Once you reach about Plat 2 or so...
Ban Riven
You'll force dodges or win every game they're forced to play in without her
Ban Riven
You'll force dodges or win every game they're forced to play in without her
Its really sad that this is a true viable strategy for climbing. The prevalence of Riven mains in high elo is disgusting and their inability to play anything else is even more disgusting.
It's proof that she's basically freelo. The auto-cancel they added made her so obnoxiously unduelable except by her clear counters - like Malphite and the literal one time I saw a Taric top - that playing in a lane with her turns into "Gosh I hope her ult's not up so she can't turret dive me - fuck her ult's up she turret dove me".
Riot didn't add animation canceling for Riven. It isn't "legit" method.
It's more of a bug, that Riot decided to ignore cause "reasons" And now alot of retards believe it's a normal, legit thing and scream whenever someone mentions removing it.
It is considered normal by Riot, because they've been there for quite a while. They legitimately balance her around it, and have stated as much - her 2 normal damage abilities wouldn't have such lackluster bases if it wasn't for animation cancelling. 270 (more realistically 180) damage + 170 damage (+ their scaling) isn't actually all that impressive. It's the animation cancels that make them feel like they're good damage when they're fairly sub-par, simply because of how fast it happens.
The problem is not necessarily with the animation cancels in themselves, but their complete ease of use. Anyone can pick up Riven and potentially even accidentally animation cancel. What I could see them doing instead is making it more difficult to utilize so that it takes more skill to play Riven at a good level, meaning good Rivens are rewarded while players that only hear of her power through myths and legends will see her as "that one champ that does meh damage." The current problem came in about 5 months ago through a change to overlapping CC effects, even though she's had animation cancelling for longer than that.
yeah, all you have to do is rebind her laugh to T and you have a free animation cancel
[{quoted}](name=Marik Winters,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xeBAqpiY,comment-id=00070000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-17T21:11:57.525+0000)
yeah, all you have to do is rebind her laugh to T and you have a free animation cancel
LOL this is not animation cancelling. It doesn't give any advantage at all since it doesn't cancel the cast time.
Yes it is, and it does cancel the cast time. Completely.
(Source: several videos, guides, and a couple streams. Specific example here: https://youtu.be/aYWIrm7Nz-c)
That's why I say; there are very few actual Riven mains, that is, people who play her because they actually like her theme, her abilities, etc.
Most of those people are players that abuse Riven to climb up elo, they know that Riven is broken if you know how to fast combo (animation canceling) and thus they abuse that to easily get into higher elos, but then they end up not learning to use anything else. I don't think that those people deserve to be high elo.
Those are the same people who are against any sort of Riven changes, such as getting rid of the animation canceling. Because they know that Riven will not be free elo anymore. And due to that, people who actually love to play Riven end up injured.
If you remove the animation canceling then you remove anything that gives here somewhat of a skill floor. It also means she will have to be compensated since she has been balanced around this mechanic. So by removing the animation canceling you'll make her even worse of a faceroll champ than you already perceive her to be and be done by just about anyone.
She hasn't been balanced around it at all. They didn't acknowledge it as a thing even until recently when they said "Yeah, I guess we'll just keep this a thing". Her nerfs were because she needed them. She was incredibly safe, incredibly oppressive, and incredibly easy to play for just about everyone and anyone could play her stupidly dangerous and get out alive with several kills.
Now it's just people who're "good" with her that can play stupidly dangerous and get out alive with several kills. Removing this stupid mechanic would just mean that the people who are having an easy time would have to actually put some smarts and effort into their play besides, "Yeah, I can outdamage that champ. And that one. And that one. Hell, the only one I can't outdamage is- OH FUCK IT'S RYZE."
I hate the fact that even when I stack armor, Riven still outduels me unless I am playing Malphite or Renekton.
You can't even really outduel her straight up with Ren. You have to hit and run so much early it hurts. Slice in, stun, sweep, dice out. And hope she has to waste half her Q's getting to you.
Thank god for that health boost at 6 or it'd be the entire game.
Well I would argue you that that's actually something good that keeps the matchup interesting. As Renekton, you will absolutely stomp her if you use E in, WQ auto, E out. That is your win condition. Riven will absolutely stomp you if you open yourself up to extended trades with her, that is her win condition. The matchup is determined by which person can pick the right trades at the right time, rather than one completely overpowering the other.
So then why is one of her only counters basically boiling down to a skill matchup when Riven hard counters the absolute living crap out of so many other top laners and they have next to no retaliation measures whatsoever?
Face it, you may not like the idea, but every champ needs just that one at least that they simply can't deal with. With so many different champs with so many different strengths, if not a one of those is capable of fighting back heavy-handedly against a certain champ, then there's no question that that champ does not have a meaningful weakness because if there was one then that champ would be able to exploit it with their strength.
You could use the Lee argument where a champ will fall off later in the game, but Riven doesn't - she just gets stronger, so you're not likely to be suddenly able to stomp her if you weren't doing it before.
Meanwhile, the only champ currently offering this clear-cut counter to Riven is Ryze, and before he would get demolished in lane by her because he had no early game power - now Ryze is considered broken, so once Ryze gets nerfed, it's not likely he's going to be Riven's counter anymore. There needs to be an answer to her versatility with lack of meaningful weakness.
[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xeBAqpiY,comment-id=00070001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-17T16:19:44.451+0000)
So then why is one of her only counters basically boiling down to a skill matchup when Riven hard counters the absolute living crap out of so many other top laners and they have next to no retaliation measures whatsoever?
Face it, you may not like the idea, but every champ needs just that one at least that they simply can't deal with. With so many different champs with so many different strengths, if not a one of those is capable of fighting back heavy-handedly against a certain champ, then there's no question that that champ does not have a meaningful weakness because if there was one then that champ would be able to exploit it with their strength.
You could use the Lee argument where a champ will fall off later in the game, but Riven doesn't - she just gets stronger, so you're not likely to be suddenly able to stomp her if you weren't doing it before.
Meanwhile, the only champ currently offering this clear-cut counter to Riven is Ryze, and before he would get demolished in lane by her because he had no early game power - now Ryze is considered broken, so once Ryze gets nerfed, it's not likely he's going to be Riven's counter anymore. There needs to be an answer to her versatility with lack of meaningful weakness.
How many top laners does Riven hard counter? Vlad? Yorick? Dr. Mundo?
Meanwhile, she gets to get the shit kicked out of her by Garen, Fiora, Renekton, Teemo, Quinn, Malphite, Singed... quite a few champions are at least general counters to Riven. Quinn is a very hard Riven counter, as are Renekton and Garen.
Riven has no true counters
Even her so called counters can be beaten in some way
Garen can have his silence baited and lose early duels; Fiora is squishy Renekton can't straight up 1x1 Riven Teemo is squishy Quinn is squishy Malphite does not deal enough damage to stop Riven by late game, nor he has enough peeling power Singed has a weak early game.
Riven has no true counters
Even her so called counters can be beaten in some way
Garen can have his silence baited and lose early duels; Fiora is squishy Renekton can't straight up 1x1 Riven Teemo is squishy Quinn is squishy Malphite does not deal enough damage to stop Riven by late game, nor he has enough peeling power Singed has a weak early game.
Gold 2 on BR. He clearly knows what he's talking about.
Riven has no true counters
Even her so called counters can be beaten in some way
Garen can have his silence baited and lose early duels; Fiora is squishy Renekton can't straight up 1x1 Riven Teemo is squishy Quinn is squishy Malphite does not deal enough damage to stop Riven by late game, nor he has enough peeling power Singed has a weak early game.
Garen can also anticipate the baiting, cancel the silence into his E, then silence her. That Riven can possibly outplay the Garen doesn't suddenly mean Garen doesn't hard counter Riven. Also, even if she does... so what? She will still take damage from their trades, and unlike Garen has no sustain.
Riven is also squishy (squishier than Fiora in fact), and unlike Fiora generally can't afford to build any defense. Bruiser Fiora is viable and perfectly capable of dueling Riven. Fiora's W turns most of Riven's damage early on back on her, letting her win duels and trades easily, and late game Fiora is far stronger. Oh, and Fiora has sustain.
First of all, yes he can, just not levels 1-3 (maybe not four or five either, less sure on that). Once he reaches six he can easily duel Riven, and btw who gives a shit? The game isn't all about dueling. Singed can't duel Fiora early on either, yet he's one of her stronger counters. A Renekton who knows the match up will win every trade with Riven and sustain any damage he takes back, and will probably kill her come level six.
They might be squishy, but they, especially Quinn, beat up on Riven. A competent Teemo or Quinn will kite Riven through their minion wave (being ranged as benefits), let Riven push, and poke her down.
Malphite is also much better in team fights than she is due to his tankiness and CC. Also, stop pretending that you have to counter a champion in every way post-laning phase. Malphite can't peel, but unless your team comp sucks you should have someone who is perfectly capable of peeling Riven (like Alistar for example). If your team comp sucks so much that you can't peel Riven, that isn't a problem with Riven. It's a problem with your shitty team.
Yet he also beats Riven in most games. A good Singed won't die to Riven in lane, can proxy farm to make Riven really feel the pain of being squishy with shitty sustain, and gets too durable for Riven to 1v1. Since Riven pushes like a badass it is also a fairly simple matter to cheese her into your turret with Fling.
Riven isn't the unstoppable boogieman you think she is. She's strong, but perfectly manageable.
I can see your points, but it is importante to note that taking into account Riven's shield, she is tankier than Fiora. Also, who says that Riven can't afford to build any defense? Once I've met with a Riven, I was using Irelia - Early game it was rough, but then I could outduel her - until she purchased Randuin's Omen. My lack of armor penetration and damage items (other than Trinity Force) was my downfall as Riven had enough defense to whitstand my damage yet she had enough damage to break through my defenses and kill me.
I can see your points, but it is importante to note that taking into account Riven's shield, she is tankier than Fiora. Also, who says that Riven can't afford to build any defense? Once I've met with a Riven, I was using Irelia - Early game it was rough, but then I could outduel her - until she purchased Randuin's Omen. My lack of armor penetration and damage items (other than Trinity Force) was my downfall as Riven had enough defense to whitstand my damage yet she had enough damage to break through my defenses and kill me.
All right, first of all: is this your main account? It occurs to me that you're level 8. I'm not trying to shut down your argument by pointing out inexperience, but if you're legitimately only level 8 your experience is vastly different from the one I'm accustomed to, where everyone has full runes and mastery pages. If you are indeed level 8, we're not even playing the same game.
Riven's shield early on doesn't block a whole lot of damage. It is incapable of blocking all of the damage from Fiora's double Q combo alone, and naturally Fiora could easily wait until the shield is down to do the next Q. Keep in mind that much of Fiora's damage is sustained damage due to her auto-attacking nature, and the shield isn't reliable against sustained damage (for this reason Swain probably counters Riven as well).
Building a single defense item isn't sacrificing anything for Riven. Most build a guardian angel. She took the randuin's to specifically counter Irelia, since Irelia is auto attack reliant, and the health helps counter her true damage.
Care showing the game you are referencing?
The ones who know how to animation cancel can still outduel me as Malph until I have 200 - 250 armor worth of items. It's absolutely stupid how much damage she can still put out with a pickaxe when I'm running 22 Armor runes and a chain vest.
aint nothing was once 300 armor malph and 4k hp still got rekt by riven pure logic OP
I could finally deal with her when I was full build 600 Armor...lol...
{quoted} The ones who know how to animation cancel can still outduel me as Malph until I have 200 - 250 armor worth of items. It's absolutely stupid how much damage she can still put out with a pickaxe when I'm running 22 Armor runes and a chain vest.
I could finally deal with her when I was full build 600 Armor...lol...
And then you realize that Animaton cancelling gives you more burst but less sustained damage, and fast combo only works when the opponent is standing still for 3 seconds and even then its gives you a disadvantage if your opponent has some sustain (you deal more damage and take more damage, you can cancel your opponents autoattack by using W+AA+3rdQ without the fast combo, but if you do the fast combo you will both take more damage which is a disadvantage for Riven since she has no sustain, and if you cancel your autoattack you will lose the trade really hard)
Also its impossible to do the fast combo against attack speed slows. LOL you have no idea what you're talking about
So what you're saying is that even bad Riven's that can't combo correctly can wreck a pure tank early without any effort.
It's almost like I'm talking about this through actual experience.
So what you're saying is that even bad Riven's that can't combo correctly can wreck a pure tank early without any effort.
It's almost like I'm talking about this through actual experience.
?????????????????????????????????????????????
All tanks beat riven at every point of the game.
Confirmed terrible Riven main.
Confirmed terrible Riven main.
lol i got to d1 with riven on a better server while youre stuck in low elo after 5 seasons.
[{quoted}](name=SIREN Berta,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xeBAqpiY,comment-id=00070001000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2015-06-17T20:10:45.574+0000)
Yes I got permabanned. I'm 99% sure Riot Cosantoir permabanned me for being a girl, he's a misogynist.
Dunked irl tbh atm imo imho iirc smh lol lmao lmfao rofl brb g2g bbiab afk
Just spin it to win it

sounds like you need 100% more spooky ninja in your lane life my friend 
lol no, thats not how it works.
If they removed her animation shit, and her winrate, pickrate, banrate, and average ingame statistics don't take a massive dive, she gets nothing.
If they do, she gets slowly buffed over time until she is balanced.
This is called balancing. Very simple.
No if you take out the animation canceling her rates will drop. A lot of her damage now dies off and becomes much easier to deal with. They would HAVE to do something to compensate for the loss in damage. You really must not know how much the cancellation is inbeded in her kit and how much it really deals.
Actually, animation cancelling is her skillcap. Her skill floor is how easy it is to play her at all, and 90% of people don't exploit A.C. while playing Riven.
Yes it brings down her skill ceiling a lot, but it also makes her skill floor lower since she would for sure get buffs and would become even easier to do riven things. The whole range of floor to ceiling will be brought down.
That's why I say; there are very few actual Riven mains, that is, people who play her because they actually like her theme, her abilities, etc.
Most of those people are players that abuse Riven to climb up elo, they know that Riven is broken if you know how to fast combo (animation canceling) and thus they abuse that to easily get into higher elos, but then they end up not learning to use anything else. I don't think that those people deserve to be high elo.
Those are the same people who are against any sort of Riven changes, such as getting rid of the animation canceling. Because they know that Riven will not be free elo anymore. And due to that, people who actually love to play Riven end up injured.
How do those people not deserve elo? They take what works for them, and play it. They play what's strong. It's being adaptive to what works well, and I think it's a good tactic.
They don't deserve that elo because they are just abusing a broken champion that has a lot of potential to win games, nothing else. They aren't doing any effort to deserve that elo. They don't learn other lanes (you don't have to be an expert on every lane, but you must be prepared to play every lane), they don't learn how to communicate with their team or how to teamfight, they don't learn other champions on the situation that Riven is banned, they end up being essentially that; when they play Riven, they play like a Challenger. When they play anything else, they play like a Bronze.
They don't deserve that elo because they are just abusing a broken champion that has a lot of potential to win games, nothing else. They aren't doing any effort to deserve that elo. They don't learn other lanes (you don't have to be an expert on every lane, but you must be prepared to play every lane), they don't learn how to communicate with their team or how to teamfight, they don't learn other champions on the situation that Riven is banned, they end up being essentially that; when they play Riven, they play like a Challenger. When they play anything else, they play like a Bronze.
So, you are saying 98% of high elo dosen't deserve it? Most of them are one trick ponies, it's simply the more efficient way of climbing.
http://puu.sh/istAW/0e96bc5070.png
In diamond, NA, she only has a 15% popularity, which mean you see her 1/7 games.
Yeah that's soooo much.
http://puu.sh/istAW/0e96bc5070.png
In diamond, NA, she only has a 15% popularity, which mean you see her 1/7 games.
Yeah that's soooo much.
"Only 15%"
lol
Which means only once ever 6.666 games.
So every game averaging at 30 minutes, you'll only see her one every 3.5 hours you play. If you were to play 24 hours at 30 minutes a game non stop, you'd only see her ~7 times out of 48 games.
That's not a lot in any scenario. You probably throw games at a much higher rate than that.
Which means only once ever 6.666 games.
So every game averaging at 30 minutes, you'll only see her one every 3.5 hours you play. If you were to play 24 hours at 30 minutes a game non stop, you'd only see her ~7 times out of 48 games.
That's not a lot in any scenario. You probably throw games at a much higher rate than that.
That is an absurd amount regardless.
In a ranked game, 6.436297x10^20 combinations of champions exist.
5.1490376x10^18 contain Riven.
Divide them out, you'd expect a Riven to exist in .8% of all games.
Instead, she appears in 15%.
Do you really not see a problem with that?
She's overrepresented by more than an order of magnitude.
That'd be 8%. Or do you really think Zilean and Elise are semi-popular picks in combined soloQ?
1/125 = .8%. But with 10 champions per game, the calculation is actually 10/125, because any of the 10 can be a Riven, and she can't show up twice in ranked, nor can anyone else.
or lose if they're on your team.
[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xeBAqpiY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-17T06:01:31.512+0000)
or lose if they're on your team.
Sometimes you gotta lose a little LP to find out who your true enemies are
It's like Shaco and Vayne, and hell even Fiora.
I think it's called the Shaco Effect?
I've always called it the vayne payne paradox.
When a Vayne is on your team, you know you're going to get a ton of vaynespotting points When a Vayne is on the enemy team, it's pretty much Gosu, Doublelift, and Piglet all combined to form some kind of unkillable mega Vayne
It's like Shaco and Vayne, and hell even Fiora.
I think it's called the Shaco Effect?
Aw comon. There's a lot to playing Shaco, it's not like you're just abusing a single gimmick to become a one-trick pony. Besides, jungling already demands a high amount of game knowledge, and Shaco even more so. That would translate well to just about any jungler.
I find it hard to believe that a high ELO Shaco main couldn't just lock in Xin Zhao and still perform at a high ELO level. I've watched a lot of Shaco streams and they don't seem to struggle when he's banned.
I know that Shaco is definitely not easy.
The Shaco Effect is, well, good Shacos on the enemy team and bad Shacos on your team. Nothing against the Jester, I swear.