Why Sion's passive health is the worst passive stacking in the game.

TheDevice·Feb 21, 2016·137 votes·9,892 views

%health / and %health true damage.

In every sense of the idea.. the sion passive health stacking is truly fail. You also need about 300 cs to make up the difference in most other champions. He has a low base health and low base health growth rate.

SO while you're getting all that farm to get what others are getting, EVEN when you exceed in cs and in getting those health stacks, you're just going to get smashed by the late game carries anyway who all have %health true damge.

You're also going to be getting cc'd alot more (late game CD on enemy champs will all be super low) so you will be performing your Q a lot less.

http://i66.tinypic.com/15hk3g5.png

This isnt the winrate of a late-game super tank

164 Comments

AMYS GRAVEFeb 21, 201654 votes

+1 man. I love me some sion but he just feels so weak.

TahngarthorFeb 21, 201626 votes

{quoted}

+1 man. I love me some sion but he just feels so weak.

His early/midgame is actually very strong as the winrate graph can attest. it is in longer games that he falters.

TheHowesterFeb 21, 20164 votes

What do you think would help him?

TheDeviceFeb 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What do you think would help him?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0OrMnz6y-some-sion-ideas

Here's a couple ideas I've had for him.

Not exactly what most people would be going for but lol they're just ideas.

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 21, 20167 votes

He only wins the early due to his near-unavoidable cheesy Q maxing tactic (hard to dodge with base ms especially with no dashes).

Every other aspect of him is straight garbage numerically. E is strong too early on but the fall-off on every part of him is insane -- especially given how he's advertised as a lategame tank.

Edit: He does however fit pretty well into poke and push comps due to E and ofcourse being able to fill the tank role.

TotalJerkFeb 21, 20165 votes

E doesn't fall off if you max it first. That's really the problem; anything he isn't maxing at the moment will fall off HARD.

SquidsmastahFeb 21, 20168 votes

Sion is so damn fun to play.

CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKERS!

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 21, 201623 votes

I don't understand why his ult and his shield damage doesn't scale with how much health he has. especially the shield.

RalanrFeb 21, 20169 votes

The shield damage scales with bonus health, so it does.

StarGuardianSionFeb 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why his ult and his shield damage doesn't scale with how much health he has. especially the shield.

His max speed ult has the same rank 3 base damage as a fully channeled Vel'koz ult, and a knockup. What more do you want?

DengedenFeb 21, 201612 votes

Rofl, everytime Sion is picked, Fiora magically appears on the enemy team? L-O-L. Vayne is still garbage, so ...

You wanna know the real reason his winrate has a curve like that? His skill shots are too easily dodged and he gets kited (when he's even) ... BUT as you can see from the upward curve after the drop, the healthstacking comes into play later.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 20164 votes

item 3036 and item 3151 say hello.

DengedenFeb 21, 201612 votes

Which one is %true damage again? Neither? Right.

AckelopeFeb 21, 20164 votes

%hp damage and pen still work at killing him, even if vayne and co. work better... discounting those items is just a bad idea.

DengedenFeb 21, 20169 votes

Ofc tanks aren't completely unkillable but Liandry's is pretty niche and the LWs are a shadow of their predecessor.

Sire HippingtonFeb 21, 20164 votes

well, if it comes to killing tanks, the LW items are more effective than ever, they are just usless against the rest now. But since crit still hyperscales away, the rest still drops instantly so who cares, adc lategame are still the overlords of the rift.

DengedenFeb 21, 20162 votes

Base armor is nothing to sneeze at but in the end, yes, playing a tank late game comes down to estimating how fast you'll get blown up.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 20162 votes

It usually ends up around the decimals of .4 seconds to .8 seconds. All it takes is for two carries to focus you and you disappear.

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20162 votes

At which point your team can easily kill the carries because they used their kit to kill a tank.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 20164 votes

Or, you know, the enemy ADC just auto attacked you like 4 times. And the assassins have free reign to destroy your back line.

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20166 votes

I've never played a tank and died in 4 AA. People on here exaggerate way too much to actually take seriously.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 20161 votes

Well, to be fair, Jhin is a very outlandish example.

But personally, with 3 carries wailing on me at once, it takes less than 2 or 3 seconds to blow up.

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20163 votes

Again, if their entire team is focusing the tank, why isn't the other team's carries doing anything? You guys are so one sided with your arguments. Even if you build full tank you are going to die if you let a team unload on you. It shouldn't make you invincible. Killing a target that is building for health and resistances will take much longer than someone who doesn't. With that said, are you saying carries are able to kill squishies in 1-2 AA? because again, that is an extreme exaggeration.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 20162 votes

You'd expect a tank to be able to survive for at least 5-7 seconds while being focused. However, since tank items have been constantly nerfed and DPS items are being shipped out like crazy, it's no wonder you can no longer survive under heavy fire. Not to mention that even if your carries act in the tiny window of time it takes to kill your tank, they can possibly be left in a 5v4 with no front line or peel.

And you know what happens to teams without a front line.

Splat.

charcharmunroFeb 21, 20165 votes

Sion's kit lets him dominate the laning phase against most people without constant CC. Put him against Nasus, and Nasus has to decide between losing most of his life to your Q, or stacking his.

Tobias BracknerFeb 21, 20162 votes

Sion is an incredibly oppressive lane opponent (The fact that corruption pot isn't recommended is criminal imo). Based on how well I can beat up people in the laning phase, I don't see the problem with a weaker late (it's not like he sucks hardcore late either.)

Sire HippingtonFeb 22, 20162 votes

the problem here is the same as with Kogmaw's current state: his fantasy is that of an lategamescaleing hypertank. The healthstacking passive suggest premanently increaseing tankiness over the game, which most people few also as increaseing effectiviness. And last, old sion was known for a massive lategame scaleing, the few who liked old sion would probably like to atleast have that part staying.

His real state is that of a lanebully that scales well into midgame, usually snowballing from the lead in lane, and drops later, which clashes with the fantasy of the champ.

PePsiLemoNNFeb 21, 201612 votes

late game carries anyway who all have %health true damge.

There are 3 champions with %hp true damage in the game Fiora Vayne Garen , Garen won't use his on sion so there are 2.

Not saying %true damage is healthy or smth but just don't say bs ..

The LexerFeb 21, 20167 votes

IDK I've seen tanks get hit for 1.5k true damage from garen's ulti

StarGuardianSionFeb 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lexer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAU2H84d,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-02-21T14:51:20.770+0000)

IDK I've seen tanks get hit for 1.5k true damage from garen's ulti

Only when they're already at 300 HP though.

TacoTheKittenFeb 21, 201610 votes

Sion is actually really strong if played right. You need skill to play him.

MelledoneusFeb 21, 201610 votes

There is a certain point where it becomes less about skill and more about how strong your champion is. AKA, higher elo.

SquarefighterFeb 21, 20166 votes

And there's plenty of people who play him with success in high elo.

TacoTheKittenFeb 22, 20162 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there was some guy that mained yorick to like diamond or master or something.

MelledoneusFeb 22, 20163 votes

There's a Challenger who plays nothing but Heimerdinger.

StarGuardianSionFeb 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Sion is actually really strong if played right. You need skill to play him.

Damn straight.

Blade of JusticFeb 21, 20169 votes

If only Sion was less of a CC tank and was more of a Juggernaut AA sustain tank....

OH WAIT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgaN3XH5WHE

Faceless VoidzFeb 21, 20164 votes

You really give an example of a 55-0 sion?

Blade of JusticFeb 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceless Voidz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAU2H84d,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-02-21T21:14:32.872+0000)

You really give an example of a 55-0 sion?

Yes.

StarGuardianSionFeb 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAU2H84d,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-21T02:54:44.741+0000)

If only Sion was less of a CC tank and was more of a Juggernaut AA sustain tank....

OH WAIT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgaN3XH5WHE

Sion summoner 14 summoner 4 item 3748 item 3078 item 3053 item 3047 item 3102 item 3742

u sed wot bout an aa tank?

Blade of JusticFeb 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

u sed wot bout an aa tank?

Bu-But....

Where does the "not suck" come in?

YaskamasandwichFeb 21, 20163 votes

Well Sion's other weakness is he seems to just counter himself. He has infinite health but he's an early game champ. His moves are easily cointerable just by simply moving. He needs a tune up in terms of identity. Is he and early/mid game or late game champ? Is he what his title is a juggernaut or tank? What is he?

A champion with infinite stacks should always be late game so either remove it and give him good health scaling to make him early/mid or make him more late game with infinite stacks. Yes he is balanced so far but that doesn't excuse those facts.

YumaS2AstralFeb 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Well Sion's other weakness is he seems to just counter himself. He has infinite health but he's an early game champ. His moves are easily cointerable just by simply moving. He needs a tune up in terms of identity. Is he and early/mid game or late game champ? Is he what his title is a juggernaut or tank? What is he?

A champion with infinite stacks should always be late game so either remove it and give him good health scaling to make him early/mid or make him more late game with infinite stacks. Yes he is balanced so far but that doesn't excuse those facts.

To be honest it seems like most of those stat bonuses are not actual bonuses, they are just compensation for a certain champ's stats being weak by themselves.

For example, despite the fact that has a passive shield that even scales with his health, Mordekaiser's base health is very low. Despite the fact that Lissandra has a passive that lets her cast spells for free, her mana regeneration is very low. Aatrox and Azir both have a passive that gives them bonus attack speed, with Aatrox having an on-attack healing that activates every third attack, and Azir soldier's basic attacks scaling with attack speed. However, their base attack speed is low by themselves.

TheDeviceFeb 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

To be honest it seems like most of those stat bonuses are not actual bonuses, they are just compensation for a certain champ's stats being weak by themselves.

For example, despite the fact that has a passive shield that even scales with his health, Mordekaiser's base health is very low. Despite the fact that has a passive that lets her cast spells for free, her mana regeneration is very low. and both have a passive that gives them bonus attack speed, with Aatrox having an on-attack healing that activates every third attack, and Azir soldier's basic attacks scaling with attack speed. However, their base attack speed is low by themselves.

This is definitely something I've noticed. Nasus doesn't really suffer from this at all however and has a scaling up winrate for longer games (as he should).

I think sion should no longer stack pure health but instead stack shield strength.

I have few ideas on how this could work and I was going to post them up in just a second.

Baron of BreadFeb 21, 20164 votes

He sort of does already since his shield scales off of HP.

YaskamasandwichFeb 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

To be honest it seems like most of those stat bonuses are not actual bonuses, they are just compensation for a certain champ's stats being weak by themselves.

For example, despite the fact that has a passive shield that even scales with his health, Mordekaiser's base health is very low. Despite the fact that has a passive that lets her cast spells for free, her mana regeneration is very low. and both have a passive that gives them bonus attack speed, with Aatrox having an on-attack healing that activates every third attack, and Azir soldier's basic attacks scaling with attack speed. However, their base attack speed is low by themselves.

I guess that is a good point but why place an infinite stacks on an early game champion? It doesn't make any sense, and feels like a huge burden. In Sion's spot light it even mentions he needs to farm to become a late game unkillable machine where he shines, but attacks can be avoided for balance. Did Riot just back away from that concept and such and turn him into an early game champ at some point?

AnidanFeb 21, 20162 votes

Probably for similar reasons that they also have infinite scaling on a decidedly mid-game champion like Nasus - to keep his early game more in check. That said, I'm not sure why they chose to give infinite health scaling to an early-mid-game champion like Sion, but, y'know... Rito things.

Meep ManFeb 21, 20161 votes

I just wish they would increase his base health and health gained per kill. Maybe like, +80 Health per Level normally and then +3 per minion. Still +10 per champion kill or assist. It would really make him feel more like the Undead Juggernaut.

All the other infinite scaling champions don't pay a price, Sion shouldnt either. Reduce his base damage by a little or whatever, just make it to where his health per kill passive is a bonus instead of a burden.

DorkunedAurasFeb 21, 20163 votes

Veigar's AP ratios are actually kinda low for a burst mage. It makes up for his insane AP numbers. 2.6 total scaling is meh.

Nasus pays 30 minutes of every game to exist

Bard has to roam away from lanes to stack

Thresh pays with no armor scaling per level

SquidblimpFeb 21, 20164 votes

Veigar has a 100% AP scaling ratio on R and W, and I think 60% or 70% on Q, that's higher than most. However, he does miss out on a damaging spell with his E, so I suppose you could play it that way.