year, as well as threads celebrating custom creations, promoting new creators, and so on, the space is now filled with complaints and criticism not that unlike the ones on Gameplay. A thread linking Scarra's video is at the very top, with near-universal agreement to what he says in the comments, while threads further down poke at subjects like Zoe, Ahri's charm, and Akali's champion spotlight in intense detail. Contrary to what certain people have been suggesting, even the largest and most representative among League communities is very much in sync with the Boards, as are its figureheads.

Point being, we've been lied to. Moreover, we've been lied to deliberately, and turned against each other in an attempt to obscure the facts on the matter. The truth here is that Gameplay isn't this pocket of delusion, but simply one out of the many League subcommunities out there, one that has picked up on the issues with the game and tried to bring them to Riot's attention. Even as a few Rioters have come in just recently to insinuate that damage creep is a hoax, we get wave after wave of analysis from the top tier of players in League confirming it. When players bring up the number of streamers that have left, and have those dismissed as isolated cases, Scarra himself brings up the fact that many among his own friends and colleagues have either left, or admitted that they only continue streaming League out of financial necessity. It is time we faced reality: League is not a popular game. It may still have many players left, but as Scarra pointed out, many of these players actively hate the game, and play only out of the investment they've put into it. Even then, that has not been strong enough to prevent many players from leaving, and its viewership from declining. The game is generating a lot of negative word-of-mouth, which is causing what little attention it continues to receive out of its own sphere to be very unattractive. The game is not gaining the success it is aiming for, as noted by the failure of Clash, and is certainly not generating player growth, in spite of its campaign to attract fresh blood. Instead of publicly acknowledging this, however, or even just remaining silent on the matter, Riot's response has been to divide and dismiss what has become fairly unified criticism against their decisions, using intentional deceit and outright propaganda.

To some extent, I don't blame whoever has to be in charge of that. League's development is such that Riot cannot allow themselves to enact any major changes before Worlds, which means we're all trapped with the game as it currently exists until then. Even though inaction will only generate further negativity and resentment, it is impossible to solve the game's current problems with minor changes. Because of this, it is understandable that one would try to mollify public opinion until the developers finally have a chance of making things right. The problem, however, is that the methods employed thus far have been unethical and disrespectful of players, as well as patently unsuccessful. Many among us still remember the fiasco that was Dynamic Queue, and Riot's ineffective attempts during that time to convince everyone that it was succeeding. It seems that Riot has doubled down on that strategy, as this season has seen a rise in dev posts that try to twist and misrepresent sloppily presented statistics in order to contradict the general consensus, each time to no avail. Moreover, League's development has been in trouble for some time, as this is by no means the first season to receive large amounts of complaints, but unlike most previous seasons, Season 8 has seen a rise in many of the factors players had pointed out as problems in its immediate predecessors, namely an increase in damage and snowballing. Season 8 may be League's lowest point not simply due to circumstance, but because it is the product of Riot actively trying to go against its own playerbase.

Because of this, I think Season 9 is going to be a major turning point for League one way or the other. This isn't to say that League is dying, or will die then, because it still has a large playerbase and enough capital to keep going for a good while, but it is a time that will determine whether Riot is willing or not to reconnect with its players. Much of this season's criticism can be boiled down to some very basic points: damage is too high, games are too snowbally, balance is too extreme, runes have too much impact. Addressing these conclusively would be a pristine opportunity for Riot to score a big popularity hit, regain some of its playerbase's respect and trust, and generate a ton of momentum for their new season, particularly since the devs are giving themselves much more time to work on a bigger update with the lack of balance work we're seeing in these recent patches. It may not solve all of League or Riot's problems, but would address many major pain points, and show to us all that Riot does listen after all. Should they fail in this, however, in spite of all the feedback given to them at all levels, through all platforms and media, and it will be clear evidence that they fundamentally do not have the players' best interests in mind, and are on a path to permanent decline.

I too would like to see a League that returns to a state where it can generate passion and enjoyment from its players, and encourage people to get together for fun. There are a lot of content creators I miss, and I'd like to see people like Sp4zie and Dyrus (especially Dyrus) go back to posting fun League content. It saddened me to see Dyrus go from intense sadness during his retirement video, to immense joy at returning to streaming, and back to boredom and frustration upon falling out of love with a game he played since the beginning. It saddens me to see someone as toxic as hashinshin become one of the major voices of this community, simply because he's one of the few older content creators who hasn't quit. It also saddens me to see someone like Scarra, who is still visibly passionate about League, talk about it with a palpable sense of finality. These are not the signs of a healthy game, yet there have been many seasons beforehand that were well-liked, even as they were being experienced then. Whatever strategy Riot has been following since Season 6 has been failing spectacularly, and it's time for them to admit their mistakes, and bring us back to a more sane environment. The future of League depends on it.

Please copy this and paste it as it’s own separate post. Probably one of the best summaries I’ve read in regards to league and it’s problems. I would upvote a 100 times if I could. Well said m8.

Power Cosmic7 votes

{quoted}

I think it's worth focusing on how Scarra discusses player perception of League:

During his discussion, and around the start of the eight minute mark, Scarra starts talking about how League has been generating negativity from within its community. Among his prime examples, he cites fellow players, namely fellow high-level players, content creators, and the League subreddit. He does not mention the Boards, arguably the most negative space of all. For quite some time, Riot and a handful of people on here had tried to employ a divide-and-conquer tactic against this space, attempting to convince people making complaints here that they were isolated, and only in a small minority in both numbers and opinions. Even as evidence mounted, this kind of tactic continued to be used, and while it didn't entirely convince people, many here were still willing to give Riot the benefit of the doubt. For those who still are in doubt, I invite them to go to the subreddit, and see for themselves: where once the space was dominated by pro highlights at all times of the year, as well as threads celebrating custom creations, promoting new creators, and so on, the space is now filled with complaints and criticism not that unlike the ones on Gameplay. A thread linking Scarra's video is at the very top, with near-universal agreement to what he says in the comments, while threads further down poke at subjects like Zoe, Ahri's charm, and Akali's champion spotlight in intense detail. Contrary to what certain people have been suggesting, even the largest and most representative among League communities is very much in sync with the Boards, as are its figureheads.

Point being, we've been lied to. Moreover, we've been lied to deliberately, and turned against each other in an attempt to obscure the facts on the matter. The truth here is that Gameplay isn't this pocket of delusion, but simply one out of the many League subcommunities out there, one that has picked up on the issues with the game and tried to bring them to Riot's attention. Even as a few Rioters have come in just recently to insinuate that damage creep is a hoax, we get wave after wave of analysis from the top tier of players in League confirming it. When players bring up the number of streamers that have left, and have those dismissed as isolated cases, Scarra himself brings up the fact that many among his own friends and colleagues have either left, or admitted that they only continue streaming League out of financial necessity. It is time we faced reality: League is not a popular game. It may still have many players left, but as Scarra pointed out, many of these players actively hate the game, and play only out of the investment they've put into it. Even then, that has not been strong enough to prevent many players from leaving, and its viewership from declining. The game is generating a lot of negative word-of-mouth, which is causing what little attention it continues to receive out of its own sphere to be very unattractive. The game is not gaining the success it is aiming for, as noted by the failure of Clash, and is certainly not generating player growth, in spite of its campaign to attract fresh blood. Instead of publicly acknowledging this, however, or even just remaining silent on the matter, Riot's response has been to divide and dismiss what has become fairly unified criticism against their decisions, using intentional deceit and outright propaganda.

To some extent, I don't blame whoever has to be in charge of that. League's development is such that Riot cannot allow themselves to enact any major changes before Worlds, which means we're all trapped with the game as it currently exists until then. Even though inaction will only generate further negativity and resentment, it is impossible to solve the game's current problems with minor changes. Because of this, it is understandable that one would try to mollify public opinion until the developers finally have a chance of making things right. The problem, however, is that the methods employed thus far have been unethical and disrespectful of players, as well as patently unsuccessful. Many among us still remember the fiasco that was Dynamic Queue, and Riot's ineffective attempts during that time to convince everyone that it was succeeding. It seems that Riot has doubled down on that strategy, as this season has seen a rise in dev posts that try to twist and misrepresent sloppily presented statistics in order to contradict the general consensus, each time to no avail. Moreover, League's development has been in trouble for some time, as this is by no means the first season to receive large amounts of complaints, but unlike most previous seasons, Season 8 has seen a rise in many of the factors players had pointed out as problems in its immediate predecessors, namely an increase in damage and snowballing. Season 8 may be League's lowest point not simply due to circumstance, but because it is the product of Riot actively trying to go against its own playerbase.

Because of this, I think Season 9 is going to be a major turning point for League one way or the other. This isn't to say that League is dying, or will die then, because it still has a large playerbase and enough capital to keep going for a good while, but it is a time that will determine whether Riot is willing or not to reconnect with its players. Much of this season's criticism can be boiled down to some very basic points: damage is too high, games are too snowbally, balance is too extreme, runes have too much impact. Addressing these conclusively would be a pristine opportunity for Riot to score a big popularity hit, regain some of its playerbase's respect and trust, and generate a ton of momentum for their new season, particularly since the devs are giving themselves much more time to work on a bigger update with the lack of balance work we're seeing in these recent patches. It may not solve all of League or Riot's problems, but would address many major pain points, and show to us all that Riot does listen after all. Should they fail in this, however, in spite of all the feedback given to them at all levels, through all platforms and media, and it will be clear evidence that they fundamentally do not have the players' best interests in mind, and are on a path to permanent decline.

I too would like to see a League that returns to a state where it can generate passion and enjoyment from its players, and encourage people to get together for fun. There are a lot of content creators I miss, and I'd like to see people like Sp4zie and Dyrus (especially Dyrus) go back to posting fun League content. It saddened me to see Dyrus go from intense sadness during his retirement video, to immense joy at returning to streaming, and back to boredom and frustration upon falling out of love with a game he played since the beginning. It saddens me to see someone as toxic as hashinshin become one of the major voices of this community, simply because he's one of the few older content creators who hasn't quit. It also saddens me to see someone like Scarra, who is still visibly passionate about League, talk about it with a palpable sense of finality. These are not the signs of a healthy game, yet there have been many seasons beforehand that were well-liked, even as they were being experienced then. Whatever strategy Riot has been following since Season 6 has been failing spectacularly, and it's time for them to admit their mistakes, and bring us back to a more sane environment. The future of League depends on it.

A lot of this can be illustrated by the Aatrox rework. Very good read, thanks.

DoktorKaiser28 votes

I have no other explanation than them actually wanting to kill the game off. Because that is exactly what they have been fucking doing for the past few months, maybe you can even go as far as past 3 years.

Keevalroy10 votes

maybe you can even go as far as past 3 years.

I would, personally.

VG Crows26 votes

Noone gets it either. It's as if they deliberately ignore core issues and problems present simply to cater to casual audience. Oh wait they actually do that: fast games,low skill floor one shot BS Zoe Zed Leblanc, damage everywhere - all of it caters to casual players who just want to roll their faces w/o any strategy and win on autopilots.Impossible for comeback games are very common. Surrender at 15 was introduced for a reason. They simply use league as money milk right now. It caters so much for Korean inet cafes and casuals it's sickening. Unfortunately nothing is going to be changed unless players leave in masses or simply boycott Riot and stop sinking money to them. Which is how likely to happen? Yeah not so much. Game is in its worst it has been ever.

Paroe25 votes

[{quoted}](name=TrueMortal v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jrJE0uVG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-31T11:25:22.879+0000)

Noone gets it either. It's as if they deliberately ignore core issues and problems present simply to cater to casual audience. Oh wait they actually do that: fast games,low skill floor one shot BS Zoe Zed Leblanc, damage everywhere - all of it caters to casual players who just want to roll their faces w/o any strategy and win on autopilots.Impossible for comeback games are very common. Surrender at 15 was introduced for a reason. They simply use league as money milk right now. It caters so much for Korean inet cafes and casuals it's sickening. Unfortunately nothing is going to be changed unless players leave in masses or simply boycott Riot and stop sinking money to them. Which is how likely to happen? Yeah not so much. Game is in its worst it has been ever.

"fulthy casuls"

Yeah no. Riot isnt catering to the casuals - theyre catering to LCS. They want faster games because their LCS viewership drops if a game goes on longer than 30 minutes per game or 2 hours per sessions.

Riot is extremely out of touch, and nothing short of rejiggering their staff and bringing on new blood (Perhaps challenger players get a special privledge where their input can be given to riot? Eh? eh?) will make a dent in anything. Remember radio shack? Riots become the radio shack of MOBAs. But... I mean just go look for nightblue3s "riot is not professional" story. They played lip service to him - "yeah lets meet up around this time and talk about things challenger jungler main number xx" - and then canceled, without warning, three times before finally ghosting him.

Z3Sleeper22 votes

I mean he's right. They can't fix the game right now cuz worlds is approaching. We can complain about high damage every day every week every month but nothing is gonna change drastically until worlds is over.

Just gotta wait til pre-season and hope damage goes down across the board. I think just reducing how much damage all the runes do might work, but I feel like it's most likely gonna come down to them needing to nerf almost every champion's individual damage that they buffed to match other's damage in this meta.

Also this was predicted ever since the day Ghostcrawler was hired.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4190291&page=1

Dukues17 votes

This is 100% how I feel about the game. Love the video. It depresses me because what he said is all true but it also feels good hearing a veteran high elo player say out loud what I have been feeling all season.

KillerShim14 votes

What I got from this video:

Fire GhostCrawler.

Lil Homie busta12 votes

...It has been dumbed down for casuals...

Correction: It has been dumbed down for kids. Even casuals like me knew how to make decent rune and mastery pages and in the previous system.

EasternBladeStar3 votes

It's a miracle a full toy line hasn't been unveiled yet.

Just imagine Ryze, Garen, Annie + Tibbers, Karthus, all in Masters of the Runeterra -style action figures.

P4 Silent9 votes

Yes! Im actually hate the game.

Vekkna9 votes

I'll just quote myself from playtest thread half a year ago.

{quoted}

Do you guys think any of these are problems with this season?

  • Damage is too high/fast
  • Ambient damage is high and frustrating (eg, comet, aery, scorch, cheap shot)
  • Removing starting resists indirectly buffed the magic damage by ~7% on ADs, hybrids, and AP tanks that never built magic pen
  • Item use/proc damage is too high (eg, gunblade, duskblade, titanic, shiv)
  • High-damage meta indirectly boosting the relative power of cc/mitigation/immunity/untargetable duration without any change in the power budget of these skills. (eg, a 1.0 second stun is extremely powerful when it takes .9 seconds to kill the enemy, but it is fairly weak when it takes 5 seconds to kill the same enemy)
  • Total disconnect between damage, burst, durability, and utility in champion (and some item) power budgets
  • Defense being too kit-reliant while offense is more item-reliant (eg divers get carry/assassin damage from rushing 1-2 damage items while still being durable, but most squishies forfeit any kill-threat by building 1-2 tank items at any point in the game.)
  • Too many damage multipliers in Precision tree causing ADCs to steamroll with a lead
  • Too many "win more" runes that grant more combat advantage when you're already winning

Riot's assessments of preseason and season 8 to date have been largely positive or even self-congratulatory. It doesn't seem like player-facing Rioters experience these issues or recognize them as problems. It's just bizarre, and to me it looks like...

https://media.giphy.com/media/VOq7iem25Z94Y/giphy.gif THIS IS FINE!

charge attack8 votes

It’s not that it’s suddenly harder to carry a 0/10 bot lane - it was always hard.

It’s just that it’s so fucking hard not to chain feed if you get behind because literally nothing (towers lmao) stops you from getting 1 shot over and over.

EasternBladeStar8 votes

Too bad Riot's already made their mind about which direction they wanna take their game.

I hope Scarra will be able to let the false hope die eventually, and move on to better games like the others.

Tychusfindlay9185 votes

{quoted}

Too bad Riot's already made their mind about which direction they wanna take their game.

I hope Scarra will be able to let the false hope die eventually, and move on to better games like the others.

I quite enjoyed the dark souls runthrough. He looked like he genuinely enjoyed it.

Andrey03458 votes

This just got too far. It's not like people just say it's worse and they will quit - they DO quit because it's been bad for few years already and only gets worse. Everyone kills each other faster and faster with every patch and it mostly comes down to who has better reaction and who can land his abilities earlier than the other guy. And after the "outplay" you just take tower in 10 seconds and do same on other lanes and win the game.

Failog7 votes

More cricket chirps from the cowards at Riot

fjZBSPlQ9b6 votes

This video watches like a break-up haha

Anatera6 votes

I can't wait to see what half ass cookie cutter response Ghostcrawler vomits out this time.

hotarse6 votes

You know things are bad when one of Riot Game's biggest shills is throwing shade at them.

Zecora6 votes

It's nice to know even pro players are fed up with Riots bullshit. But it won't be enough. The term "To big to fail" comes to mind here. Doesn't matter if hoards of people leave the game, they'll fudge the numbers and pretend everything is fine. As for me, I quit when the last of my friends stopped playing. They were the only reason I'd get on. Now they're gone because of this bullshit meta and all these changes, I have nothing to come back to.

muted team chat5 votes

pretty good points being made in that video.

I hadn't thought about his point that Riot is going to wait for Worlds to be over before correcting this situation. Kinda made me sad to realize this is for-sure the meta until Novemeber or December.

iTaLenTZ5 votes

Looks like a funeral

Ash Lockheart5 votes

I Never believe riot. Anyone can put on a business suit, and show you graphs and make you believe things.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

Yea sure, but you can also look at graphs without business suit, anyone can. If you take the time to interpret this graph yourself then nobody can simply "make you believe things". So what is the point of your comment,? Are you suggesting that it's good to be idiotic and stubborn because then nobody can "make you believe things"? But then what do you believe? If you don't think for yourself you gotta believe something, right? xD

Percentages5 votes

He summed it up in his first sentence. "I never believe Riot." Reading comprehension works wonders...

Kowe The Ewok5 votes

Amen. I've been playing since shortly after the open beta began. I completely agree that everything explodes too fast right now. Time to kill used to be one of the main differences between League and Dota(2), League came out as the more popular game simply because a lot of people preferred the less burst and more counterplay orientated pace of the game.

With the removal of the old runes everything is horrifically squishy right now. Just check some old logs how many people where using a full set of MR@18 runes and what difference it made in terms of durability. At the same time we got exaggerated, but very time-gated tank masteries like aftershock and piss-poor defensive items that don't really help and non-tank to survive noticeably longer.

Riot desperately needs to increase armor and magic resistance across the board. The vast majority of champions is balanced around the old rune system - and having a full set of armor runes was essentially must (or the RISKY tradeoff for live@18 runes). Now they're gone with barely any compensation - and it shows massively in TTK and particularly burst kills. League evolved into Dota and lost what people loved about it, that's what makes a lot of players sad and angry. Increasing armor and magic resist might not be the final solution, but it has to be done to get back into a moderate state of balance. [sg-soraka]

sawdust3 votes

Solo q has just been a trainwreck ever since I can remember... It's equivalent to flipping a coin to get the dub. Also, I have an issue with all these BIG problems going on but Riot goes ahead and makes a huge deal of fixing or changing something that doesnt need changed. And they ignore the big tasks at hand all streamers rant about that. It's been going on since I can remember. Fix the ranked system and penalizing players for other players inting or leaving. It's terrible.

GayFluffyUnicorn18 votes

Nah not really. Ranked was fine before s6. You could carry every game and that was a fact, being good enough always guaranteed you to win. Now we have autofill, tons of onetricks and meta abusers playing the same champ/role every game and climb with their 51% WR to dia+ despite being dogshit at the game. Horrible balance that makes it so hard to compete with meta champs. Just look at the jungle, what can you do against kindred, graves, noc.

So many mechanics implemented to make the game more noob friendly and so you don't "feel" bad about yourself. Everyone gets their powerspike with 1/2-1 item and can just kill anyone even if they are 0/10. Obviously it doesnt help riots report system is a joke. Just yesterday i got griefed by a jungler calling in champ select his buddy is in the enemy team and he is going to wintrade him. In game it turned out to be true the enemy toplaner was the guy he told us he then said the same shit in all chat again and how the renekton paid him 5€ and he is going to wintrade him further. Looking at their match history its actually true. The renekton always wins with and against the jungler. Ofc i reported them but guess what happened. Noone gives a shit. This is just a case of a few dozen i had this season alone its never been so bad. Trolling, inting, flaming.

Anin7778 votes

S6 fucked league more than Riot can imagine. For a whole year, A WHOLE THREE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-FIVE DAYS, we had to deal with Dynamic Queue. It fucked up the elo system. Eloboosting was the order of the day. They destroyed jungle. They broke items. The started add CDR to EVERY. FCKING. THING. Like ffs Riot.

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