Thornmail should apply heal reduction

JavelinJoe·Apr 3, 2016·47 votes·1,648 views

It would make more sense for a tank to have this trait (now more than ever with warlords bloodlust granting up to 20% life steal for free). Since tanks are most likely not going to be able to burst down a carry, let alone chase one down (thank you iceborn gauntlets and swifty boots and all the crit items that give movement speed), being able to mitigate their already great potential to sustain would make the most sense when on a tank. A role who is built around longer skirmishes and absorbing damage, while having a low DPS.

63 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerApr 3, 20166 votes

Thornmail counters lifesteal, it's not meant to overpower it. Otherwise, tanks become unkillable because the class meant to kill them can't even touch them.

Shroom JunkieApr 4, 20168 votes

Holy crap tanks don't die! WHAT A HORRIBLE THING.

This game's community has no idea what roles do anymore besides "damages with AD" "damages with AP" "damages and tanky" and "useless health guy nobody cares about"

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20166 votes

As a top tank main, I find that even if i am the tankiest Garen there ever was, I will still lose to an adc who can kit and has sustain 1v1 where every hit, ability used immediately gets nulled by the sustain, and that is when i'm 2-3 levels above them. Now, before you start crying that a tank should never beat an adc 1v1, remember this, this game is built around "balance", and with "balance" comes to potential to 1v1 any champion to an extent (basically never should be a guaranteed loss for one side). But right now with the sustain and damage, most tanks can not do that making an "unbalance". So if we do not touch the damage but lower the sustain, we should be able to see more of this "balance".

AlwaysByMySideApr 4, 20165 votes

{quoted}

As a top tank main, I find that even if i am the tankiest Garen there ever was, I will still lose to an adc who can kit and has sustain 1v1 where every hit, ability used immediately gets nulled by the sustain, and that is when i'm 2-3 levels above them.

Then you're bad at Garen.

Looking at your Garen games you almost never buy a Black Cleaver, and often get no damage items at all. Consider getting a Black Cleaver. Maybe then you can actually do some damage to the enemy ADC.

MelledoneusApr 4, 20161 votes

Garen does considerable amounts of damage even without any damage items.

AlwaysByMySideApr 4, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Garen does considerable amounts of damage even without any damage items.

To the villain sure, and maybe to people with no defense or lifesteal, but you're not killing an ADC in a team fight with no damage, nor are you doing any damage to people who have built any defense.

LordGeovanniApr 4, 20161 votes

tanks expecailly garen have health and resistances to keep them alive how is it fine that other classes can be tickled by them with no health or resistances and it be okay

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

I always go defense over damage, simply because damage too early can cost you the lane if you fall behind from a gank or something. and cant survive longer than your opponent in trades. Plus sunfire deals enough damage to both farm and harass since it isn't required by you to do anything to work, and can function while you are cc'd. Depending on how the game looks, I can go damage or just keep tanky with a portal and become a split pusher.

AlwaysByMySideApr 4, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I always go defense over damage, simply because damage too early can cost you the lane if you fall behind from a gank or something. and cant survive longer than your opponent in trades. Plus sunfire deals enough damage to both farm and harass since it isn't required by you to do anything to work, and can function while you are cc'd. Depending on how the game looks, I can go damage or just keep tanky with a portal and become a split pusher.

Garen isn't a tank though. If you're not taking advantage of the scaling on his abilities, why play him?

I'm not saying you should always rush BC first. I often don't. I'm saying if you literally build no damage on Garen you aren't using his kit to its full potential at all.

XerShadeApr 4, 20164 votes

Let's also remind him of the 20% CDR on cleaver.

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

I'm not saying that it is bad at all on him. If i feel up to it i do get it. But I find that while it certainly doesn't hurt statwise and is arguably the best item for him offensively, his base stats do more than enough as is if you go full tank and focus on keeping the enemy either divided with a split or soaking up the damage for your carries to do the damage for you.

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

Garen is a tank stat wise. His only real source of high damage comes from his ult's passive and his single target E. He arguably can be considered a fighter, but that is a secondary role where tank is his primary in my personal opinion. Although the wiki says other wise. Using his full potential is only determined by what you want of him. If i want Tank then he can suit tank to his full potential. Same as if her were to go full AD. He, like most of the other champions, are not tied down to a strict role and build path. But ultimately I believe it depends on the situation at hand to determine if her gets a damage item or continues to go tank. Nothing ever is decided until you can see how your team is doing against the opponents. Once you know that, then you can make a decision on what to do.

FefnilApr 4, 20164 votes

Well, Garen is actually a Juggernaut. A Juggernaut is a champion with a durability similar to a tank and a damage similar to a carry, but with the lowest mobility in game. He's not a tank simply because they have different jobs: a tank is a support champion which focus is to disrupt enemy team or protect ally team by being a frontline. Garen's job is to kill enemies, like any other carry.

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

But Garen does have the kit to do a tank's role. Q is a long silence, W is a defense buff, R deters at least one champion from getting close to you. Not to mention he is a giant wall of armor for any carry to hide behind (like with a Jhin or Caitlyn ult. He disrupts teams, when not needed to be a wall of armor, with powerful split pushing. Since his E wave clears like crazy (especially with sunfire) and his Q functions as a movement buff to escape and return quickly and can damage towers and other objectives.

FefnilApr 4, 20162 votes

But that's not a tank kit at all. I think you're misunderstanding what a tank is. Tank =/= tanky. I know, they use the same word, but that's unfortunately what videogame universe put for it. As you said, Garen disrupts enemies with DAMAGE, but that's exactly the only thing a tank doesn't do. A tank uses utility, not damage, to be a threat. A silence as only cc is not really enough to make him a tank. And having a big model doesn't either, because size has different meanings in League of Legends. Last but not least, split pushing is not a way to disrupt, not in the sense we're talking about, and it's not something that special. Every champion can split push. Now, I'm not saying that he can't "tank". Champions and roles are not black or white. He can do some things that a tank does, but with moderate results. If you take Garen and try to play him only as a tank, you simply waste his potential and you'll not get the best of him. I could take Draven, build Frozen Mallet and peel for my team with autos and E, but I guess it wouldn't make me a tank. And if you are still not sure, then look at Garen's ult: it's an ultimate execute, without other effects. Simple and pure damage made to kill. A tank would never have something like this, don't you think?

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

Sure I would, look at other "Tanks" in this game. DrMundo TahmKench Nautilus Maokai to name a few. All these have great regen/shields and either high damage scaling AOEs or %health scaling abilities. There is not a single champion in this game who can only be used as a damage sponge

FefnilApr 4, 20161 votes

Of course they have damage, no champ can work without it. Let's take it from another look: every champ has a power budget, and every each of his parts (stats, abilities) sucks a bit from it. All champs have more or less the same "total power", just distributed in different ways. Now, with Garen, how is his power budget spent? Most of it is for damage, and the rest is for situational big spikes (villain) and for means to secure kills (execution). As you can see, it's geared towards killing. For the tanks you have listed, they all have their "normal damage". And the rest of their budget? Garen got it on his passive villain mechanic. they got theirs spent on big AoE cc and "protect the ally" mechanics. See where I'm going? No damage steroids. Only extra cc and defense. And just to puntualize, Mundo is not a tank. To quote what some rioter I don't remember said about Skarner (or was it Volibear?), he got some tank blood in his veins with his good peeling, but he's not a tank. Mundo's primary role is still killing, much like Garen. He's durable, but all his budget got spent on self-durability, so he's not really supportive towards his team. He's very similar to Skarner and Volibear, and the first even managed to get categorized as Juggernaut. They have good durability and good sticking power, but their kits are still focused on killing, rather than on tanking.

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

Just to let you know, Tahm Kench has a big damage steroid on his ult. And I am curious as to whom you consider to be a true tank.

FefnilApr 5, 20161 votes

And Nautilus has the highest base damage AND scaling of all tanks, but I guess no one has doubts on him being a tank, right? My list of tanks? Mmh... let's see: Alistar Amumu Braum Galio Leona Malphite Maokai Rammus Sejuani Shen Sion TahmKench Taric Zac I think that's it. Remember though that there are very few "pure tanks". Many of them can be more or less called "very heavy fighters" because, well, otherwise it would be boring. There is no pure black or pure white. For example, Alista, Leona and Braum are the purest tank of them all, while on the other end we have Amumu, Sejuani and Shen, with more power invested in damage, but still tanks.

JavelinJoeApr 5, 20161 votes

I can give you some of those. But Have you ever played AP Alistar you can 1 shot people with your combo because of the high scaling.

Pierce The VealApr 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

As a top tank main, I find that even if i am the tankiest Garen there ever was, I will still lose to an adc who can kit and has sustain 1v1 where every hit, ability used immediately gets nulled by the sustain, and that is when i'm 2-3 levels above them. Now, before you start crying that a tank should never beat an adc 1v1, remember this, this game is built around "balance", and with "balance" comes to potential to 1v1 any champion to an extent (basically never should be a guaranteed loss for one side). But right now with the sustain and damage, most tanks can not do that making an "unbalance". So if we do not touch the damage but lower the sustain, we should be able to see more of this "balance".

Tell that to duelists.

That's not how the game freaking works. 1v1 balance isn't a thing. There are strong duelists and weak duelist. Strong pokers and weak pokers. Strong teamfighters and weak teamfighters. Strong objective control champs and weak objective control champs. Lots of cc champs and 0 cc champs.

While I agree thornmail should be more useful, I disagree on Riot's approach to tanks, making them deal more damage based on their tankiness isn't the way to go. dealing damage based on your amount of hp shouldn't be a widespread thing imo.

But thornmail definitely deserves to be more useful.

SpoofghoulApr 4, 20161 votes

dude you just need this item 3147 item 3071 into tank items

also grab this one summoner 14

and thunderlords

then you have so much burst and executes nobody can 1v1 you

not even tank yi

FoxstepApr 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Holy crap tanks don't die! WHAT A HORRIBLE THING.

This game's community has no idea what roles do anymore besides "damages with AD" "damages with AP" "damages and tanky" and "useless health guy nobody cares about"

I don't want to play 60 minutes every single damn game like it was back then when cinderhulk was op and thornmail too.

Shroom JunkieApr 4, 20161 votes

Cinderhulk and Thornmail being a big thing was tanks doing damage. If Riot did like they should, tanks should have low ratios, low base damages besides % damage for laning and jungling, and then they'd be big, unkillable teamfight disruptors.

Cinderhulk was a flop because they added too much damage and tankiness for how cheap it was, so it was in top lane too. If they would do like they should and make tank items for tanks and give bruisers low ratios but high base damages and only slows, speed boosts, or in Darius's case his pull, then tanks would be unkillable CC machines, bruisers would be unkillable but easily kiteable damage machines. As they should be.

You're thinking from the perspective of right now with the bull-crap titanic hydra which gives damage for being tanky and makes no sense. So if they ever buffed them in any aspect, they would probably be OP in some way. Assuming they finally removed TH, Sterak's, and other items they made to make all tanks into bruisers and Zz'rot machines, then they would finally be viable but not OP and games wouldn't last 60 minutes.

PROJECT KatarìnaApr 4, 20161 votes

its rock paper scissors concept tanks beats assassins , assassins/burst beat squishies, and adc counter tanks.

This would be unhealthy and mostlikely get alot of tanks nerfed/premabanned as it would be a tank meta, remember sejuani she got nerfed to the ground because of cinderhulk I used to main sejuani last year before cinderhuld but since the nerfs to her damage and cc and inherit tankiness then nerfs to cinderhulk she does no damage and her ult is extremely hard to land etc.

ExalomaniacApr 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Holy crap tanks don't die! WHAT A HORRIBLE THING.

This game's community has no idea what roles do anymore besides "damages with AD" "damages with AP" "damages and tanky" and "useless health guy nobody cares about"

i dont have a problem with tanks. i have a problem with tanks killing me faster than i can take a way 1/4th of their lifebar

LongHair FoxApr 3, 20163 votes

A heal reduction instead of the damage on thornmail would be ok. It would however turn what it does upside down. Right now thronmail is an earlygame item that is countered by lifesteal. If you put grevious wounds on it, instead of the damage it would be a lategame item that counters lifesteal.

As a second thing: tanks are not meant to kill adc's. Bruisers and juggernauts are, but they can do it without thornmail doing all their work.

JavelinJoeApr 3, 20163 votes

yes but unlike adc's, tanks do not get up to 22% (x8%) lifesteal from masteries (2% from Vampirism, 20% from Warlord's Bloodlust, multiplied by 8% from Runic Armor) each hit.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 3, 20161 votes

And they aren't supposed to. What makes you think that?

JavelinJoeApr 3, 20162 votes

I am saying that they dont benefit from free sustain every attack, and either have to rely on the 3% max health every 4 autos from the resolve tree as their only form of combative sustain, or sacrifice necessary tank based mastery options for the sustain one's, hoping that there already low dps can keep them alive long enough to still fulfill their role as tank.

XPL TurdongApr 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yes but unlike adc's tanks do not get up to 22% (x8%) lifesteal from masteries (2% from Vampirism, 20% from Warlord's Bloodlust, multiplied by 8% from Runic Armor) each hit.

adcs dont run resolve

JavelinJoeApr 3, 20161 votes

I was only showing the maximum potential sustain from masteries. I am aware that 18-0-12 is really rare on an adc, but not unheard of.

ßurstApr 3, 20161 votes

To have that max potential they also need to be under 20% hp which in that case you should be able to kill them easily early game and even mid game.

JavelinJoeApr 3, 20161 votes

you are missing the point, which is that they have free sustain whereas tanks tend to (kinda forced to) not, and before, you would need at least an item or 2 to get that same amount.

LongHair FoxApr 4, 20161 votes

Does it matter? Why would tanks want such sustain? I would much rather have extra cdr for keeping my carries alive.

YumaS2AstralApr 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xcpu2nbe,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-03T22:51:43.941+0000)

As a second thing: tanks are not meant to kill adc's. Bruisers and juggernauts are, but they can do it without thornmail doing all their work.

Tanks should be able to kill ADCs in 1x1 situations if the ADC does not properly kite him. Otherwise, ADCs should do fine against a tank.

About the thread, I don't think that Thornmail applying heal reduction would be a good idea. If it was instead lifesteal reduction it would be fine, but Grievous Wounds is not, because then a heal dependent caster like Vladimir or Swain can risk being affected by Grievous Wounds if he accidentally auto-attacks the tank with Thornmail.

LongHair FoxApr 4, 20161 votes

A life steal reduction would mean that adc's always gets killed by tanks no matter if they kite. Right now if a tank has thornmail and your adc has no lifesteal then the adc cannot kill him. That is going to continue until endgame if thornmail also has lifesteal reduction.

StrawberrycocoaApr 4, 20161 votes

Frankly, I think hard countering lifesteal is EXACTLY what the item needs. Grievous Wounds isn't enough to counter the crazy amounts of self-healing ADCs can get. Christ, they're almost as durable as tanks in a 1v1 because of it.

If Thornmail;s damage applied GW, or even a Healing Immunity debuff, that'd be fucking aces with me.

LongHair FoxApr 4, 20161 votes

And then no one can kill tanks in a resonable amount of time since adc's can no longer shot at them.

StrawberrycocoaApr 4, 20161 votes

There's plenty of health and defense shredding in the game to counter tanks. ADCs will survive.

LongHair FoxApr 4, 20161 votes

Except they wont... since they will be killing themselves by hitting the 4-5k health tank

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

it does not negate the healing it just lowers the amount. so they still heal, just not as quickly

LongHair FoxApr 4, 20161 votes

If you remove the damage on the thornmail then yes. But as i said previously: it becomes a problem if it both deals damage and therefore is countered by lifesteal, but also reduces lifesteal and therefore counters lifesteal.

I dont mind bruiser or juggernauts building thornmail having an easy time killing adc's. But if they are going to do it then their own damage should mean the most, not thornmail.

Shrek LuigiApr 4, 20161 votes

Graves item 3075 item 3047 item 3031 item 3046 item 3156 item 3053 in the botlane would be the dirtiest **** in the history of League of Legends if they implemented this. Rito make it happen

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

Maw already is seeing nerfs on the PBE

Shrek LuigiApr 5, 20161 votes

item 3070

AckelopeApr 4, 20161 votes

Warlord's Bloodlust will rarely be granting the whole 20% lifesteal, you have to be really damn low for it to be doing so, and while it's not something to discount, only mentioning the 20% when you're extremely low on hp is a little misleading.

JavelinJoeApr 4, 20161 votes

That is why I specifically said up to 20% like the description says

AckelopeApr 5, 20161 votes

yeah, you're right. i was just being a nitpicky dingus, as per usual. pardon.