You know the real reason I hate laning against Zed?

The Bearded Bard·Aug 25, 2015·38 votes·2,892 views

He wins the lane simply by being able to buy more health potions than me.

He gets to start with 3, I'm stuck with two. First back he's going to either have a pickaxe and a shit load of pots or a cutlass. Either way I've got to focus on some kind of mana sustain or I'll be oom before I even come close to getting through his bought sustain.

It's not even just Zed, this is why I hate playing against all manaless champions. Zed, Riven, Garen, Kat, Yasuo, Akali, you get the idea. Three of them are even supposed to have 'bad laning phases' but they don't because they can just spam health pots.

Ideally the fix for this would be to make spellvamp good, but that's not gonna happen. Moving on, I really liked the idea to make mana potions cheaper. Do you guys realize it's 35 gold for 100 mana over 15 seconds? That's a bit ridiculous. Or possibly decrease the amount of healing lifesteal gives for minions. Orrrrrrrrrrr make AD as expensive as it used to be.

50 Comments

IcyPepperAug 25, 201521 votes

Hm, sometimes I wonder if mana pots should be somewhat cheaper than health pots (either making them cheaper, or health pots more expensive) as to not make resourceless and energy champions non-reliance on mana too overbearing in the early game.

I dunno.

LuggAug 25, 20154 votes

Brilliant!

WalkingInACircleAug 26, 20151 votes

There might be something to this, but I've also had a Malphite walk into midlane with a flask and 3 mana pots, and that was as fun as my car breaking down.

IcyPepperAug 26, 20151 votes

I'll keep that one in mind if I ever feel like being a complete asshole someday.

But otherwise, I'm sorry you had to suffer that :/

Br4ndonAug 25, 201512 votes

remember the 14 or somethign health pot starts?

Mecha MaIphiteAug 25, 20157 votes

Mordekaiser numero uno

zffvX7xLuZAug 25, 20154 votes

If you go oom that's a you issue. Learn to control your mana by landing skills instead of spamming then complaining on forums.

And no I do not play zed, I play a mana using champ.

Git gud scruberoo

Jk :3

On a serious note learn to control your mana in lane , its not that deep. There is no mana issues with any champ, they all have this resource to make you as a player resourceful with the champ itself, a mechanical implementation itself. I used to complain about ahris mana but controlling it using dorans ring passive as well as using spells productively came to me through practice.

There are no 'mana issues' its just another mechanic to learn control in the game.

The Bearded BardAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you go oom that's a you issue. Learn to control your mana by landing skills instead of spamming then complaining on forums.

And no I do not play zed, I play a mana using champ.

Git gud scruberoo

Jk :3

On a serious note learn to control your mana in lane , its not that deep. There is no mana issues with any champ, they all have this resource to make you as a player resourceful with the champ itself, a mechanical implementation itself. I used to complain about ahris mana but controlling it using dorans ring passive as well as using spells productively came to me through practice.

There are no 'mana issues' its just another mechanic to learn control in the game.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if the enemy buys any form of sustain whether it be lifesteal or healthpots, harassing them becomes a waste as they'll heal pretty much all of it back and you'll go oom before you do anything significant to them.

zffvX7xLuZAug 26, 20151 votes

That's a completely invalid point. Simply because it doesn't exist , that's a problem I have never faced and I have given first blood to riven only to come back 4/1 on her alone as ahri. She's a non resource champ, started pots and long sword. Never once have I gone oom as ahri except when I first played her. Unless I'm a god at this game which I'm pretty sure I'm not , I should be having these problems amongst other people playing resource champs.

Julij2Aug 25, 20153 votes

Start a flask or boots on some champs...

The Bearded BardAug 25, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Start a flask or boots on some champs...

What mage would that work on? It gives you 60 mana. On many of the champions I play ( Ziggs Zyra Anivia Syndra ) that's not even enough for one spell. Yeah you get three of them, but if you're using it for mana you're wasting the health portion.

Flask was made for champions with low mana costs like lane Khazix , Talon champs that go in, take a lot of minion aggro and heal it all back up while the enemy laner can't.

5000000000000000Aug 25, 20159 votes

How about starting cloth+5 pot? You can even do 3 health pot and 2 mana pot, or 4 health pot and 1 mana pot. You'd still have a lot of mana sustain, although you'd be lacking in damage.

The Bearded BardAug 25, 20157 votes

{quoted}

How about starting cloth+5 pot? You can even do 3 health pot and 2 mana pot, or 4 health pot and 1 mana pot. You'd still have a lot of mana sustain, although you'd be lacking in damage.

This isn't an awful idea, but still it doesn't fix the problem that he can build sustain and damage and I can't

5000000000000000Aug 25, 20153 votes

It builds into Zhonya's, so I don't think your build will fall behind too much.

The Bearded BardAug 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

It builds into Zhonya's, so I don't think your build will fall behind too much.

You're right, but I often can't afford to rush zhonyas on any of those champs as their mana costs don't allow it.

5000000000000000Aug 25, 20153 votes

Oh, that's a good point. Have you tried running 9 points in utility for biscuits?

The Bearded BardAug 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Oh, that's a good point. Have you tried running 9 points in utility for biscuits?

Yea I do, again, 20 mana doesn't cut it. I liked the other guy's suggestion, lower the cost of mana pots.

SaiannaAug 25, 20152 votes

I have no idea what kind of scumbag downvoted you.

NarasimhaAug 25, 20151 votes

Speaking as a Zyra main, you don't need a full Zhonya's. Just a seekers is enough, then you can go for your mana/mana regen item of choice.

ComannderShepardAug 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xXrjM8O1,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T03:18:28.199+0000)

You're right, but I often can't afford to rush zhonyas on any of those champs as their mana costs don't allow it.

get item 3191 then go into your mana item. Works wonders against AD mids.

WalkingInACircleAug 26, 20151 votes

Double dorans into seekers usually works for me. The dorans have hp and AP as well.

ks916Aug 25, 20152 votes

Problem for a lot of mages is it's not very effective to buy cloth since doran's gives a bit of ap, health, mana regain which I feel like out weighs the cloth start by a lot. Also after 1st which for me tends to be 1000-1200 gold is if you turn the cloth armour into seekers (900 gold) than you lack mana regain, which loses you lane since he can shove in and harras you more, or shove in and roam. Also solo Q junglers aren't the most considerate about giving blue which blows.

DivewingAug 26, 20151 votes

To be fair, blue buff doesn't belong to mid, but I get your point

Steph9827Aug 25, 20153 votes

don't play a mage then

iltAug 25, 20153 votes

You can never win lane against Zed.

In worst case scenario when he's really behind, he just sits back and farm with his Q.

LuggAug 25, 20153 votes

Or he just roams bot and gets a double kill.

air tigerAug 25, 20153 votes

Yea, it an actual problem.

First back Zed builds damage 100% of the time, most often with sustain. I've never seen a Zed build defensively, because his kit allows him more safety than 95% of champ kits. You build A) Mana regen - You aren't OOM as fast now, but likely your mana/poke won't keep up with his sustain. B) Defense - You're stronger against his offense now, but lack mana regen.

7ha7guy777Aug 25, 20152 votes

Why not both? item 3010 . Hp, mana, and hp/mana sustain on level up. Zhonya's on its own isn't nearly as effective as zhonya's with some hp behind it.

MarshallBanannaAug 25, 20152 votes

he needs to lose his passive on minions

Xela SyabAug 25, 20152 votes

I've found that fighting zed with cho, malz, fiddle, or sivir seems to work. He can't kill you if he's silenced or you can block all his poke that's why he was so big in the meta in the first place. My issue with Zed is that it's too damn easy for him to farm, that passive needs to deal less damage to minions since it's a free minion execute.

JedenVojakAug 25, 20152 votes

"Oh noez, the champions which specialize in 1v1 confrontations are having an easier time fighting me in lane than myself who's balanced around my massive team fight potential. How dare they get to build damage while I'm stuck trying to make my high base damage ranged arsenal have unlimited ammo... that's just so not fair!"

Seriously?

First off, AD costs 50% more than AP. Second all of the champions you listed have large AOE abilities and ranged stuns or knockbacks - yet you're complaining that a bunch of primarily melee single target focused champions don't have to build mana like you do? They have to struggle to get in range to 1v1 their targets, you get to hang back and damage/CC/blow up an entire team.

Play safe, don't feed, farm up with your massive wave clear, group up, win team fights, win the game.

The Bearded BardAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Oh noez, the champions which specialize in 1v1 confrontations are having an easier time fighting me in lane than myself who's balanced around my massive team fight potential. How dare they get to build damage while I'm stuck trying to make my high base damage ranged arsenal have unlimited ammo... that's just so not fair!"

Seriously?

First off, AD costs 50% more than AP. Second all of the champions you listed have large AOE abilities and ranged stuns or knockbacks - yet you're complaining that a bunch of primarily melee single target focused champions don't have to build mana like you do? They have to struggle to get in range to 1v1 their targets, you get to hang back and damage/CC/blow up an entire team.

Play safe, don't feed, farm up with your massive wave clear, group up, win team fights, win the game.

OH LAWDY HOWEVER AM I GOING TO CLOSE THE GAP BETWEEN MYSELF, A LOWLY ZED PLAYER AND THAT RANGED SYNDRA WITH NO ESCAPES? I mean I suppose I could use my W, then if that still doesn't work I can use my ult to dodge literally all of her abilities while simultaneously closing the gap between us, OH WOW LOOK AT THAT IT WORKED SHE'S DEAD.

JedenVojakAug 26, 20151 votes

First off, I imagine reading that post with TahmKench 's voice.

Second...

the point ---------> your head

Finally you could try not throwing everything out in one big shot when Zed has his ult up. I mean, his ult is heavily telegraphed, you know exactly where he's going to appear (behind you) and if that is inside the turret range and you stun him, you will probably kill him, while all of the mark damage is soaked up by your summoner 21 .

MelledoneusAug 26, 20154 votes

Why did someone shoot an arrow between a point and his head? Are they bad at archery?

PennsAug 25, 20151 votes

You know the real reason I hate laning against Akali? She just insta wins by being able to buy cloth + 5. Herassing is no option on basically every ranged champ since in the end her minions do way more damage to you than you do to her, so you have to let her farm and she eats your ass hard because of that at lvl 6 and when she gets gunblade.

blacksnow00Aug 25, 20151 votes

Acutally when you play vs kata she get boots And 4 potions but you get dorans ring and 2 potions so her damage is all from her masteries and runes but you make more damage because of dorans ring so she will use her 4 potions its just equal

I GANK LANESAug 25, 20151 votes

you're not stuck with 2, lmao. buy boots, get 4, buy flask, buy 3. you have more options than doran's lol

SwapShadowsAug 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

you're not stuck with 2, lmao. buy boots, get 4, buy flask, buy 3. you have more options than doran's lol

No that requires thinking and it's something low elo players can't do

Tribbles FoxfolkAug 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

you're not stuck with 2, lmao. buy boots, get 4, buy flask, buy 3. you have more options than doran's lol

How does that solve the problem? The OP has stated they play champs that struggle with mana and HAVE to build some mana-boosting items early on (I recommend Tear for the most part because of its efficiency). Boots + 4 gives you more health potions, yes, but removes a massive chunk of mana, damage, and survivability.

Cloth + 5 is probably the best solution since it naturally builds into Zhonya's. Get Cloth at the start, grab an Amp Tome + Tear next back and go from there, I guess.

CarryAug 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xXrjM8O1,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-25T02:10:16.473+0000)

He wins the lane simply by being able to buy more health potions than me.

He gets to start with 3, I'm stuck with two. First back he's going to either have a pickaxe and a shit load of pots or a cutlass. Either way I've got to focus on some kind of mana sustain or I'll be oom before I even come close to getting through his bought sustain.

It's not even just Zed, this is why I hate playing against all manaless champions. Zed, Riven, Garen, Kat, Yasuo, Akali, you get the idea. Three of them are even supposed to have 'bad laning phases' but they don't because they can just spam health pots.

Ideally the fix for this would be to make spellvamp good, but that's not gonna happen. Moving on, I really liked the idea to make mana potions cheaper. Do you guys realize it's 35 gold for 100 mana over 15 seconds? That's a bit ridiculous. Or possibly decrease the amount of healing lifesteal gives for minions. Orrrrrrrrrrr make AD as expensive as it used to be.

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xXrjM8O1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T02:24:39.600+0000)

What mage would that work on? It gives you 60 mana. On many of the champions I play ( ) that's not even enough for one spell. Yeah you get three of them, but if you're using it for mana you're wasting the health portion.

Flask was made for champions with low mana costs like lane , champs that go in, take a lot of minion aggro and heal it all back up while the enemy laner can't.

Some of the bronzest posts I've ever read. Only reason these aren't downvoted to all hell is that the board circlejerks about "muh resourceless champs OP" 24/7.

Manaless champs have more sustain? Since when does item 1036 +3x item 2003 give more sustain than item 2041 + 3x ?

Why can a champion without mana start item 1036 +3x item 2003 but one with mana can't? The answer is they both can, the champ with mana, say Talon , just often elects to start flask if they are going to take a lot of early harass from range because they want the additional health sustain and gain benefit from the mana sustain as well. Zed will start with less health sustain because flask is inefficient on him since he gains no benefit from the mana.

Also, since you mentioned Khazix , he often starts item 2041 + 3x item 2003 as opposed to longsword vs a ranged (typically mana using) champion because it gives him a ton of sustain vs harass due to the additional mana being converted into health sustain with his W. So Khazix who uses mana, gets 3x150 health sustain from potions, 3x120 health sustain from flask charges, and an additional ~200 or so health sustain from the mana from flask being converted into W healing. I fail to see how this "resourceless champs get to start with more health sustain cuz potions" argument works.

DecritAug 25, 20151 votes

And back in the times Mana pots used to cost more than health and costed 40. always tought why it was more...

SaiannaAug 25, 20151 votes

How about if Mana potion also increased HP regen for 5-10 seconds? Nothing OP!111111.

Just something that would slightly help mana-using champions.

AzteryzAug 25, 20151 votes

This isnt me disagreeing with you but you also get more health you also get the mana return passive for the cost of just having one less hp pot just my two cents

Akali is SO HOTAug 25, 20151 votes

>Akali >Not complete garbage laning phase

Choose 1

The Bearded BardAug 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xXrjM8O1,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-08-25T22:19:05.889+0000)

>Akali >Not complete garbage laning phase

Choose 1

Yea, it's pretty bad, but spamming health pots allows it to at least be safe. Any mana using mage will run oom before killing an akali with 4 health pots.

A Miss FortuneAug 26, 20151 votes

oh i just hate laning against him because he spams shurikens and for whatever reason they can go through units so that theyre even easier to hit than they already are. well, better allow zed to throw two shurikens simultaneously from two different angles.

HateDaddyAug 26, 20151 votes

Honestly, flask isn't that bad on a lot of mages, especially mana starved ones.

I'd actually say cloth + 5 (3hp pots/2 mana pots) is a better alternative. Go item 3191 item 1056 and you've got a nice chunk of HP, AP, armor and decent mana sustain and at that point blue buff SHOULD be an option. This also makes his all-in almost laughable from 100-0, you'd basically need to be sitting around at 20% HP for death Mark + ignite pop to kill you.

I don't really know why people are so turned off to the idea of flask though, even on mages. Sure you lose some damage, but holy balls your sustain in lane is through the roof and against resourceless champions that aren't afforded the luxury of starting flask, this is actually a really good way to beat them.

This is more of a top lane thing but I'll go over it anyway, going flask and getting a cloth armor is like the ultimate F-U to AD top laners atm (especially if you can start a camp, buy flask but don't buy potions, Recall and buy a cloth armor and port back in). It's a really good way to manage in lane and mages typically outscale zed really hard, so if it becomes a farm lane and a push fest, you're going to win that in the long run.

As for his roaming? People gotta be more proactive man, you can roam against a zed.

JedenVojakAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't really know why people are so turned off to the idea of flask though, even on mages. Sure you lose some damage, but holy balls your sustain in lane is through the roof and against resourceless champions that aren't afforded the luxury of starting flask, this is actually a really good way to beat them.

Is this really a thing? I mean, I love chugging on that thing - I wish I could upgrade it into an even bigger flask

HateDaddyAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Is this really a thing? I mean, I love chugging on that thing - I wish I could upgrade it into an even bigger flask

People get worked up behind the idea of losing out on the 15 AP from D-Ring start and in fairness, it's a decent loss in damage. But in exchange, you get so much power in the form of sustain and that's what you're paying for. There are strictly some lanes I wouldn't get it in, like if I was a mage as an example, I wouldn't buy it against fizz he looks to constsntly all-in early. Same vs Leblanc. I'd rather have the HP from d-ring. But against zed, he's mostly all poke until 6 and by then, you should be looking to recall to purchase seekers (or cloth armor + double dorans) That alone will make a big difference in the form of shutting down his all-in and you'll still have the sustain from flask to boot.

Like I said, there are match ups where it isn't good because you want the HP to avoid being bursted, but Zed doesn't burst anything pre-6 and his all-in is pretty laughable unless you eat every single Q he throws.