Boards›Gameplay

We've heard of Power creep and Mobility Creep, now let's talk about Knockup Creep.

FalconPawwwwnch··76 votes·5,716 views

Yes, you heard me correctly, Knockup Creep. So what exactly is Knockup Creep? One would most likely guess that more and more champions have knockups now than ever, and to that I'd say, Yes you are correct! Let's take a look at the original 40 champions from beta shall we?

Alistar, Cho'Gath, Blitzcrank, Malphite, Janna are the only 5 out of the original 40 that had knockups, one of which is an ultimate and one of which is single target. That means 4 out of the original 40 had Aoe knockups. That's 10% AOE, 12.5% Total.

Fast forward to champions released in 2010 + 2009.

Xin Zhao was the only champion released in 2010 with a knockup. Now makes it 6/66 for 9.1%% total knockups and 4/66= 6.1% for aoe knockups

Counting 2011 makes 90 total champions, and Jarvan, Fizz, Riven, Wukong, Lee Sin are released with knockups. Jarvan, Riven, Wukong, Lee Sin have aoe knockups, while Fizz's only technically knocks up the person targetted. 11/90 = 12.2% total knockups. 8/90 = 8.9% aoe knockups

Counting 2012 makes 109 champions total, and Diana, Lulu, Nautilus, Sejuani, Zyra, Nami, Vi are released with knockups. All of these except Vi are AOE, making 18/109 = 16.5% and 13/109 = 12.8% of champions have an AOE knockup.

Now let's count the rest of them. 123 Total counting Aatrox, Azir, Braum, Kalista, Sion (reworked), Yasuo, Zac, and Rek'Sai. Every single one of these is an AOE knockup.

Meaning 21.1% of champions have a knockup = 26/123, and 17.1% = 21/123 have an aoe knockup.

The % of champions that have a knockup has increased by 70% since beta, and has basically DOUBLED since season mid season 1. This is insane. What makes it worse is that out of the last 15 champions released + Rek'Sai = 16, 9 of them have a knockup. Yes. 56% of the last 16 champions released have a knockup, and 8/16 (Yes, HALF of them) have an AOE knockup.

Recall this list does NOT count knockbacks, only knockups. I.e. Gnar, Darius, Tristana, Vayne, Singed, Volibear don't count. These are NOT considered knockups by the client or by lol game sites. If you want to know how many champions have been released lately with ANY CC that isn't countered by tenacity, let me warn you you'll be grossed out by the number.

Now the question you, reader, may ask is, "But why did they start adding irreducible CC everywhere Falcon?" I don't know completely why but I have a hunch that Irelia had something to do with it. For those who don't know she was really dominant in late season 1 and throughout season 2. Since Defense Masteries + Treads + Passive meant 65% tenacity, you pretty much couldn't CC her. But then again that's just a hunch. Also the fact that adding knockups on every damn champion is a indirect buff to yasuo for #biglcsplays without actually having to directly buff him

**tl;dr The % of champions that have knockups has skyrocketed since beta and basically doubled since mid season 1, with over half of the last 16 champions released having a knockup. **

Discuss

97 Comments

Zp6HE5Qn3B19 votes

It's clearly apparent that the quality of champions and complexity of their kits has changed immensely from this game's release up to now.

The problem is currently much more than knockups. If a reasonable way to judge champions power of influence in changing the flow of game were to be created, you would see a huge deviation that would correlate directly to champion release dates.

This has been addressed by Riot before, but it may be semi intentional.

SmokingPuffin17 votes

Riot is indeed spamming knockups.

The reason is pretty simple -- knockups are more readable and more visually impactful than stuns.

Also Yasuo.

I do like that you found a way to bring this back to nerfing Irelia.

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

I'm guessing right now, but I think they are having all of these knock-ups BECAUSE of Yasuo's Ultimate: IT'S USABLE THROUGH KNOCK-UPS ONLY!!! They are adding all of these champs in order to add synergy with other champs(Yasuo) that have explicit situations where they can use their ultimate in those situations. Much like Kalista and her Ultimate requiring her Soul-Bound, as well as some of her passives.

shppy7 votes

except Yasuo is perfectly capable of executing his ult through his own kit with no one else's help, and does so in a way that's comparable to how most everyone else has to use their ults (aiming and positioning).

It's really rather stupid that in addition to having that 'normal' means of ulting in his own kit, he also gets to ult off anyone else's displacements as a shortcut. It's something very few other champions get (pretty much only Oriana has a comparable shortcut), and something Riot absolutely should not be adding more displacements to cater to (not that they are adding more displacement just for Yasuo, they've been overloading new kits with displacement since long before him).

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

But in the Yasuo case you gotta think of it from the other perspective as well. And by that I mean the fact that he can't use his ultimate unless someone is knocked up. How many other champions can u name that require the target to be knocked up to cast their ultimate?

Basically I'm saying that it isn't a shortcut if his teammates knock someone up for him but moreso a requirement to allow him to actually cast his ultimate whereas every other champion can cast theirs regardless of whether a target is cc'd or not.

Junkο1 votes

Or you can just Q, Q again then EQ and here you have your undodgeable knockup unless the enemy champ flashes.

Yasuo ult is one of the most powerful ults in the game, extends a knokcup duration, refreshes his shield, gives him huge armor pen (he crits every hit late game on top of that), If they ever get rid of the condition it's gonna need to be seriously nerfed.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Um.. yes that's how his ult works i guess. Thank you lolwiki. But the topic we have here is him being able to ult off other people. Sorry about the confusion.

Junkο4 votes

Ah okay. My bad

shppy1 votes

you're not quite getting this, so allow me to clarify it a bit.

Most champions have to use their ult by getting into position and/or aiming in some regard. Yasuo's ult by itself does not require either of these patterns, all there is to it is 'hit R' when a champ is knocked up and the targets are struck regardless of aim and virtually regardless of position...

However Yasuo's third Q is his own personal setup to his ult... when you're fighting Yas, you're dodging his third Q to not get ulted, you're not dodging the ult itself. He has to aim that third Q, he has to get into position for that third Q... basically, the patterns for landing it mirror those of most other champs' ults. Look at it from the perspective of his third Q being his ult (because it basically is, assuming his ults' cd is available) and you'll see he has pretty much the same level of 'normal' access to an ult as everyone else, knockup-requirement or not.

But Yasuo gets a shortcut from other people using displacements, allowing him to not have to worry about aim or position or anything as long as someone else lands a displacement for him... this is something most other champions can't do. So in addition to getting the 'normal' patterns of accessing his ult through his own kit, he gets an extra shortcut through other champs' displacements. The so-called 'restriction' to his ult isn't a restriction at all, it actually expands the number of ways he's allowed to access it.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

But Yasuo gets a shortcut from other people using displacements, allowing him to not have to worry about aim or position or anything as long as someone else lands a displacement for him... this is something most other champions can't do.

Malphite can press R and hit the enemy regardless of position. (Don't you dare say that takes skill to hit) and so can WW, Vi, Lissandra, Malzahar, Ashe, Sejauni etc.

So why is Yasuo's restricted ultimate better? Well it seems "you're not quite getting this, so allow me to clarify it a bit."

What if all those champions had the requirement of a knockup in order to be used? Would they be "OP and have too much access to them" then? Yasuo still has to decide when the right time is to ult just like anyone else. The only difference is he can only do it when someone is knocked up. It's not like his ult has massive range over everyone else either. He still has to be in position.

Would you like it more if his ult was click target like everyone else instead? It'd probly be less OP since he'd have less access to it (/sarcasm).

shppy3 votes

What if all those champions had the requirement of a knockup in order to be used? Would they be "OP and have too much access to them" then? Yasuo still has to decide when the right time is to ult just like anyone else. The only difference is he can only do it when someone is knocked up. It's not like his ult has massive range over everyone else either. He still has to be in position.

Wow, you really don't get this in the least. YASUO HAS HIS OWN KNOCKUP, and it's a damn good one at that; with the nature of that knockup and the nature of his ult, he already has a means of landing his ult entirely from within his own kit that parallels almost everyone else's ult patterns, including those you listed. This is in addition to having means of landing it from other peoples' knockups.

This is in no way comparable to making all those other champs' ults require a knockup to use; those other champs (besides Sej and Vi, whose displacements are way weaker than Yas's) don't have displacements within their own kit, they would be entirely dependent on other champs to access their ult, unlike Yas; making their ults only available on knockup would only be comparable to Yas's ult if Yas's third Q didn't have a knockup attached. Not only that, but all those champs still would have to get into reasonable position and/or aim in order to ult while fulfilling that knockup condition, which is more than can be said for Yas's ult.

Yas's ult usages can be separated into two distinct cases: those where he ults off his own Q knockup, and those where he ults off other people's displacements.

The ults off his own Q are virtually JUST LIKE everyone else's ult patterns, including all those you listed. It requires aim and reasonably prepared/risky positioning to land the Q and therefore activate the ult. In this case, the knockup aspect is practically irrelevant, it's not 'knock up the target and ult', it's 'land the third Q-> press R'. It's extremely similar to most other access routes to ults.

Those off of other people's displacements are just extra access routes that very few other champs parallel; the knockup 'requirement' is just giving him more ways to land an ult than most champs have available, while not really restricting his personal usage (landing his 3rd Q) much at all.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

You still don't get it. He still has to knockup to ult. His target still needs to be knocked up in order to ult. His ult is still unusable entirely until someone is knocked up. Regardless of CC in the kit or not, a requirement is a requirement and is in no way a buff to it's usability just because the requirement is a broad and semi-easy to fulfill one.

Vi has her own knockup. Should she have to land it before she ults? Velkoz? Sejauni? Would making it so they can only use their ults when they or an ally knocks up an enemy champion make their ults better? Because being able to use their ults whenever they want makes their ults far less useful right?

the knockup 'requirement' is just giving him more ways to land an ult than most champs have available,

No, it means he can't use it unless he knocks them up. I don't know what's so hard to understand about it. Less requirements = easier and better. Vi can land her ult on a target that gets knocked up AND on targets that aren't knocked up. But it's somehow worse than Yasuo's because she isn't limited to only using it on airborne targets? What?

Please use logic. That is all I ask. This isn't even an argument. Facts can't be disproven.

shppy2 votes

You're trying to argue that Yasuo's ult with the knockup requirement is more restricted than Yasuo's ult would be if it had no requirement at all. NO SHIT SHERLOCK. That's not the point of ANYTHING I've ever said.

MY point is and has always been that Yasuo's ult has greater usability than OTHER PEOPLE'S ults because in addition to his personal avenue of using landing his third Q to access it which is comparable to everyone else's ult patterns, he gets an extra avenue via other champs' abilities.

This is in no way a comparison of Yas's ult with a knockup requirement to Yas's without a knockup requirement, nor is it meant to be a comparison of other people's ults without a knockup requirement to their ults with knockup requirements. This is a comparison of the accessibility of Yas's ult with its knockup requirement to the accessibility of other people's ults with their positioning/aiming requirements, and the fact that Yasuo's is generally has much more access routes because of that.

Good job arguing that 4>3, but most of us are already well aware of that. I'm arguing as to why x>y, try to keep up.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Agh! Ur like, halfway there. You learned that 4>3 but then you went and said 3>4 again >.> C'mon man you can do it.

This is a comparison of the accessibility of Yas's ult with its knockup requirement to the accessibility of other people's ults with their positioning/aiming requirements, and the fact that Yasuo's is generally has much more access routes because of that.

Oh gawd. So you're saying that "Yas's ult with its knockup requirement" is MORE ACCESSIBLE than "other people's ults with their positioning/aiming requirements". Are you even listening to yourself?

MY point is and has always been that Yasuo's ult has greater usability than OTHER PEOPLE'S ults because in addition to his personal avenue of using landing his third Q to access it which is comparable to everyone else's ult patterns, he gets an extra avenue via other champs' abilities.

^ is what you said. Another classic 3>4 statement. C'mon lets use our brains here. I'll try to baby step it for you.

MY point is and has always been that Yasuo's ult has greater less usability than OTHER PEOPLE'S ults because in addition to hispersonal avenue of using of his REQUIREMENT of landing his third Q to access it which is definitely not comparable to everyone else's ult patterns. But he gets an extra avenue via other champs' abilities to make filling his REQUIREMENT OF A KNOCKUP easier.

Yasuo's ult: Requires target knocked up

Everyone else's ults: No requirement

^ see that? 4>3. No requirement > requirement. No shit sherlock right? lol

My answer was always X but for some reason you still can't figure out Y.

Zoof1 votes

You keep saying that other champions have no requirement on their ults, and SHPPY is trying to say that you are thinking of Yasuo's ultimate wrong. Think of it more like say lee sin's q, he can activate it (like yasuo's third q) and provided it lands, he can cast another ability (second q for lee, ult for Yasuo).

I don't know what you mean by saying other champs has no requirement to ult either. Veigar needs mana, Poppy needs an enemy to target, often not being her actual target to reduce damage taken, Draven/Ezreal/Ashe all require mana AND the actual skill to land their ult at all. The point that you seem to not be getting is that yea sure Yasuo can't ult whenever he wants, but he can do it somewhat reliably and to me this seems fair considering how his ult has a pathetic cool down, and can potentially be activated every 5ish seconds come mid/late game (referring to tornado).

Overall, what we're trying to say is that Yasuo's ult requirements, are just as real a thing as any other champion, just it's done in a different manner (rather than mana and high CD, it's free and low cd, plus gives 50% BA/pen, but needs a knockup). To finish it, the issue we have is that it's crazy that he can ult off of other displacement, when he can do it easily himself (And for the love of god, understand that hitting that third q is the fucking requirement, same as how veigar needs mana and decent range). Like imagine if a mage could just ult you, since a nearby ally has enough mana, or riven can pop ult, since someone nearby has their ult up (her only requirement is CD).

I just don't get why you can't understand this concept, sorry man.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

You're the one unable to grasp the concept fool.

You say Yasuo's only requirement to ult is for someone to be knocked up while others have the much greater requirements like mana and positioning/aiming. And yet you fail to realize Yasuo goes melee onto the enemy's face when he ults, can only ult to enemy champions, can only ult to knocked up units and has to be in range in order to ult.

So stop deluding yourself into thinking his ult is more usable than Malphite's or even Ashe's. If you think Malphite or Ashe's ults require aim in a teamfight you're dead wrong. Noone is going to be able to dodge a cast time-less ult. Yasuo's however requires the enemy to be hit by a knockup. Almost all of which are totally avoidable save Malphite's or Nautilus's or Vi's etc. But is it Yasuo's fault those ults are undodgeable? Nope.

But the point here was he's saying his ult is more usable than any other champion's when he has the requirement of someone to be knocked up as opposed to someone without that requirement. Idk why it's so hard for you people to understand that if he didn't have that requirement AT ALL he would have a Malphite ult. Have you put together what that means yet? No? You're still too foolish to understand simple 2 > 1 concepts? It means Malphite's ult is better than Yasuo's ult.

Now before you go full re7ard again and say "But Yasuo can ult off any knocked up target that he doesn't even knock up". WELL SO CAN MALPHITE. But Malphite can do it off ANY TARGET REGARDLESS OF KNOCKUP.

Like imagine if a mage could just ult you, since a nearby ally has enough mana

Uh, okay Mr. Mentally challenged. Guess what? Every single champion in the game falls under what you just said. So not only can I imagine it, but it's already implemented. Is Syndra OP cuz she can ult someone who Malphite ulted? Is Riven OP because she can cast her ult if someone gets knocked up? Is Veigar OP cuz he can ult an airborne target?

No. no. no. no. and no. ANY MAGE CAN USE THEIR ULT ON A KNOCKED UP TARGET. They can also use them on non-knocked up target. Yasuo, however, can ONLY use it on knocked up targets.

Are you so special that 1 + 1 = 2 doesn't apply to your world? Requirement < no requirement. Requirement that can be achieved through other's actions < no requirement.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY. A REQUIREMENT IS STILL MORE REQUIRING THAN HAVING NO REQUIREMENT. ITS. SO. SIMPLE.

Get. It. Through. Your. Thick. Skulls.

Lee Sin Q is a basic ability btw. And my use of "Malphite" can be replaced by any other champ.

You guys are cancerous.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

derp

shppy5 votes

That's not quite all of it.

They indeed say knockups are more readable, and that is to an extent true (although it's really an awful justification... adding in such a higher-potency cc simply to depict things with more clarity? That'd be like making Lux's skillshots easier to see but inexplicably doubling their damage, and claiming it simply makes them 'visually impactful'). But that's not all of it. The other main reasons are:

-displacements interrupt mobility mechs, so 'knockup creep' competes with 'mobility creep' for new champs. Of course, this is atrocious design, leaving immobile and displacement-less champs to the wolves while just providing even more reasons to use newer champs and their displacements (and mobility). They're using 'knockup creep' to try to keep 'mobility creep' in check, but the reality is it's just having a parallel effect, creating little reason to use champs without displacements in the same way mobility creep creates little reason to use champs without mobility... it's just going to expedite the rate at which the have-nots get phased out.

-knockups are easier on ranged champs, relatively speaking. We're all aware Riot has a ranged bias, they're not exactly subtle about it, and knockups are a way for them to shorten average hard cc durations on tenacity-less champs (ranged champs in general) while still maintaining the same durations on champs with tenacity (those with merc's/juggernaut/defense masteries, by and large melees). A 1.25 second stun versus a champ with tenacity is roughly the same as a .75 second knockup, while a 1.25 second stun is much stronger against a ranged champ than a .75 knockup since they won't reduce its duration. By phasing out other hard ccs in favor of knockups, they effectively buff the survivability of the tenacity-less.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

I'm pretty sure Riot would like knockups to be affected by tenacity, but that would require tons of backend work for them so they're just living with the problem.

In related news, tenacity is getting harder and harder to come by. Wouldn't be surprised to see it go away entirely in the near future.

You do have a good point about knockups being better against dashes than stuns.

I don't think Riot is actively trying to nerf melee champions with League of Knockups. It just so happens that being ranged is better than being melee across many different axes. When Riot makes a change without the explicit intention of buffing melee against ranged, ranged tends to benefit.

shppy4 votes

It's not really getting harder to come by tenacity, really. I mean, for years there was only Merc's. SotAG getting it was a nice addition and losing it again kinda sucked, but Juggernaut's brought it back. Plus there's Zephyr.

And I generally don't think they're actively trying to nerf melees with knockups, or with a lot of stuff in general, it just tends to be a byproduct of most of the things they do. I often say they're biased in favor of range, and it's pretty much true, but bias isn't always conscious. Riot just heavily underestimates or outright ignores the differing levels of significance most of their changes have on melees compared to ranges, and generally speaking it means melees suffer for it.

Knockups/tenacity is one of these cases. The per-level-stat changes are another (the increased health that all champs got at level 1 is easier for ranged champs to damage and cancel out, and until level 10 the difference between melee and ranged growth rates dropped, meaning the stat-based advantage melees had over ranged champs in lane was reduced). Jungle changes in general are another, as nearly all junglers are melees and a great many melees only have the jungle as an option for 'laning', and the recent jungle changes were a generalist nerf to the influence of junglers (i.e. melee champs) over the game.

Does Riot realize any of that though? I don't know, but whether they do or don't it is bias.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

The way I see it, being ranged is just handy. I don't think their game designers have an overt ranged bias, they just aren't always focused on melee/ranged balance when making changes and random changes are more likely to favor ranged than melee.

Taking a step back, I think the big problem here is that many melee kits just don't have the tools to deal with the new world. When all you have is a targeted gap closer, a CC, and a steroid, there are many cases where the only thing you can rely on is having better stats. You don't outplay somebody by gap closing on them. They knew you were going to do that, and they have countermeasures prepared.

You'll notice that the melees that have more tools in their box are rarely the source of "melee feels bad" complaints. It's not just mobility, either, although certainly LeeSin Zed Yasuo are proof that mobile melee can fight ranged on even terms. Rumble DrMundo Singed are all pretty interesting champions because they have versatile tools.

Basically, I don't think we have a melee champion problem, exactly. I think we have a bruiser problem, where most bruisers have a kit invented in 2010 or earlier and that kit is no longer versatile or capable enough to deal with modern kits.

TehNACHO11 votes

"Uncounterable CC"

Kinda funny seeing most knock ups can be dodged or averted.

Ironically, it tends to be much older champions that have impossible to dodge knock ups, as almost all the newer ones have the possibility of missing, have a prerequisite, or literally require you to be standing on top of the opposing champion (Or immediately below them, in Rek'Sai's case). While you can argue that there are most certainly many more knock ups than before, the viability of them seems to be tapering off.

Sion is an almost hilariously good example of our transition from actually uncounterable CC to easy to dodge CC. You go from a targeted stun, IMPOSSIBLE to dodge without invincibility btw, to some of the easiest knock ups in the game to dodge if you are even half competent at the game.

Being able to counter abilities, in my honest opinion, should come down to player decision and skill, along the lines of dodging CC when it comes to skill shots or mitigating the user in question for AOE effects like Rek'Sai. To put it into perspective, point and click CC abilities or simply being able to buy yourself out of CC sounds much more obnoxious than abilities you can dodge but can't negate through itemization.

Jakethenight3 votes

If someone is good at dodging, it can be assumed their opponent is equally good at hitting.

MEMEME6707 votes

There are skillshots you dodge, and there are skillshots you hit.

Stuff like Morgana Binding is a skillshot you dodge, as it is very slow and obvious.

Stuff like Ezreal Q is a skillshot you hit, as it is extremely fast.

Of course, the risk//reward on the skillshots is changed to compensate, but this does not mean the onus is always equally on both parties to hit//dodge the skillshot, as it almost never is.

Earl Eulrich8 votes

Ithink it would be less problematic if they would just adjust Knockups to be shortened by tenacity like any other CC.

KevinDelMarr3 votes

Alistar and Cho'gath are examples where tenacity indirectly reduces the effectiveness of their spells. Cho'gath has a 60% slow attached after the KU, so Tenacity helps you recover after the KU. Alistar stuns for .5 seconds after, Tenacity helps a little with that. DIana's knock-up is very short but i's powerful because it drag you in then slows, if Tenacity reduced the pull distance by 10-35%, on top of the fact it reduces the slow after, it now becomes a strong counter.

Riot can do two things to help with knock-ups will still keeping them strong. Reduce the duration of knock-ups slightly and add a slow/root/slow to make up for it. Then simply make Tenacity less effective against the knock-up part (like 1/3 effectiveness) and have full strength against the rest. Instead of Kalista KU for 1.5 seconds, it now knock-ups for 1 second then roots for .5, with tenacity it now KU for .9 seconds with a .325 root, 1.25 total duration.

Of course they would need to do this case-by-case. No one complains Alistar knocks you back and up for a little over a second then stuns for .5 because that's nearly half of his power. Knock-ups should be used a cool looking CC that fits the Champion thematically and is very strong. Throwing it around is not the answer, and maybe it's time to introduce a new CC like Knock-down or Bury with it's own visual and interaction. People are concerned alot about KU because it helps Yasuo on top of it's effectiveness and prevalence.

Narasimha7 votes

On the other hand, the number of champions with point-and-click CC has also fallen considerably, with the most numerous coming from the earliest champs.

Fury and Emperor6 votes

Knockups are not "uncounterable". The counter is: don't get hit by them.

Buying an item isn't counterplay, by the way. Clicking on an item in the shop doesn't require skill.

GloriousKaiser2 votes

That's the counter to every skillshot, man.

Hey man, want to not take damage? DON'T GET HIT BY SKILLSHOTS!!

Fury and Emperor1 votes

That's the counter to every skillshot, man.

Hey man, want to not take damage? DON'T GET HIT BY SKILLSHOTS!!

You just countered your own argument.

Skillshots that do damage have dodging them as their ONLY counter because you can't stop the damage after it occurs, just like skillshots with knockups. If knockups have no counterplay, then neither does damage.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

Exactly, that's exactly what I'm getting at.

You got my point, that's all that matters.

Sooko5 votes

Won't Voli and Singed count? I know its a fling, but you put Diana in there (kind of an AoE pull too). And the victim is clearly thrown in the air...

FalconPawwwwnch5 votes

Like I said, I'm only counting things that are specifically considered by lol websites like lolwiki and other sites along with the client as knockups. Gnar and Singed and Volibear aren't considered as knockups by these places.

HOWEVER, yes, they still are displacements and aren't countered by tenacity. Like I also said, one could easily find out the number of champions with "uncounterable" CCs in the game including knockups and knockbacks and displacements but that's not what this specific article is about.

Anonagon2 votes

Like I said, I'm only counting things that are specifically considered by lol websites like lolwiki and other sites along with the client as knockups. Gnar and Singed and Volibear aren't considered as knockups by these places.

HOWEVER, yes, they still are displacements and aren't countered by tenacity. Like I also said, one could easily find out the number of champions with "uncounterable" CCs in the game including knockups and knockbacks and displacements but that's not what this specific article is about.

Really, you should just count all displacements. They all aren't effected by tenacity, and there has been just as much of a "knockback creep" as their has been a "knockup creep". In fact, knockback creep could be considered more important, because those actually move you, while knockups are essentially uncounterable stuns.

Derrar5 votes

Riot already talked about this in another thread. They said that the champs after Rek'Sai most likely wouldn't include knockups. You can read it somewhere on Surrender@20. Also they are not "uncounterable" as most of them can be dodged, but they are devaluing tenacity. And that sucks for a lot of backline diving bruisers(Think Aatrox, J4 Noc etc)

Long Dong Wukong4 votes

They are uncounterable. The act of dodging them is not part of any kind of counterplay. That is standard for every skill. The difference in skills matters after they hit you.

Every other CC can be cleansed one way or another, and most of them are skillshots. If a displacement ability hits you, you eat the displacement and the micro-stun when you land, and there is no way to avoid the full effect.

They are better than supressions.

Fury and Emperor3 votes

The act of dodging them is not part of any kind of counterplay.

Doing something skillful to negate an enemy's play is the definition of counterplay.

Long Dong Wukong3 votes

You don't get it. Dodging something doesn't matter. It applies to all skills. Reread my post with this in mind

Sozan51 votes

Dodging is a counterplay to skillshot, and while most of knockups are skillshots it doesn't mean that knockup itself is countered by dodging.

For example, compare Zyra E with 3rd Yasuo Q. Both can be dodged (I think they even have similar projectile speed and width), so both are countered by dodging. However, after you get hit with both - you can only do something about Zyra E - which is counter to root mechanic. If you get hit by 3rd Yasuo Q you can't do anything more (which means that the knockup doesn't have a counter in itself).

Just wanted to clear that up. Knockup itself doesn't have a counter - but the skills that apply knockup might have some counter.

Sire Hippington3 votes

just that zyras E lasts longer even with tenacity.... And building a certain item/stat is not counterPLAY I think it isn't bad to shy away from more or less hard counters and go more towards counterplay, as this is one of the fundamental design differences between lol and dota

If one preffers strategical counters via picks or items and map positioning/ovement over mechanically and tactically putplaying his opponent, he should consider switching to dota

Sozan51 votes

I didn't really refer to anything other than dodging a skillshot as "counterplay" (just used a regular counter). I do realize that buying Tenacity or QSS or whatever is not counterplay. I believe the proper term is counterbuilding.

Anyway, my point was to show you that dodging is not a counter mechanic (counterplay) to knockup itself. It is however a counter to skillshots (which most knockups are). I also never had any intention to compare Zyra E and Yasuo Q in other ways then the core of the abilities (so, without numbers pretty much) as both are line-skillshots that apply CC to all targets hit. They both serve somewhat different purpose, but they are used and countered very similarly.

And I do believe that there should be some itemization to counter many aspects of the game, CC being an imporant one. And while I don't like QSS too much (or Zhonya for that matter - both allow you to completely discard the effect of enemy spells), I do like tenacity. I always thought of it as "armor against CC". Also, by your logic we should be playing with no defensive items in the game (since armor and magic resist counter physical and magic damage respectively and health counters damage).

Sire Hippington1 votes

There is a huge difference between armor/mr and tenacity, not neccesary by default, but the way it currently is iplemented. We have a huge number of different items for armor and mr, granting different amounts of armor/mr.

For tenacity however, we only have 3 different items, non of them suited for mages and the others are also not that great in many situations. They also always grant 35% tenacity, which doesn't stack. There is no choice on how to get tenacity, just on wether u get it or not. With S1 style of CC, Tenacity is atleast for melees mandatory, which means they have no choice other than getting that one(or if they jugnle one of two) item.

There would be alot work needed for Tenacity to become a stat providing equal decisions as armor/mr, as we would nee far more items for it.

Sozan51 votes

There isn't much difference between Armor/Mr and tenacity as far as they work. However, as you said, there is a lot of itemization differences between them.

But there is a little bit of choice for the tenacity:

1 of the items (Mercury Threads, Zephyr, Juggernaut Enchancement and Moonflair Spellblade (which for some reason is not available on SR)) The final defensive mastery Elixir of Iron

(also, they stack and can grant a total of 58,5% tenacity for any champion and 75% for Irelia with 3 or more enemies around)

I do agree that we need more options for tenacity. For starters a Moonflair Spellblade could become available on SR (would be a good choice for tanky mages) as I don't see any reason why it's not here.

Sire Hippington1 votes

there is not much choice, if u go deep in the tank tree, you will take the tenacity no matter what, elexire of iron is only icing on the cake if u are fullbuilt or await the final fight, and most champions can only use on of the 3 items on summoners, so again not really a choice to be made, just the question:do i need tenacity or not? and if all cc would actually be affected by tenacity, the answer for melees would always be YES, i need it. so unless you jungle or play a great as-scaling champion, you are forced to mercs.

Therefor i prefer cc beeing balanced around not beeing affected by tenacity(which means shorter in general, tenacity not mandatory) compared to all cc beeing balanced around tenacity and thus lasting longer to still have impact on a tenacity target, which makes tenacity mandatory.

Fury and Emperor1 votes

Dodging is a counterplay to skillshot, and while most of knockups are skillshots it doesn't mean that knockup itself is countered by dodging.

For example, compare Zyra E with 3rd Yasuo Q. Both can be dodged (I think they even have similar projectile speed and width), so both are countered by dodging. However, after you get hit with both - you can only do something about Zyra E - which is counter to root mechanic. If you get hit by 3rd Yasuo Q you can't do anything more (which means that the knockup doesn't have a counter in itself).

Just wanted to clear that up. Knockup itself doesn't have a counter - but the skills that apply knockup might have some counter.

In that case, every skillshot that only does damage has no counterplay, because there's no way to avoid taking the damage after you've been hit. Hm?

Sozan52 votes

In that case, every skillshot that only does damage has no counterplay, because there's no way to avoid taking the damage after you've been hit. Hm?

For 1 - counterplay is the part where you avoid the skillshot - that means that skillshot part itself already have counterplay. Building items/stats is not considered counterplay but it still belongs in counter mechanics (counterbuilding/counteritemization, not sure what it's actually called) and this is what I was referring to.

As for the damage part - there is a counter (counter is not always referring to counterplay, in this case I meant counteritemization) to that, and it's quite an obvious one. Armor and magic resist. You can avoid parts of damage by building those, unless it's True Damage. And if you think about it - tenacity works the same. All three - Armor, Magic Resist and Tenacity reduce the effect of mechanic in question by a percentage (Armor for physical damage, Magic Resist for magical damage and Tenacity for crowd control).

So in short - Knockup is a True Damage counterpart for CC. But unlike true damage for which you can still build health (unless it's Vayne true damage, which IMO is a small design failure) - there is nothing that you can do about Knockup (or any Airborne variant).

Also, mind you that I am not a fan of QSS effect, and I would like it to be gone along with Zhonya. I am all about reducing the effectivness of various mechanics in game by itemization, but I hate when they are negated completely.

Condottiero5 votes

What about slow creep? I think that's an even bigger problem than knockup creep.

KevinDelMarr2 votes

Slows are a way to add cheap CC that doesn't influence the game outside of being to catch or flee in the smallest way possible. It allows Champions who can't scale through damage or tankiness have some sort of presence without making them too strong if they are ahead. Riot has addressed this, basically it's a simple/lazy way to add power beyond damage/tank, without being overbearing.

Kingsgrave3 votes

Knockups are more satisfying to use, never last nearly as long as other types of CC and are typically harder to actually use or land. I think if Riot could redesign everything they would not have tenacity and just have most if not every CC be some sort of displacement.

Displacements are far more exciting than stuns Fears are far more exciting than stuns Roots are far more exciting than stuns Sometimes even Slows are more exciting than stuns which is saying a lot because they are so boring

etc.,

Fırewall3 votes

Displacements are far more exciting than stuns

This exactly. The new and up untill now king of supports brought 2 displacement abilities with him, 3 if you count "displacing" your allies out of your enemies abilities.

Things like Renekton/Leona get boring pretty fast, there's basically no space for improvement, it's repeating the same combo over and over again, nowadays, even Brand's stun and Elise's aswell feel rather, lackluster. Expecially since for a while, it looked like we were entering the "League of Walls"... very buggy walls.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by FalconPawwwwnch

Instead of an ! icon for when an enemy Rengar ults just open up the shop automatically
Gameplay135 comments
315
votes
Can we change Veteran's Scars back to 3% max HP instead of the useless 45 HP
Gameplay142 comments
302
votes
The flat true damage on Vayne's W should be removed
Gameplay157 comments
275
votes
Graves is a better drain tank than Aatrox, Olaf, and Warwick
Gameplay128 comments
230
votes
If Nidalee and Elise got their melee bonus resists removed, Jayce doesn't need them either
Gameplay188 comments
215
votes
So over the last few years, Riot has been trying to give counterplay to all new champs and reworks
Gameplay179 comments
200
votes