The Sion nerf: Not allowed in pro play.

TheDevice·Oct 10, 2015·90 votes·5,223 views

Thats really all it did. Remember when people actually used sion in LCS and whatnot. When he was a viable pick? Riot just said... "nope."

113 Comments

Captain AishiOct 10, 201527 votes

that's what happens when riot creates a melee champion with absolutely 0 reliability on any ability in his kit...

passive, easy to kite Q, long channel easy to get out of or interrupt W, easy to pop in the time it takes before you can manually detonate E, skillshot somewhat fast moving (the most reliable thing in his kit, also the most heavily nerfed numbers wise) R, let me just warn everyone that i'm about to stun myself into a wall after someone gave a move command to the right or left as i'm approaching them

GelsominoKillerOct 10, 201547 votes

With Sion being probably the healthiest champion in league, i'm very sorry to see him olafed and left to rot. They found time to buff Lee in an adverse metagame, but fixing some of the overbearing aspects of Sion is impossible?

AnidanOct 10, 20155 votes

Y'know, I've never understood this.. Why is it that someone seems to only be healthy if they have little reliability? Everyone I can think of that's considered 'healthy' can have their damage completely avoided or what have you. That sounds potentially extremely crappy on the end of the person playing it. Everyone should have at least some reliable aspect, but Sion's only reliable aspect is that he'll get hp from minions.

Vel'koz has no reliable abilities, Lux's things can all be dodged (she was considered very healthy... before her buffs, at which point people promptly started flipping tables and saying she isn't healthy, despite her balance having little to do with her design health), etc.

IcyPepperOct 10, 20158 votes

Lux's things can all be dodged

Technically, even her own teammates can dodge her shield.

CindikleOct 11, 20152 votes

It means they have power to reward good play but this power has proper counters.

A lot of champions with high reliability have something that makes them frustrating to face(Fizz) or difficult to use(Lee Sin).

Puppet33rOct 11, 20151 votes

Lux's e is nealy impossible to dodge in early stages of the game which is why ppl were flipping tables. Her usual template of gameplay was: harass with e to widdle down your opponent and then start fishing for roots with q, once it hits, throw e and r on top of it and that's the end of it. And she could get away with it cause of mana regen being way more potent back in the days and assassins not being so prevalent. And now guys like ziggs and velkoz can't do anything to zeds and yasuos. They can just throw their skills into windwalls and shadows and get "outplayed". Sion has a very similar problem as none of his skills is guranteed and has a very low chance to actually do anything, he's just getting ignored and saved for last in teamfights, unable to even reliably peel for his teammates. I mean how many times have you ultied and enemy team just jumped on your teammates completely ignoring you as you rush into their turret?

KaisadiIIaOct 11, 20152 votes

I play Lux and against Lux. It's not as easy as you say, unless your opponent has literally no hands and refuses to buy any resistances at all.

Dar RaksadaOct 11, 20151 votes

I mean how many times have you ultied and enemy team just jumped on your teammates completely ignoring you as you rush into their turret?

Not that often unless they're fed to the high heavens, I've had my team ignoring my ults though.

KaisadiIIaOct 11, 20152 votes

People call "unhealthy" to everything that is popular regardless of design or balance.

If Lux isn't healthy, considering that she has everything RIOT has described as "healthy gameplay", then we can as well give up the game and start playing Super Tetris.

Heck, even if Galio somehow became popular, people would call him "unhealthy" and "broken", arguing that his AoE taunt is instant, his Q has too much damage and it's stupid that buying resistances gives him more damage.

We can do it with every champion, you'll always find something to call unhealthy. And, if you don't, just insult everyone and call them "X main".

FistOfSharkieshaOct 10, 20151 votes

Yeah Sion and Vel'Koz are the two healthiest champions in the game, Vel'Koz being the only champion to have true damage perfectly and fairly incorporated into his kit. It's a shame they're both so unreliable. The slightest bit of mobility and you can dodge their entire kit without fail.

JingerbeardmanOct 10, 20151 votes

calling them the healthiest in game might be a bit much

OyddAWqJ5rOct 11, 20151 votes

Why though? Their kits are entirely counter-playable and when you take damage you never feel cheated. You always know you could have avoided it and it's partly your fault for not doing so.

Which feels alot better than getting flash Tibbered, Malph ulted or fighting Fizz in general.

A Miss FortuneOct 11, 20151 votes

I couldn't understand why Sion was nerfed even when he was played a lot competitively. He was a great champion but he wasn't overpowered by any means, he could win games with his peeling and CC but there was a lot of counterplay to it. Sion is the type of Tank I love, he was freakishly tanky but he didn't have that much damage. He's what a fair, healthy, balanced Tank should be.

Garen, Darius, Nasus, etc are all tanks I hate. They can build 6 tank items but still be difficult to kite and can blow you up so fast with not much counterplay if you can't kite them really well. Sion wasn't like this at all. Sion is what a true tank is.

A Chaotic MindOct 11, 20152 votes

Sion auto-won every single lane matchup unless the Sion's player had several brain dmg and missplayed

A Miss FortuneOct 11, 20151 votes

But he doesn't do much damage and all of his abilities aside from when he kicks a minion aren't really that hard to dodge by any means? I mean Sion can build damage, but he'll blow up easily in fights.

A Chaotic MindOct 11, 20152 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sion watch the Q base/ratio and then add the 20% armor red of E. In lane he does a lot of dmg. Also Q is pretty easy to charge at least for 1 sec on a slowed enemy and E as a strong slow (40% for 2.5 sec)

SquarefighterOct 11, 20151 votes

He was not Olaf'd. Sion is still extremely strong. Just because he is not seen in pro play doesn't mean he isn't great elsewhere.

Dar RaksadaOct 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He was not Olaf'd. Sion is still extremely strong. Just because he is not seen in pro play doesn't mean he isn't great elsewhere.

I love him in soloqueue, the shield and recent item nerfs hit him pretty hard though.

Edit for clarity: I play him in the jungle.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 11, 20152 votes

I know, he was amazingly healthy. The most actively counter-playable tank in the entire game.

But they nerf him to hell because E had no counter-play cuz of its reliability and high damage....

U know, logic would infer that they should just nerf the reliability or the damage of E, that's it. But nope, bye bye Q, W and E.

And let's not forget nerfing him when Cinderhulk came out cuz Cinderhulk was broken on every % health ratio based tank and then nerfed Cinderhulk and never reverted W.

sigh

FiskOct 10, 20153 votes

I'm not 100% sure why people think sion is garbage.... Yeah he has all these weaknesses but he still have a ton of strengths. His ult is incredibly good, even as just a way to move around the map (hopefully you can land a few but its pretty hard to land... This is a great way to save tp). Also point blank ult-> Q is really good. He is by far one of the tankiest champions in the game, has an incredible early game. His passive is honestly really good if you can use it effectively as you basically can't lose fights in lane. He has issues and isn't a top tier top laner any more but hes not olaf tier..

idokiOct 10, 20152 votes

2 things:

Over nerfed, the activation delay on the W was increased from 2 to 3 seconds.
Not in the meta (this came after the nerfs).

A Chaotic MindOct 10, 20156 votes

I played Sion before the nerfs and i still play him and i can say that they were deserved (maybe not the reactivation time increase on the W). Before the nerf to E it was impossible to lose lane with a 1500 range poke that dealt 315 dmg for 35 mana at lvl 9 (like are you serious?). At least now you have to use E-Q for dealing the same dmg...

Dar RaksadaOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Chaotic Mind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho6ymLVV,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-10-10T19:44:36.299+0000)

I played Sion before the nerfs and i still play him and i can say that they were deserved (maybe not the reactivation time increase on the W). Before the nerf to E it was impossible to lose lane with a 1500 range poke that dealt 315 dmg for 35 mana at lvl 9 (like are you serious?). At least now you have to use E-Q for dealing the same dmg...

The shield nerf messed with his jungle, which annoyed me as I main him jungle, it should've been either shield strength or reactivation time.

A Chaotic MindOct 11, 20151 votes

In the jungle you can start with a max channel Q while activating the shield, so you can reactivate it after tanking 1 monster aa (Q channel time 2 sec+cc time). The problem with the shield is that for trades in toplane is nothing but a waste of mana

Dar RaksadaOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Chaotic Mind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho6ymLVV,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-11T13:05:16.178+0000)

In the jungle you can start with a max channel Q while activating the shield, so you can reactivate it after tanking 1 monster aa (Q channel time 2 sec+cc time). The problem with the shield is that for trades in toplane is nothing but a waste of mana

I am aware of that, however, for your first clear you can sometimes shield twice a camp ( blue buff and sometimes wolves) and you need expert timing for that now.

Edit: for blue you need to time your shield right after it hits you and then explode it as soon as you can.

GelsominoKillerOct 11, 20151 votes

What i most enjoyed about Sion was his agressive lane playstyle, transitioning in a tank later in the game. His laining was closer to Olaf/Darius, and this is unique for a tank in this game. You had trade potential, and eventually some kill pressure. Right now his gameplay is similar to Malphite's, passively shoving waves with the Q Riot pidgeonholed us to max, with an ultimate good to use in a gank with your jungler, or to escape one.

I agree that his E-spam was overbearing at the time, but in all honesty, i would have prefered it to remain an impacful skill. Instead it got nerfed both in risk and reward: more mana cost and less damage.
W nerfs were uncalled for, and destroyed the spell on 2 different sides: Riot's intentions were to make the shield easier to break, so they lowered its numbers AND increased re-activation time. Now he suffers the Veigar effect: bad only because he can't use a whole part of his kit: in fact, as soon as W delay was reduced, Veigar immediately transitioned from UP to OP.

TD;LR just revert the shield reactivation time nerf.

A Chaotic MindOct 11, 20151 votes

Is still impactfull but now u have to use it as a starter for the Q: when the enemy walk up to cs you yell a minion to them for the armor reduction and slow, then u channel the Q with the enemy in the center of Q's area. In this way you can always get the knockup unless the enemy use a mobility skill for dodging but, since the Q dont have a cast animation (when you release the Q it apply the damage immediatly) the enemy wasted a cooldown and potentially mana for a minor dmg reduction.

On the w topic i agree: the active is useless till lategame and the only reason you even lvl it up is for the passive

GelsominoKillerOct 11, 20151 votes

You're totally right about E, but you're admitting it's good only with a Q follow up, and any slow could do the job at this point. It's far from being a useless spell, but god do i miss sniping people with it. It was so much fun. Riot lazily decided to water it down, and now it is sub-optimal to max. I wish they gave it some kind of extra effect in order to preserve what was really engaging of the gameplay tied to the spell, and not only nerfs.

Maybe damage based on range? Slow based on range? Pheraphs some kind of execute bonus?

Just something worth playing around!

A Chaotic MindOct 11, 20151 votes

Imo the Sion's gameplay in lane is much more fun now that you have to combo E-Q and try to maximize the Q dmg with the risk of losing a lot of dmg if you try to channel for too long versus the 0 interaction spam E and win because the numbers are too high. Also i would much prefers a buff for W because atm it's simply impossible to reactivate for dmg vs a decent opponent

OyddAWqJ5rOct 11, 20151 votes

He had a great design but too much power in his E. But for some reason they nerf Q, W and E and then nerf W AGAIN when Cinderhulk comes out and then they nerf Cinderhulk and don't revert W.

GG Riot.

AkesgerothOct 11, 20152 votes

Except that's the point of his kit. Almost everything about him is a soft taunt, forcing people to waste damage/cc/mobility or suffer heavy damage coupled with CC.

So the question is "Is Sion effective enough at wasting enemy damage, cc and mobility, and do people get punished harshly enough for ignoring him?"

Earl EulrichOct 10, 201511 votes

I think jungle Sion is pretty much underrated, he outscales Gragas as a tank and brings a lot of early preasure - especially with the mroe carry-oriented tops he´s very viable, even in pro-play.

The Yetii RiderOct 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho6ymLVV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-10T12:38:13.860+0000)

I think jungle Sion is pretty much underrated, he outscales Gragas as a tank and brings a lot of early preasure - especially with the mroe carry-oriented tops he´s very viable, even in pro-play.

Gragas has a much better ultimate. His mana pool is also much larger, allowing Gragas to stay out of base longer.

BudupopsOct 10, 20152 votes

cus he is cancer, unfun to play aginst, safe laning phase with magic dmg poke, infinite scaling.

Pluie BattanteOct 10, 201516 votes

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BudupopsOct 10, 20151 votes

you dont even play the champion. read up b4 u post m8

Pluie BattanteOct 10, 201511 votes

[deleted]

BudupopsOct 10, 20151 votes

so basically u r just some1 who plays the meta and doesnt main him. gj being bronze

Pluie BattanteOct 10, 201510 votes

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BudupopsOct 10, 20151 votes

ok why r u writing about champion u dont main while being silver? it is completel irrelevant and is a waste of electrons

Pluie BattanteOct 10, 20159 votes

[deleted]

BudupopsOct 10, 20151 votes

lol u hominid peasant

Auz the RipperOct 10, 20158 votes

Such a fearsome and biting insult

Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pluie Battante,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho6ymLVV,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-10T15:08:51.339+0000)

I just caught on that your trolling. But yea I don't wanna main him because he's useless. And I'm not bronze. I'm currently S3 and I keep going in and out of S2, I'm hoping things will even out eventually and I'll be able to climb; only so much one person can do.

I'm in gold and play Sion, and I think he's perfectly viable. Though I agree that the timing on his shield could be scaled down to 2.5s.

p.s. Try him support.

Pluie BattanteOct 11, 20151 votes

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Hyrum GraffOct 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pluie Battante,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ho6ymLVV,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-11T11:32:22.940+0000)

I'd keep the timing at 3 seconds for his W and give him his 10% scaling back. It was nerfed originally because he was using it to quickly in team fights, so yea increase the timer, but lowering the scaling really beat up the ability. Also if they want to give Sion viable damage output they should shift damage from the longer charges of his Q to the lower charges being he will most likely never land full charges if not rarely.

That would be acceptable, too.

OperationDEEZ1Oct 10, 20159 votes

Might I also add people complained about him being Tanky but there are champions worse then him, there are tanks that can tank like him except hit hard, which he can't do.

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