As a swain main, a few thoughts on his current position

Hibeki··8 votes·1,566 views

Swain is weak, not mechanic wise, and not kit wise, it's mostly mana cost.

As the Heavy from tf2 would say, "At any level, it costs 1950 mana to use his ult for 12 seconds" Math wrong

With a fully maxed rod of ages, at level 18, swain has a mana pool of 1973. This is unacceptable. No other champion in the game uses mana that fast, this isn't season 2 anymore riot, this low damage doesn't justify the high mana cost.

Also, with much stronger AOE cc's, his W is completely underwhelming. It needs a change in either:

A. Increased casting range B. Decrease in delay C. Increase in AOE D. A better CC than just rooting, maybe a stun or an Amumu Ult cc.

Champions base movespeed is high enough to where they walk out of this thing, you need an outplay just to LAND it.

Make the text consistent in terms of damage per second or damage over a period. Q says damage per second while E has damage over 4 seconds. This is super annoying, make it consistent.

Q could use a small damage buff or buff on the slow, but it's still strong early game, so I am not too unsatisfied with it.

30 Comments

OurLestrade3 votes

You know it's a sign when Alamander, the Swain Train himself, doesn't play Swain at all anymore. And this is the guy who played nothing but Swain for around three years! :P I really hope they give him a more reliable method of farming too. At least give him a more responsive auto :O

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

You know it's a sign when Alamander, the Swain Train himself, doesn't play Swain at all anymore :P I really hope they give him a more reliable method of farming too. At least give him a more responsive auto :O

this x10


the worse thing, is that with item changes like item 3027 giving #HALF its current mana, he would be even more unplayable.

probably they'll make him more skillshot based.

wouldn't mind them merging his Q and E and adding a new spell that allows him to farm, be it aoe, or like Malzahar's space aids, or whatever. Perhaps something like him targeting an area, and then birds come and attack targets inside for a duration.

junglerboy163 votes

Actually, Kassadin uses mana faster mid-late game.

EDIT: Since his costs ramp up over time you should never come close to leaving it on for 12 straight seconds. That's an intended mechanic to force you to not be in immortal god-bird mode forever, not some glaring weakness. Use it in bursts and his mana costs are 100% reasonable; using an extreme example of poor skill management is a weak way to construct an argument.

Hibeki3 votes

Immortal god bird? Until you have 400 ap the damage and healing on it is next to nothing

Burst? He sends out one bird per second.

Swain isn't a burst champion, he's a sustained damage DOT champion. It sounds to me like you've never played swain. The idea of him being a sustained damage champion means you WANT to have it on longer, he WANTS longer skirmishes and fights. Thats what his kit does, DOT's.

junglerboy161 votes

You have absolutely pathetic reading comprehension.

I said you are supposed to use the ability in bursts, not that it deals burst. Turn it on for 5-6 seconds, turn it off, turn it back on. That kind of burst use. Leaving it on too long is a n00b mistake, and a skilled swain player (hopefully like you) should know exactly how to manage his ult cost properly so that they never get to the absurd cost you seem to think is normal. You seem more like someone who's never played him the way you're talking about how he plays.

OF COURSE Swain wants to leave it on forever, that's my point about how BROKEN he would be if he could, and the whole point behind the ramping mana cost in the first place. I'd suggest you try to think about what people say before acting all condescending, it only makes you come across as arrogant and misinformed, which I sincerely doubt you are.

Hibeki3 votes

I hope you realize the ult cooldown is on average eight seconds

That's not something you can turn on and off

junglerboy161 votes

8 WHOLE SECONDS???

oh my goodness, what a dreadfully long cooldown.

Sarcasm aside, what on earth do you build him with that leaves you without any CDR?

Hibeki3 votes

Early game? Too busy rushing rod of ages and boots then zhonyas. Like a normal swain.

Outside of lane the mana cost doesn't really matter.

junglerboy161 votes

Well then be more specific about what you mean in the OP, because you were talking about how he burns through his mana pool at level 18, which simply isn't accurate.

Arakadia1 votes

You don't build CDR on Swain normally. The items that have it don't fit with him well. Rylais, Liandry's, RoA, Zhonyas, Rabadons, Visage, and boots.

SettDownShutUp2 votes

I like this discussion. Let's talk.

Swain's costs are excessive due to several key balancing points.

  • The Keystone Mastery 'Dangerous Game' granting 5% health and mana on champ kill,
  • Swain's passive that gives 9% mana on kill of an enemy champion,
  • Unholy Grail which gives exceptional mana regen as well as an insane 30% mana based reward for killing a champ.

As you can see, Swain is best rewarded for going all in, drinking deep from his mana then replenishing it on killing a target.

Swain's passive (along with Xeraths) annoy me, in that as a player I feel almost cheated out of an ability. Swain in particular is incredibly hard to last hit with. I do understand that these passives being the way they are allow for more power elsewhere (Crow form), but with the item changes soon to arrive I think it's definitely time to make a second pass on his passive.

So currently Riot's new ideology for Mana is Damage casters should build mana pools while Mana Regen is for Support casters. Swain's going to build Morellonomicon instead of Unholy Grail for the now 20% mana on kill/assist. I'm already furrowing my brow. CDR isn't the best for swain, who benefits more from straight stats, and going through a single rotation of his skills before popping into crowform . And Grievous Wounds has taken a serious hit these days, only affecting self healing.

I'm no theorist, and I'm not even saying that the items are going to be bad (I will miss spellvamp.) But I agree in that this is the perfect time to review mana costs and perhaps add an interesting passive to the crippled commander.

Hibeki2 votes

You can't revolve a champion due to items and getting kills. This totally warps the purpose of a champion, and getting kills shouldn't be a NECESSITY for their kit to perform as needed.

Yes swain benefit's a lot from going all in, he's amazing at trading up as well as going all in, but it's the extended trades that are a problem. Swain cannot keep up with his mana in anything but a teamfight (and if he's behind, he wont last longer than a couple seconds anyway)

Either the early birds (pun intended) on ult need to do much more damage. Level 6 is not a time for massive teamfights, so the early 1v1 benefit of an added 60 damage per second + the extremely low healing is atrocious. In no way shape or form should using the ability for 3 seconds cost more than using the entire rest of his kit at that stage.

SettDownShutUp1 votes

I agree that Champions shouldn't revolve around items, yet that's what can happen. Mundo and Force of Nature, Vlad and Hextech Revolver, more recently Rageblade and Kog'Maw.

In these 3 situations, Force of Nature was removed. Vlad is in limbo and can't recieve any meanginful changes on account of how spellvamp magnifies any adjustment for better or worse, and Kog'maw got some nasty reassignment surgery (after rageblade took it's own dent too.)

I think Swain is currently in the second state. Limbo. Increasing his damage would insane, I can practically 2 v 1 as it is. And while yes, that heal can be abysmal early on, it's an amount of regen that most champs don't have access to without investing gold.

I don't think his ult can be touched in damage nor health in its current state, it's already very strong from both those angles. Not without some way to gate it/limit it.

Hibeki1 votes

Which is why i didn't really ask for damage, I just want the mana to be lower.

Titanium702 votes

Besides the attitude that I like Swains Manacosts because they're giving the player alot more to think about, which I stated in my own post....

I'm curious: WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER BUILD THIS ABYSMAL GRAIL ON SWAIN!!! x'D Ok I get it: The passive is great, but the rest is garbage! D: It's halve the AP of RoA and grants no health just a tiny amount of MR. Grails is so terrible it's not even good on Galio!

Building the Grail theroeticly forces you to get another Mana-Item because the Passive, SwainsPassive and the Mastery all scale with maximum Mana. And IF you decide you want two Mana Items RoA-Arch into Deathcap rule supreme.

I used to build Grail once (when it was good) and it felt pretty lackluster, but after it got hit serveral times... just no - Rod or Arch or even both if you want infinite Mana but grail is not worth the costs. (Or FH is the enemy is so smart and Picks a full Ad-Comp. <3 Nothing tastes better than Salty Assassin Tears garnished with FreeElo. =D)

About Mana-Passives: While I agree Xeraths and Lissandras Passive are just an exuse for ridiculous Manacosts on their Qs I have to disagree looking at Veigar and Swain. I have no real grasp why. But especially Swains Passive feels really rewarding. The passive changes the way you play in Teamfights and this makes it a good Passive. Besides it feels really powerfull from Level 1 to Level 18 because of its two parts.

Unlike Lissandra, Swain does not have this one spell in laning which is the whole reason for the passive. Swains whole Kit goes hand in hand with his passive and that's something I appreciate.

Swain is the guy who uses incredible amounts of Mana, YEP. But that's totally fine as long as he gets rewarded for doing so - and he gets rewarded... with new Katalyst even more which could be SLIGHTLY broken... cough.. cough...

Arakadia1 votes

I couldnt agree more. I just hope they don't nerf Swain into the ground when new catalyst comes out.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

I couldnt agree more. I just hope they don't nerf Swain into the ground when new catalyst comes out.

the new Catalyst IS a nerf to him.

Arakadia1 votes

How? Like the mana and health regen on lv up was nice, but the passive will be better. He takes damage for mana, spends mana for ult to gain health, and gains health from ult. Seems like its better, but maybe I'm wrong.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

How? Like the mana and health regen on lv up was nice, but the passive will be better. He takes damage for mana, spends mana for ult to gain health, and gains health from ult. Seems like its better, but maybe I'm wrong.

i repeat :

first item 3027 giving #HALF its current mana

compare the amount of mana/hp that you regen with that 15% and how much you get from the lvl up from the current one.

Arakadia1 votes

Dam lol didn't realize it was that bad.

I was mostly talking about Catalyst passive.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

Dam lol didn't realize it was that bad.

I was mostly talking about Catalyst passive.

you would need to take 1333 dmg per level and spend 1000 mana per level to regen the same amount as the current item 3010 does (repeat, PER LEVEL and not PER RECALL) so yeah, it's worse and more if you consider that it's normally an item you rush (if you wanna build item 3027 ) and the new passive is extremely bad during lane phase.

the only advantage is that you get the stats instantly instead of when you per level, but you get a whole lot less stats, i think they could at least buff the passive by a 5% (15%--->20%), but still the fact the passive is bad during lane conflicts with the fact item 3027 is an item you need to rush.

Tolinar2 votes

Generally, to get a decent performance out of Swain, I will actually start games with a Cull. This makes it significantly easier to last hit, which allows him to actually use his Passive.

It helps his early game quite a lot. Being able to calmly pick off minions and regenerate your pool is useful at the least. And getting bonus AD is actually just fine since Swain can increase it further with his E. item 1083 And later on, when you're all farmed up, you can sell the Cull and transition into heavy AP only.

I am thinking Swain may actually want to build...The new Catalyst.

As Swain's ult carries up into higher cost, his healing will accelerate, and for a Swain off-Lane, regaining is a pain. Having to do it less often, can only be good. Swain is one of the few champs that can spend 166 mana per second easily, getting the maximum benefit from Catalyst fast. What's more, if the enemy dives him while he's dry, and knocks off a huge chunk of his health, he'll get the mana to fight back - with CC or a quick activation of his ultimate.

I really like this item on Swain.Swain item 3010

SettDownShutUp1 votes

That's not a bad idea.

Nekusen1 votes

{quoted}

Generally, to get a decent performance out of Swain, I will actually start games with a Cull. This makes it significantly easier to last hit, which allows him to actually use his Passive.

It helps his early game quite a lot. Being able to calmly pick off minions and regenerate your pool is useful at the least. And getting bonus AD is actually just fine since Swain can increase it further with his E. item 1083

a waste of gold, if you wanna get ad to farm it would be just better to start item 1036item 2031 and eventually get item 3146 Or "better"(less bad) yet, AD runes.

I am thinking Swain may actually want to build...The new Catalyst.

As Swain's ult carries up into higher cost, his healing will accelerate.

the healing on Catalyst has a top limit of 25 hp per cast, so he gets more HP from the current on at lvl ups, and his mana consumption on his ult increases exponentially, so unless they change it, you will probably get at most, something like 100 hp before you run out of mana.

So in that regard (again, if they don't change his ult), the new item 3070 might be better on him.

Arakadia1 votes

Does his E still amplify his AA's? I know they removed the ignite amp. I like dorans because its like a second Swain passive, however cull could be just as good. I'll have to try that.

Titanium702 votes

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree.

I'm maining this guy my selfe and yes, Swain has tons of weaknesses. He can't chase, he can't run, he cant engage well, he needs to get fed, he suffers against mobility and his Manacosts are ridiculous, but still... I consider Swain really powerfull. He can deal with nearly every Champ in Midlane and is a terrible DMG-thread while being hard to kill when even slightly ahead.

Concerning the Manacosts, THIS is something so many people hate about him but I love it. As Swain both your Mana and your Healthbar are always moving and are telling you how to move next, go deeper, get out, get a kill as fast as possible or spread your DMG as wide as you can, his Passive and his Ult are amazing in terms of gameplay in lane and especially in large scale Teamfights. Swain is one of these Casters who can basicly throw their entire Resource-pool at once into a fight if necessary and you get rewarded if you do so by an equal amount.

That's why I hope they wont touch his Manacosts in the MYMU or the announced Rework* as well as his Passive and Ult should stay in place. But the rest of Swains Kit is pretty outdated. That's why I'm curios what they have in mind for QWE to give them more depths. ^^ (Especially W is more of a bad joke after the Nerf)

One thing left: Dont ask for Swain-Buffs! Have you seen the Item-Changes, do you have any idea what this means for Swain? Exactly: [zombie-brand-mindblown]

All I can hope for is that noone makes this guy FOTM after the Itemchanges. x'D

*Swain is now listed to get some changes, does this mean they dont want to rework him anymore??? No Idea, I would not be sad. =P

Arakadia1 votes

All I can hope for is that noone makes this guy FOTM after the Itemchanges. x'D

Same. I hope he isn't nerfed into the ground either.

I agree a TON with your post. I think once he gets a VGU, his Q should change but keep an interaction with Beatrice that isn't his ult, keep his sustain and DotA, keep his low mobility but tankyness, and add a new passive maybe? I think a new/changed W/E would be good, another passive to give hiim more counterplay, and change his Q comepletely except for the beatirce interaction.

J E B A ł T E D1 votes

The mage rework is coming soon, I believe this will fix a good amount of his mana problems.

Strabane1 votes

Swain is about picking people after landing his W. What crippled Swain was his W not rooting as long as it used too. Because it's so short, you can't get the full benefits of a 2 second ult + Q + E damage. Swain isn't about running around spamming his ult for 12 seconds and spamming spells. He is about catching people and get killing them; not battles out of attrition.

Arakadia1 votes

Greetings Fellow Swain main!

I think Swain could use an added or new passive. He really lacks waveclear and cs'ing with him is quite difficult. This could/should be changed. One idea I had for his Q was:

Q: Decripify: Swain calls out Beatrice to fly out in a line. Enemies hit are slowed and damaged for X damage after Beatrice squacks out with a burst of magic. If the target is afflicted with Torment, Beatrice creates a tether between her and the targets hit, slowing them for a longer duration and increasing the duration of torment by one second. This is a linear skillshot that deals a small circle of damage at max range or upon hitting an enemy.

I think his spells should be less "Fire and forget" and could use a bit more counterplay. I think in his lowscope update in the mage update he should get a new passive and Q interaction be more interesting. In his eventual VGU he should get a new/another passive, new beatrice interaction, more counterplay, and visual update.

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