Her mana costs are so ridiculously high. 85 mana at all ranks for her Q? A free spell every 18 seconds doesn't make up for that. Not only that, her mana regen is so low. 12.5 at level 18. That's awful. And every 18 seconds? Doesn't that seem like a bit of a long time? Especially since it only goes down by one second if you hit with an ability that causes CC (the first part of your Q, the W, and the ult).
Spoofghoul55 votesYou can compare it to Sions healthstacking
Sure he can stack health but has one of the lowest base health in the game, he also has some of the lowest base armor in the game. and that for a tank. Without stacking health you ware twice as weak as the next tank.
Same with Lissandra cool free spell but then when you look at mana cost and mana regen stats it becomes clear that without it she cant even use spells.
Both are prime examples of non abilities/passives. Yes it is an ability, yes it is good, but your base stats are gutted so you pretty much rely on it to compensate.
In the end with normal stats and no passive you would pretty much do the same. So the abilities whilst there dont really do anything but compensate for lame and weak stats. They are essentially non usefull abilities in that sense but rather a hindrance because you have to play around them to even be on par with similar champions.
Actually xPeke30 votesBut his W isn't his main passive. Unlike Lissandra
Lissandra her passive is ultra shit. She has one of the lowest mana regens because it.
Spoofghoul11 votesYou mean how sion is required to die then wait 1.5 seconds to stand up again and run at enemies that kite and spam laugh.
Yea pretty sure Lissandra has a better passive than that one.
Actually xPeke21 votesYou mean the one in which he deals 10% of people their max hp with each hit. and has a speedboost? Sion his passive is not THAT useless. Not to mention Sion has 2 passives, Lissandra only 1.
Spoofghoul4 votes[{quoted}](name=Actually xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8xJNGzA,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-04T20:13:55.200+0000)
You mean the one in which he deals 10% of people their max hp with each hit. and has a speedboost? Sion his passive is not THAT useless. Not to mention Sion has 2 passives, Lissandra only 1.
Ok takes 1.5 seconds to activate not one enemy will wait for that in fack they drop a cc or slow on you the moment you respawn and you will literally never reach anyone.
I think it would be good if his passive would activate half a second sooner and his movespeed buff would last half a second longer. And he should get bonus tenacity in passive form because he doesnt carry his big axe to slow him down :P And maybe die a little slower aswell. Then at least it would require more then a 4 second cooldown soft cc to make you passive non existant.
just to clarify his passive requires him to die, let that sink in for a bit, and then is countered so easy its laughable so when would it actually be usefull to die if i may ask, and if you do how is it usefull that a 10% slow would be enough to stop you in passive form.
His other passive is mandatory to stack in order to be on par with other tanks if you fall behind you litterally fall behind twice as ahrd as any other tank.
In other words he might aswell not have any passives. their usefullness is so extremely situational as in you need 800+ stacks which means your snowballing, Or enemies must be dumb enough to let you hit them with the passive.
Im not saying Lissandra's 1 passive is good, but its already better than Sions 2 passives and that says something.
But yea both are useless ways to hide bad stats so non passives more or less
Actually xPeke12 votesYea, expect if you are 1vs1ing they already used all their CC. Look at Zyra her passive. 10x worse.
junglerboy1620 votesSion's passive is actually one of the best designed in the game.
Sion is a tank. Tanks want to soak as much damage as possible, so having a second life to draw even more CC and damage from the enemy team is any tank's dream. The point of his passive is not that he turns into some crazy killing machine that murders everything when he dies (that would be broken as heck), the point is that he respawns as an aggressive, high durability threat that requires even more attention from the enemy team, forcing them to waste cooldowns and DPS when they normally could/should be killing everyone else on Sion's team. It effectively allows him to be twice as effective as any other tank in a full team fight. If by dumb luck they don't burn CC and damage to kill you a second time, you have free reign to go about smashing in their skulls. His passive basically turns into a lose/lose situation for the enemy team. Only if you are A: Alone fighting a 1v5 with no backup, or B: The last living member on your team (in which case you screwed up badly, the tank should be the first to die if they succeed in protecting their carries) is his passive bad.
Also, you don't seem to get how passives with stat boosts aren't just there to "hide bad stats", they're there to fundamentally change the way you play a champion. Sion's health stacking mechanic allows him to have high early damage (because if he was durable early and had the damage he has now, he'd be broken) and it also acts as a reward system for the Sion player so that a skillful player can scale hard into the late game (P.S. 800 stacks on Sion is easy by 35-40 minutes, especially in the jungle). The bad stats are calculated in a way that allows the passive bonus not to be totally overwhelming in strength early, but be a hefty advantage and distinguishing feature late game
FistOfSharkiesha7 votesSimilar to Kassadin having 15% reduced magic damage but being a "anti mage" without MR/lvl. Zed is a better anti mage simply because he gets MR/lvl and has a useful passive.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesActually, Kassadin's passive works better for his intended role.
FistOfSharkiesha5 votesYou kinda just proved my point. His passive is basically there to balance out a weakness or give him an artificial identity that other champions already have on their base states. It's decent early on but becomes basically nothing later. That's exactly what we're talking about with Lissandra. She has a huge mana problem that other mages most similar to her don't have, and so she's meant to rely on her passive. Her passive basically exists for show, on other champions it would be unnecessary or in Kassadin's case, just a part of base stats.
Look at Xerath. His passive restores 390 mana at level 18 every 12 seconds while assuming Lissandra uses her Q, she gets 85 mana at level 18 every 18 seconds. It's a really bad passive.
junglerboy166 votesYou've overlooked one glaring and utterly important facet of these passives: Just because they don't effectively change your stats, they necessitate a unique method of play and reinforce a specific niche.
For Sion, it's the "Super late game tank that can outscale any other tank."
For Lissandra it's the "CC mage who can spam spells if you get stuck in and lock people down, but runs OOM if you play her poorly."
Both are important stylistic effects that help differentiate them from every other mage or tank respectively.
That said, there is always the argument that they aren't rewarded enough by their passives, so in the Case of Sion, they ought to buff his base stats so his late game super tanking is up to snuff, and for Lissandra, they ought to buff the cooldown refund for CCing enemies so that she is rewarded more often for utilizing her intended play style.
DeusVult10 votesLeague is full of non abilities/passives
sustain, yet his base stats are garbage
Passive gives more AP than almost anyone else, her AP ratios are a turd
EmittingXs23 votesWe're supposed to use her skills "effectively" instead of "spamming" them... but I guess Ahri, Azir, Veigar, Leblanc, and even Ekko can't be held down by those niches. She doesn't have a lot of potential in the early game and that puts a huge damper on her. She's pretty strong once she gets her ult and participates in team fights, but by that point Leblanc is already running 9/0 and Lissandra is dead yet again.
The Bearded Bard7 votesI definitely wouldn't go that far. Play her as a top against all the melees or mid against zed/yasuo. Going toe to toe with mages as lissandra isn't the best idea. She's a fine champion, but she needs a better passive.
FistOfSharkiesha10 votesProblem is she can't deal nearly enough damage to zone top laners away before going OOM. Without sustain, she'll go OOM before being able to kill her enemy. If the enemy has sustain, she's useless and she'll struggle to even farm.
FistOfSharkiesha8 votesThe real issue is not only is her passive weak early game, it doesn't even scale to lategame. It makes less of an impact and is still pathetically weak.
Gengar7 votesRemember when she was meta and considered OP/Toxic/Broken and then they removed like 20 base damage off her Q and then no one played her again.
Dominick Destine6 votesRemember when she was meta and considered OP/Toxic/Broken and then they removed like 20 base damage off her Q and then no one played her again.
She was never "OP/Toxic/Broken", she had a slight time in the limelight but she was never tier 1 position 1, at best she became viable for a bit before she was raped by the nerf bat... the same as any other non Lee , non Vayne, non Yasuo champ.
Spizzle90001 votesDon't forget Thresh! He's been one of the strongest supports to play for years straight.
Ariel the Cruel4 votesstrongest supports
I really wish people would stop using that term. It's something of a misnomer to slap him with that title.
Thresh is the most versatile. Unlike other swiss army knives, Thresh doesn't have a weak point to exploit (ala Sona having as much health as a cannon minion). He does everything well (except heal, oddly; His heals are complete trash for some reason). His versatility and non-item scaling (passive) also make it hard to put him significantly behind (like other tanks). However, most supports are specialized and are far stronger than him at what they do.
The reason people hate Thresh is because he destroys Diversity. There's no reason to learn/pick another support (especially in Yolo Queue) when Thresh already does everything well; and is much lower risk than other dedicated supports.
Ulquiorra99511 votesShe was meta simply because she has a kit that screams 'fuck mobility'. And IMO we need much more of that in this game. But unfortunately, kits like this tend to stop big plays so they can't be allowed to be strong.
TendajiX2 votesShe was meta simply because she has a kit that screams 'fuck mobility'. And IMO we need much more of that in this game. But unfortunately, kits like this tend to stop big plays so they can't be allowed to be strong.
The important thing is the lee insecs cait into his teammates, Kalista and yasuo dash/hop infinitely, and not that lissandra is playable. [slayer-jinx-unamused]
The Bíg Ticket5 votesHave you ever laned vs this braindead champion? If anything they should increase her mana costs and reduce the missile speed of her q. Completely retarded to lane against as a melee champ.
Spizzle90006 votesI'm pretty sure Jax is just as braindead as Lissandra, if not moreso. Ever heard of a QSS? Or maybe some MR? Or dodging skillshots?
Her mana costs are ridiculously high. Try playing a ranged champion against her. She's meant to ruin melee bursty champions because she's the queen of cc, married to Nautilus, the king.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesRofl yes...Jax is so braindead and easy that he gets picked exactly 0 times at worlds... And yeah I am totally gonna rush a QSS vs Lissandra and dodge her 3 second cooldown Q which has one of the fastest missile speeds in the game. Her mana costs are ridiculously high? She has 85 on Q, 50 on W, 100 on E at max rank and 100 on R...that is an overall cost of 335. I can name you 30 or more champs with higher mana costs...Malzahar for example: Q 100 Mana, W 110 Mana, E 120 Mana R 100 Mana, overall 430.
Its obvious you have no idea about this game, you play vs Bronze players and can barely hit 70 cs in 20 mins, so don't talk like you can give me advice on how to play vs Lissandra...I have faced Lissandra players that are 20 times better than you can even imagine.
Spizzle90006 votesSo? Not everyone gets picked at worlds. Early on her mana costs are rather ridiculous. Malzahar gets a ton of mana back on his E and has more burst, but less CC. Furthermore, his Q is his only skillshot. His e is a point and click, so is his ult, and his w is an AoE zone of hell that he will lock you on as he ults you. That's why I like playing him.
Well, why wouldn't you want a QSS against Lissandra? It has MR and can get you out of her root or her stun.
First off, yeah, I play against bronze, silvers, and golds fairly often. I don't like ranked because I prefer to play champions I actually enjoy and I cannot stand playing in bot lane. I hate duo lanes. Barely hit 70 cs in 20 minutes? Okay. Well, um, yeah I'm pretty sure I am capable of doing that.
Don't talk like you can compare Malzahar and Lissandra like they're the same champion. Don't talk like you deserve challenger. My imagination's pretty damn good, but I never imagined I'd see as big of an imbecile as you.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesJust shut up...you have no idea what you are talking about...so rushing a QSS will do what against Lissandra if I am playing a melee champ? It won't stop her from poking me to death with her 3 sec CD Q which is impossible to miss and on top of that it will delay my item build by 1250 when it is already hard to get any cs at all in that lane. Her early mana costs are not ridiculous, as I said before I can name you atleast 30 champs that have higher, Swain, Anivia, Lux, Xerath, Viktor, etc...
Just looked at your last two matches: 78 in 21 mins each...thats just terrible, especially on a champ with that easy waveclear. That is Bronze level and that is represented in your statements aswell. I can give you countless examples of champions with higher mana costs who don't get to cast a free spell every 18 seconds, drop your illusion of Lissandra being gated by mana costs cause she totally isn't.
You are just another low elo player who thinks he has an idea about this game and how champions need to be balanced...you play against bad people hence you don't even have an idea what champions are capable of because you never see them being played to their full potential.
Spizzle90005 votesSo, first off, that's kinda Lissandra's main purpose: make melee champions' lives hell. She's a control mage.
Those champions also have different stats.
Oh my, I can't play a champion I started a couple days ago! OH DEAR LORD WHAT AM I GOING TO DO SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET SAID I CAN'T PLAY AND USED GAMES WHERE I'M USING A CHAMPION I HARDLY KNOW AS REFERENCE I MAY AS WELL GO AND HANG MYSELF!!1!
You yourself somehow managed to go 2/7/0 as Vladimir with only 130 cs at 23 minutes. That's even more embarrassing considering Vladimir has one of the best waveclears in the game once he gets even a hextech revolver, not to mention he has zero skillshots, that wonderful Troll Pool, and infinite sustain once he has a bit of spell vamp.
But yeah, her early game mana is pretty damn terrible compared to a lot of champions. Swain also has a passive that gives him mana on unit kills, Xerath gets mana with his passive, etc. Lissandra has one of the lowest base mana regens throughout the entire game, although Lux's and Anivia's starting mana regen is pretty much just as bad, although she doesn't have the free spell passive, so yeah they do have worse mana problems early on, but then why is Lux played so much?
Okay I can't deny that Anivia's mana situation just really sucks, but just because Anivia has mana problems doesn't mean Lissandra should too.
Ariel the Cruel8 votesShe's a control mage.
According to Riot, She's a poke mage. (I still find this funny!)
Okay I can't deny that Anivia's mana situation just really sucks, but just because Anivia has mana problems doesn't mean Lissandra should too.
Anivia's mana problems are to control her insane mid/late game DPS and zoning power. Seriously, she can Zone you off your own freaking turret!
The Bearded Bard7 votesWah wah wah, I pick melee champions into liss and wonder why I lose.
Excitidly Insane4 votesI've played the matchup, Jax should win if you play smart. Her root has hella CD and as long as you have half a braincell you'd buy mercs the slow lasts a shorter time. Don't ever jump to her, else you'll get ice slapped back to base, instead try weaving and getting close enough so she wastes her root, then enjoy the kill because dash > slow.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesYou played the matchup in Gold V? Nice, that gives us a good idea on how it should be played correctly. Her root has a shorter Cooldown than Jax's stun, if you jump on her with Q she will root you, Q and walk away while you are stuck in the minion wave eating free autos. The next time you jump on her she will use her E to get away, and then when your Q is up again her W is off cd aswell. If the Lissandra knows what she is doing you will never even get to auto her for more than 2 times in a row.
Excitidly Insane5 votesWhy would you as Jax play aggressive before the lane opponent has burnt some spells? Like I said you need to weave through the wave and hopefully she'll waste her root if you walk too close. At this point in time you haven't attacked her so there is no chance of minion aggro. If you are in a position to be rooted then usually you are away from the creep wave. Of course, she can then Q and E. If she uses E aggressively and there is no jungler around you can punish her hard with at the very least burning her flash. Your jump has a lower CD than Ring of Frost at all ranks, and your stun past rank 3 also has a shorter CD.
It's not a very difficult matchup, if she spams Q then she'll be out of mana fairly quickly, I've played Lissandra a lot and enjoy her, and know her limitations. That being said, if you ham without the proper precautions, then of course she'll wipe the floor with you.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesThat just shows that you have no idea about this game. Tell me, why on earth would Lissandra burn any spell other than her Q if I am not forcing her to do it? So you suggest I will sit back and wait till she uses her W or E for fun? Any Lissandra that understands the game knows that just has to push you in with Q, then you have to farm under the tower since you have no waveclear unlike her and once you try to fight her she has 2 (3 with her ult) ways of disengaging you.
Excitidly Insane6 votesYes because you can't possibly hop multiple times in the time it takes for W and E to come off cooldown, you can't buy QSS, if you stun her mid Glacial Claw she can't use it, as Jax you outscale her hard so she has to force engages which will therefore burn her spells, in turn providing you with an opening. You have all the tools at your disposal to take her on as she does to try and turn the tables. And incidentally, a Lissandra pushing your wave as Jax is perhaps the best thing you could ask for, so apart from pre-6 bullying which will burn her mana I see a favourable matchup for Jax.
But don't take it from me, I'm just a Gold scrub having played both sides of the match-up.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesYou have 2 r anked games on Lissandra and 1 on jax rofl.
You wanna tell me that you are gonna rush a QSS on Jax in this matchup? A champion that already has to rush the most expensive item in the game (after IE) and is extremely dependant on it? So instead of saving up 3700 gold I have to save almost 5000 gold before I can have an impact and extend my weak early game even further? While Lissandra gets to her core items as fast as she wants? Yeah this is a favorable matchup for Jax rofl....and if you are getting stunned by Jax in your E animation as Lissandra you are terrible.
Excitidly Insane3 votesYou're obviously biased towards Jax, which I can understand.
I took a long ranked hiatus because I couldn't guarantee my internet connection being stable, so in order to prevent 4v5's I simply played Twisted Treeline, which sees a lot of beefy champions, such as CDR Lissandra and Jax. I've prevented Lissandra's from using the second E cast by stunning before they reactivate it because they want to get the claw further away. On the flipside, I've been prevented from escaping with my E by stuns and knockups from opposing champions myself, because I didn't want a point blank E so I gambled and tried to get further away.
By favourable, I mean you can farm under your tower pretty easy as her Q will naturally push the minion wave. If you can't farm under your turret as Jax, then you are doing something wrong.
Altricad4 votes[{quoted}](name=Excitidly Insane,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8xJNGzA,comment-id=000700010000000000000003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-05T19:49:33.766+0000)
You're obviously biased towards Jax, which I can understand.
Took you long enough to realize this about that guy
He's literally the only one disagreeing and screaming "LISSANDRA OP, SHE ANNIHILATES JAX" while pointing out everyone's elo as an arguement
Ofc, he's gonna come over here and say "you're gold V hence you can't talk about balance, plus even though you may have played 100 games of lissandra in norms, only ranked counts"
Excitidly Insane3 votesNah I noticed from the start, but I'm somewhat a lover of self inflicted pain, I wanted to see if I could make him see that there is in fact counter-play to Lissandra.
I just forgot how blind someone can be when they are biased.
It Hertz When IP6 votesAd hominem, "short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly. When used inappropriately, it is a logical fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized."
Doesn't matter if he's bronze, silver, platinum, or SKT's backup midlaner; rank has nothing to do with game mechanics. Either argue with the logic of his statements or dispute the veracity of his supporting facts, or GTFO.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesNice copypaste but unfortunately it doesn't apply to what I wrote because I gave him reasons and logic. He is low rank, that means he plays vs bad players who can't play their champion to fullest potential, that means he has no way to judge how strong a champ is. Read what you comment on please.
It Hertz When IP4 votesI did. You spent 80% of your post ranting about his rank. Which is irrelevant to his arguments, which are based off her mana cost, CC level relative to comparable midlane champions, and mana return from passive compared to other champions. All of which can be gathered from the wiki. The only part that can't, the part concerning abilities that return mana on CS, can be practiced in bots. Which is also unaffected by rank. Seeing as how rank has no impact on any of his assertions, your attacks on him with regard to ranking are entirely irrelevant and, therefore, ad hominem attacks.
Trias0002 votesLots of melee champions do perfectly fine against her, or even counter her:
[edit] Yeah, I guess I was wrong to put Zed here, but the rest do well against Liss.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesROfl what? She specifically counters Zed...the others cant do shit vs her either rofl, only Cho Gath is good vs her. You just suck at Lissandra.
Trias0005 votesShe lacks damage and, as mentioned, her mana costs are too high to hurt high-sustain champions like Nasus, Aatrox or Irelia. She is also squishy, her escape isn't super reliable, especially against champions with a stun, and she lacks sustain, so champs with high damage (Jax, Aatrox, Irelia) can give her a lot of trouble and either zone or straight up kill her.
[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8xJNGzA,comment-id=000700020000,timestamp=2015-11-04T23:39:07.231+0000) You just suck at Lissandra.
Or maybe you just suck at Jax ;)
The Bíg Ticket1 votesWell i just showed you in numbers how she doesn't lack damage and how her mana costs are perfectly fine compared to other mages. So stop spreading your nonsense, it is embarrassing. If you are getting zoned vs Irelia, Jax or Aatrox you are terrible.
No I think it is you who is bad on Lissandra, according to this site you perform worse than the average Lissandra player in ranked even though you have 90 games on her: http://www.lolskill.net/summoner/EUNE/Trias000/champions
Trias0006 votes[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O8xJNGzA,comment-id=00070002000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-05T12:45:45.366+0000)
Well i just showed you in numbers how she doesn't lack damage and how her mana costs are perfectly fine compared to other mages
I don't know how Lux would deal with Nasus or Irelia, maybe just as bad. But it's not only my opinion, that those champions counter Lissandra: http://www.lolcounter.com/champions/lissandra This confirms the stats from champion.gg Meanwhile, the only "argument" you have is "you're bad, I'm Platinum V which means I know everything, l2p noob blah blah blah"
Pupel3 votesProblem is before her nerfs liss had stupid wave clear so she is forces to make the trade off of pushing the wave with harrassing the enemy
Kaipop9 votesthere's plenty of champions in mid with equal or better waveclear for less mana
FistOfSharkiesha3 votesZigg's, Orianna, Karthus, and so many more have far better wave clear for a fraction of the cost.