Appalled that Ornn's E can break player walls but Sion's Ult cannot

TheDevice·Aug 9, 2017·101 votes·4,270 views

Title. WTAF. This just seems so wrong. So so wrong.

Sions ult should at least break player walls at max momentum

This is just extremely messed up man

78 Comments

Ben SharpioAug 9, 201739 votes

Here's the problem: Riot games doesn't want to add any type of new mechanic to Sion because of how "balanced" his kit is.

People are so stuck on the whole "sion's rework was so perfect for counterplay", and riot doesn't want to push him over the edge and ruin the fantasy of his perfect rework

In reality, the only people playing sion are 1 tricks because nobody wants to play a champion that has so many telegraphed abilities. There's so many other champions that does what he does, but better and the only people who fall for his kit are in low elo

Automated RivenAug 9, 20171 votes

The reason people hail sion as the perfect rework is because he is trash and they can beat him easily. It has little to do with the actual balance of the game. Altho people are still complaining about yas so what do I expect??

SpoofghoulAug 9, 201715 votes

but yasuo is incredibly annoying lacks clarity and is too strong early for what he brings late

whether he has a balanced winrate or not people don't want to see him so something is obviously wrong

SkorchAug 9, 20173 votes

Champions i dont want to see ever in any meta no matter the winrate. Kayle Fizz Fiora Blitzcrank Cassiopeia Darius Jax Jayce Kalista Rengar Tryndamere

Is there something inherently wrong with ALL of these champions kits?

My HeartshakerAug 10, 20173 votes

That's very subjective.

SkorchAug 10, 20172 votes

And so is saying that for Yasuo/Riven/etc

PB4UAMEAug 11, 20171 votes

'Cept, it's millions of people who complain about those champs (Yasuo especially, but also Riven), where as Trynd, Darius, Rengar, Blitz and Jax are pretty trash at higher levels, and people like Jayce and Cass are much less complained about period.

SpoofghoulAug 10, 20171 votes

most of them yes actually, except darius since he is hilariously easy to deal with :S though he can be a pain in the ass Most of those champions have something toxic in their kit though or stuff which lacks clarity blitzcranks hook hitbox for example Or Kalista invalidating any melee champ or trynda's rnjesus playstyle are not cool

That being said, i would like to point out that something can be imbalanced while having a low winrate. there is also the case of some champions being very binary, you either beat them or you don't , they are either strong and meta or you get 9x for picking them

But none of that really matters if a champion is plain annoying and unfun to play against whether fair or not.

Being incredibly unfun to play against means that there is something inherently wrong with the champion. Now unfun is subjective, fair enough. But when a majority of the playerbase finds a champion unfun then then we can reasonably assume there is something wrong with the champion.

There will always be people in general and a dedicated playerbase defending those champions, but what they need to ask themselfes is the following, do i like playing this champion, if the answer is yes then by all means defend the design and have fun maining a perma banned champion. In many instances people like the champion not in spite of, but because they are toxic or unfair to play against, in these cases it says something about that players ethics and morality.

VonToothskieAug 27, 20171 votes

exactly. people like playing Yasuo or Riven because other players cant stop them and they get to feel good while annihilating someone who is trying their best but just doesnt have a counter. Yasuo for example can counter ever single one of of most ranged champions abilities on the same cooldown they can cast, and against multiple champs simultaneously. that's not balanced. I cant even count the number of times my whole team died 1v5 because a fed Yasuo wind-walled so no one can cast then dashed around one-hitting our adc, mage, jungle, and top, until he comes for me, the low damage tanky support. its sooooo frustrating. even when he's on my team it just feels like cheating to win. same with riven.... oh you thought you could place a ward? riven was there and wombo-combo'd you to death instantly. hooray

OyddAWqJ5rAug 9, 201726 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRZ0XpjK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-08-09T04:13:15.465+0000)

There's so many other champions that does what he does, but ~~better~~ with far less counterplay

FTFY

ModAcademy KaynAug 9, 20178 votes

I'd argue against this, but it's late and I'm tired.

PoskeAug 9, 20174 votes

perfect rework?

Can no longer be played AD Can no longer be played AP

There were bunch of rants on how he counterplays himself so he ends up doing nothing... (Which I agree with)

Then there is whole lethality sion having unhealthy moments even in challenger

Clockwork MouseAug 9, 20177 votes

AD Sion is some next level cheese if you can play the vision game well. No one will even see it coming.

Glory ln DeathAug 9, 20177 votes

So your saying it's bad that Sion's rework removed several unhealthy playstyles and gave him a cohesive kit, playstyle, lore, and overall identity?

Ok, bud.

MangelinaJolieAug 9, 201711 votes

Except Sion's telegraphed abilities aren't just counterplay. They are "play around me, or suffer" as they should be given that he is a tank. Reliability in a tank is a no. Look at Zac.

Sion still forces you to move out of his Q or spend CC on him to cancel it, he forces you to burn out his shield or take damage, he forces you to move out of alignment of his E. His passive doesn't need an explanation.

His zoning is incredible. I'm not a one trick but I enjoy playing him because he controls the fight through his abilities whether they hit or miss. There is a lot of underestimated power in that.

SEKAIAug 9, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Except Sion's telegraphed abilities aren't just counterplay. They are "play around me, or suffer" as they should be given that he is a tank. Reliability in a tank is a no. Look at Zac.

Sion still forces you to move out of his Q or spend CC on him to cancel it, he forces you to burn out his shield or take damage, he forces you to move out of alignment of his E. His passive doesn't need an explanation.

His zoning is incredible. I'm not a one trick but I enjoy playing him because he controls the fight through his abilities whether they hit or miss. There is a lot of underestimated power in that.

After 6 Sion can zone half way across the map as soon as you go mia, and it gets better when the "Boom" sound happens when you press R. You can physically see the enemy laners panicking a little and start to go defensive.

It's great.

But yeah I think you're explaining Sion quite rightly. I agree.

Mira Arya EntheAug 9, 20172 votes

Or because he is ugly or boring to the majority of people which is why about half the champions in the game are 'underplayed' regardless of power.

Lintu PuckAug 9, 20179 votes

one is a giant zombie one is a GOD as big as mountains and legends say he shaped the land by FIGHTING IT!

Big LincolnAug 9, 201711 votes

sion is bigger in game

Glory ln DeathAug 9, 20173 votes

Yeah. But Sion makes mountains of the dead. Next.

BobaFlautistAug 9, 20177 votes

Is that why Arelion Sol gets his shit kicked in by a man with too many swords that runs fast? MasterYi

Or maybe it's why the Avatar of the implaceable Frelijordian Winter dies to a small piece of sharp metal like everyone else (revive mechanics notwithstanding) Talon

No, wait, I've got it: that's why the approach of a woman with big gloves that punches things cannot be stopped by the previously mentioned star-dragon channeling the most concentrated cosmic energy he can into pushing her away (ult) but the legendary unstoppable symbol of Demacia's hatred of sorcery; a titanic stone golem that feeds on magic, can have his devestating onslaught completely brushed off by a small woman using some light telekinetic to push a relatively small rock under his many tons of weight away from her.

Makes sense.

Glory ln DeathAug 9, 20178 votes

Yes. Even if he stopped right after breaking through, it would be really nice. Like, let him break through and stop right after, as though he manually ended his ult (deals damage and slows in AOE, but no knock-up).

Being able to keep going for the full distance would probably be too much, but making it so a simple wall doesn't just completely screw over your ult would be really nice.

kile147Aug 9, 20174 votes

This would probably be the most fair. If the other team has terrain abilities Sion is just screwed because they can just put it in front of them at the last second, but if he broke it and then did his manual stop it would mean they would have to put it down further away. The terrain would still counter his ult but it would have to be used more skillfully/proactively in order to be effective, which would make it be less of a hard counter.

Friendly RamAug 9, 20177 votes

sions ult breaks towers though. nothing like just running over one

KoKobotoAug 9, 20172 votes

He doesn't run them over actually. He stops on impact which is pretty lame considering he was most likely at max velocity yet just stops altho he smashed the tower.

Glory ln DeathAug 9, 20172 votes

Well, he also stops on impact with champions he kills, so...

kile147Aug 9, 20175 votes

http://pa1.narvii.com/5768/1a8fa454599c6e7bbf002a4241f4f68af8767aee_hq.gif

Still sad they didn't keep the Penta Train.

KloqdqAug 9, 20172 votes

wait sion ult breaks towers...?

Friendly RamAug 9, 20172 votes

he deals the ult damage to towers if he runs into them. Really fun when the enemy team is trying to defend it.

KloqdqAug 9, 20172 votes

Holy shit I never knew that. Time to dick around with Sion!

Stars ShaperAug 9, 20173 votes

Really big zombie vs earthshaping demigod.

It makes more than sense.

NyarlathοtepAug 9, 20175 votes

You do know that logic doesnt apply in lol do you?

TheDeviceAug 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRZ0XpjK,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-09T15:41:55.924+0000)

Really big zombie vs earthshaping demigod.

It makes more than sense.

Oh right. He's a demigod. He should win vs sion all the time. Well, vs anyone who's not a demigod right? Makes all the sense in the world. I guess we have the real tier list. Demigods should always be better than simple stupid bad zombies XD. Got it. Thanks for letting us know how balance REALLY works.

XD EDit: Oh I wanna enjoy this a bit more

Why not Ornn's R just destroy the enemy side of the map? He's a demigod who shatters the earth. Makes good balancing sense. He should also crumble Malphite whenever he wants. Passively. MAN there are so many healthy balancing ideas we can make all just because he's a fucking demigod who obliterates and shapes the earth and shit XD. He's plainly better than sion just becuase he's a fuckin DEMIGOD amirite!? He should also have like 100x the amount of AD and health and everything that pathetic ass sion has.

Beas7ieAug 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Oh right. He's a demigod. He should win vs sion all the time. Well, vs anyone who's not a demigod right? Makes all the sense in the world. I guess we have the real tier list. Demigods should always be better than simple stupid bad zombies XD. Got it. Thanks for letting us know how balance REALLY works.

XD EDit: Oh I wanna enjoy this a bit more

Why not Ornn's R just destroy the enemy side of the map? He's a demigod who shatters the earth. Makes good balancing sense. He should also crumble Malphite whenever he wants. Passively. MAN there are so many healthy balancing ideas we can make all just because he's a fucking demigod who obliterates and shapes the earth and shit XD. He's plainly better than sion just becuase he's a fuckin DEMIGOD amirite!? He should also have like 100x the amount of AD and health and everything that pathetic ass sion has.

I agree.

Also Aurelion Sol needs buffs. He gets frekkin meteors to rotate around him and he can literally shoot out the core of a STAR.

Every game with him should be him going "relax guys I got this"

Then he flies over the map and above the enemy base, shoots one stat into the nexus and wins the game.

If the player wants to really rub it in, he'll shoot that star into fountain first to one shot pentakill the enemy team and THEN one shot the nexus.

Total match time about ten seconds.

Meanwhile teemo gets nerfed hard cause he's pretty much a rat type thing with a blow gun so he should instantly get turned into giblets any time he's hit with a spell or attack and his little blow gun darts just plink off people.

Stars ShaperAug 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Oh right. He's a demigod. He should win vs sion all the time.

And where was I talking about dueling or winrates in matchups?

Sion was a guy who fought forever even while in lethal conditions, a hulking being who charged in battle and used massive attacks against his enemies and has been brought back to life with sorcery.

Ornn is a guy who shaped an entire region by smashing the earth and the mountains, he dug the Howling Abyss and made his own house/forge by digging a riverbed for the ocean waters and the magma to meet.

Now, who makes more sense to have in his kit to destroy terrain between the 2?

It's like you are complaining that Soraka doesn't conjure stars that increase in size since she is using star magic but Aurelion Sol can do it.

TheDeviceAug 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRZ0XpjK,comment-id=000800010001,timestamp=2017-08-10T07:55:24.426+0000)

And where was I talking about dueling or winrates in matchups?

Sion was a guy who fought forever even while in lethal conditions, a hulking being who charged in battle and used massive attacks against his enemies and has been brought back to life with sorcery.

Ornn is a guy who shaped an entire region by smashing the earth and the mountains, he dug the Howling Abyss and made his own house/forge by digging a riverbed for the ocean waters and the magma to meet.

Now, who makes more sense to have in his kit to destroy terrain between the 2?

It's like you are complaining that Soraka doesn't conjure stars that increase in size since she is using star magic but Aurelion Sol can do it.

Originally Sejuani was able to break player made terrain. Is she a demigod of the earth? No.

Sion is a colossal zombie whos ult is called "unstoppable onslaught" and just so happens to be stopped by everything.

My comparison was a balance issue. Not who's theme is stronger for breaking terrain. Even so, Sions ult breaking terrain as the Unstoppable Onslaught makes perfect thematic, balance, and design sense. His ult has a difficult to master steering function already. It takes time and practice to get right. It becomes far less rewarding when somebody can just throw a wall in front of him to end his ULT. It makes perfect sense thematically, balance-wise, and gameplay-wise for him to smash through that crap. I don't care if Ornn has it. I'm not saying he shouldn't have it. I'm saying if there is another champ who it makes perfectly fine sense on and could really use the slight QoL buff to their ult, its Sion.

People (mostly avid sion players) have been asking riot to give sion this mechanic for some time now. He's been a low tier pick for a while as well and this would not overtune him in the least. Yet, out of the blue, some new champ can get the mechanic on an even lower cooldown skill. It's just absurd.

And to really point out my frustration: this whole time I'd thought he couldn't have it because ever since they removed it from Sej's kit, I assumed it was because they didn't want this mechanic in the game at all. Looks like I was wrong and they just dont want to give sion players that tad bit of consistency for some unknown reason.

Stars ShaperAug 10, 20171 votes

Balancewise, Sion can run through the entire map while adjusting (even if a little) the direction and has higher damage than Ornn.

TheDeviceAug 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRZ0XpjK,comment-id=00080001000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-10T09:49:34.381+0000)

Balancewise, Sion can run through the entire map while adjusting (even if a little) the direction and has higher damage than Ornn.

I don't think you know what balance means lol. If it was given to Sion it would be on his ULT, which, though may have a longer range, has a much much higher cooldown. EVEN IF, they gave sion this mechanic on his ult, he would never ever ever break as many player created walls as Ornn (assuming they have similar playrates) just because of the cooldown difference.

TheDeviceAug 10, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRZ0XpjK,comment-id=000800010001,timestamp=2017-08-10T07:55:24.426+0000)

It's like you are complaining that Soraka doesn't conjure stars that increase in size since she is using star magic but Aurelion Sol can do it.

BTW, I want you to take a close look at what you're saying here. Now, could Soraka possibly, IDK, conjure banannas in a cirlcle that increase in size? You're mixing thematics with mechanics. You're not making very much sense. And to further this confusion, you've added a very champion-specific ability that practicially defines the champ. Not so much the thematics of it; that just enhances the "immersion", if you will.

Basically, what im saying is, since you think its perfectly fine just because he is a demigod of earth, he should not be able to break Anivia's wall, because thats ice(water). Not earth. In the end, its got more to do with the actual effect. The mechanic.

Back to the Aurellion sol example you made. IF there was no champion called aurellion sol, but there was a fire dragon who could make a pool of fire in the air which expanded as he moved..... whats the difference? There isnt any. The latter would have absolutely nothing to do with "star magic" (lol) at all but the mechanics would be the exact same.

This is why you are confusing thematics with balance.

MillForMeAug 9, 20172 votes

I recall Sion being a killing machine, not a demolition machine.

TheDeviceAug 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I recall Sion being a killing machine, not a demolition machine.

I recall him averaging 4 kills as a top laner. Not sure what you've been looking at. Oh and support sion still has a higher winrate.

MillForMeAug 10, 20171 votes

Lore...

KuroCaliberAug 9, 20172 votes

Yes, but Sion can knock up enemies without hitting a wall.

SlampieceHawkeAug 9, 20172 votes

Can he break through yas' wall and clock him in the face so hard that he literally falls off summoners rift? Because I'd love that. Weeblord Yasuo: "ASAKI WEE WOO DURKA DER." Macdaddy Ornn: " Sayonara Nerd." pow

SohleksAug 9, 20172 votes

I'm for this.

Reminds me of the time I got Anivia on aram versus a Sion. I have experience with Anivia so the first time he ever ulted and every thereafter it just gets him a faceplant into a wall of ice lol. Poor Sion.

TheDeviceAug 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I'm for this.

Reminds me of the time I got Anivia on aram versus a Sion. I have experience with Anivia so the first time he ever ulted and every thereafter it just gets him a faceplant into a wall of ice lol. Poor Sion.

Anivia Trundle JarvanIV Taliyah All just laugh at sion. His ult is already a bitch to steer then you have a X+ champions with dashes and escapes to join in laughing at this champion. Sion really has become a Meme at this point. His design philosophy must be "How can every single champion in the game thwart the attempts of this champion being useful? We will create the biggest joke champion... ever... and they will call him balanced."

He's a big clown lol. Thats actually what he is. A clown. New skin confirmed: Clownshoes Sion. He's dressed as a clown and every time he misses his Q some derpy music plays like "wamp-waaaaamp" And he'll make some emote like "Durr shucks ahulkahulk" Then when he ults and hits a wall he falls on his ass with birds chirping in cirlcles over his head. And more doofusy clown music plays. Or when some guy barely even paying attention to his ult just moves out of the way or dashes out of his path we got that other goofy music like "woop-woop-wooop"

New theme music: https://youtu.be/zjedLeVGcfE