@Riot Repertoir: Please Clear Up the confusion, Our Math Skills Are Horrendous and it wont take long

Professor Ward·Apr 26, 2018·32 votes·31,373 views

Plain and simple.

Is the interaction between Jhin, and guinsoos rageblade bugged? Or is it simply large numbers happening? Im still not seeing any direct quotes on this, and its really becoming a clusterfawk in here about it.

My math says you can hit 1k+ ad on basically any champion in the game with the item but id like to hear it straight from the horses mouth. Thanks in advance!!

Edit: Personally confirmed 1636 attack damage on with sub optimal runes..... Im not seeing the bug unless its not jhin specific and in fact is guinsoos specific.

71 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 26, 201866 votes

The extremely high amounts of AD are the results of different %amps acting recursively with each other. It's not an issue unique to Jhin, and there are other instances of recursive stat increases in the game, but it is certainly most pronounced on him. A change is already locked into the 8.9 to address this with Rageblade.

Professor WardApr 26, 201823 votes

{quoted}

The extremely high amounts of AD are the results of different %amps acting recursively with each other. It's not an issue unique to Jhin, and there are other instances of recursive stat increases in the game, but it is certainly most pronounced on him. A change is already locked into the 8.9 to address this with Rageblade.

Thanks!! And much love as always!!!

IfnethApr 26, 20186 votes

Thanks!

AirKingNeoApr 26, 20188 votes

Why wasn't this put into 8.8 or hotfixed on 8.7? Even Vlad 1 patch after rework got this bugged fixed.

Serious lack of accountability on this.

Luxanna MagicaApr 27, 201810 votes

Because it's not actually as bad as you're making it seem? lol

it takes him 6 shots to stack and he only gets 4 before he has to reload, he needs 4+ items for it to be effective, if he needs to ult he has to drop all those stacks, and he's still a 550 range marksman with no mobility

by the time he meets all those conditions, Twitch, Tristana, Caitlyn, or even Jinx would have mowed down his entire team from 1000 range, or Xayah kills him with feathers, or Kai'Sa shows up behind him and 1-shots him before melting the rest of his team

The Bearded BardApr 27, 20183 votes

yeah but it's not just him. I've seen Dravens throw it into their build, Varus runs rampant with it (Even as a Varus main, I'll admit the item makes him too strong. Jax demolishing anyone near him with it. The item is too strong, that's all there is to it.

Auz the RipperApr 27, 20185 votes

Varus ran it even before the change and has run it this entire time for a completely different reason.

The Bearded BardApr 27, 20181 votes

Yeah for sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't a busted item. I'm not saying that Varus is OP, I'm saying the item is OP.

Clash Is TrashApr 27, 20182 votes

these changes will make no difference to varus or draven as they have no multipliers in their kits? it may make them slightly weaker with infernals but thats all i can think off.

mikexcelsiorApr 27, 20181 votes

This issue with Rageblade actually is just him. His passive and Rageblade stack AD recursively. It's working as expected for the other champs you named.

zomguberproApr 27, 20181 votes

plain wrong bro, master yi gets more ad based on the ad he already has

gets a shit ton of ad from rage blade, since rage blade also gives bonus ad based on the ad you already have

ProjecLApr 27, 20181 votes

I wouldn't say he has 0 mobility, at 3 items Jhin is pretty much permanently going to be at like 600 MS whenever he shoots. But I completely agree on everything else. Yeah reaching 1k+ AD on a champion that late game crits every AA seems broken, but the enemy team late game is usually dead before this happens.

TonyTonyMordecaiApr 26, 20182 votes

How does it work? Is the change a way to add % bonus to bonus ad from items alone or is it something else?

DarkRitualApr 27, 20182 votes

It and his passive keep granting incresed stats.

Rageblad sees stats, grants more. Jhin passive sees new stats, grants more! Rageblade sees these new stats and give more!

At least that's basically how it was explained previously.

DepressedAhriApr 27, 20182 votes

So basically it's as if Vlad's passive didn't say "This effect does not stack with itself"?

SpoofghoulApr 27, 20181 votes

something like that

My Waifu VanillaApr 28, 20181 votes

Kind of. Jhin's main problem on the item is that it gives A LOT of AS for his passive to work with with while also giving really big % numbers to work with. Each stack doesn't actually ADD anything besides the AS to increase his passive. The bug with Jhin is probably how they want the passive %ad amp and rageblade %ad amp to work together. It will still PROBABLY be worth buying on him late game after the changes depending on how they work together since 1000 AD would probably still be in the ballpark with the item (as opposed to stuff like 1400).

Vlad's passive problem is the fact that without that clause his passive would actually give him NEAR infinite health and AP by itself. Due to rounding you can't actually reach "infinite" since the bonus would eventually reach below 0.5 AP/HP based on constantly reapplying the % on itself (which is why 2 Zed's ulting each other will never reach infinite AD since the bonus you get will soon be sub 0.5 AD), but you would still reach an absurd hp/ap value before that becomes the case.

PopcornBunniApr 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

The extremely high amounts of AD are the results of different %amps acting recursively with each other. It's not an issue unique to Jhin, and there are other instances of recursive stat increases in the game, but it is certainly most pronounced on him. A change is already locked into the 8.9 to address this with Rageblade.

Ryze item 3040 is another one, but the recursion approaches 0 very quickly, being 3% Mana and 5% AP, where Jhin item 3124 is 20% AD and 25% AS, which take many, many more recursions before they fall off.

The % move speed fed into adaptive stat of Celerity also stacks recursively with %movespeed boosts like Lulu Nami Janna Sona Kayle

MordepoolApr 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The extremely high amounts of AD are the results of different %amps acting recursively with each other. It's not an issue unique to Jhin, and there are other instances of recursive stat increases in the game, but it is certainly most pronounced on him. A change is already locked into the 8.9 to address this with Rageblade.

Anything for Melee users of Rageblade?

What Is SmiteApr 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Anything for Melee users of Rageblade?

Yi, E gives 10% bonus AD passively and it's amp is affected by rageblade amp

Tryndamere Q is flat AD so no amp there

Aatrox 25% amp is Base AD so it's not affected by Rageblade either

It's only skills/abilities that grant % Bonus AD that are massively affected by Rageblade, Crit users like Jhin and Yi are very problomatic from a damage perspective because that high damage gets further amplified by a 2x (2.5x with IE) amp on critical hits

MordepoolApr 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xL6mEm9M,comment-id=000200060000,timestamp=2018-04-27T05:38:23.278+0000)

Yi, E gives 10% bonus AD passively and it's amp is affected by rageblade amp

Tryndamere Q is flat AD so no amp there

Aatrox 25% amp is Base AD so it's not affected by Rageblade either

It's only skills/abilities that grant % Bonus AD that are massively affected by Rageblade, Crit users like Jhin and Yi are very problomatic from a damage perspective because that high damage gets further amplified by a 2x (2.5x with IE) amp on critical hits

Sorry. My question was directed at the state of melee rageblade users. Relative to their ranged counterparts. Since all I see are ranged users

What Is SmiteApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sorry. My question was directed at the state of melee rageblade users. Relative to their ranged counterparts. Since all I see are ranged users

Well for Melee Rageblade users to even compare to their ranged counter parts they'd need both a Frozen Mallet/Black Cleaver and Merc Treads in order to make full use of their Rageblade when their ranged counter-parts can do it from... well ranged

AnataBakkaApr 26, 20182 votes

can you change the way guinsoo's bonus%ad stacks with dragon?

currently the bonus % ap stacks additively with dragon and rabadon's but his bonus % ad stacks recursively with dragon

SmitemuffinApr 27, 20183 votes

So why did nobody notice this before it launched? It was immediately obvious to so many players upon release

grarrrgApr 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So why did nobody notice this before it launched? It was immediately obvious to so many players upon release

(Numbers are not exact, only for illustrative purposes) In house say they have 100 testers working 40 hours/week for a month for every patch. >16,000 work hours total to test the totality of the changes. Patch goes live, say a quarter of a million players are online. In one hour they do 250,000 work hours of testing.

No contest. (You can tweak the numbers all you want, even with the PBE, the Live numbers will always dwarf the testing numbers)

The in house team focuses on what might be trouble areas, and a few general passes. And a good chunk of that is repeat testing on iterations that didn't work. From here forward though, they will likely keep a closer eye on Jhin and any future % damage/AS items/changes.

I am RazgrizApr 27, 20181 votes

Can you make Jax, Yi, and Nocturne update their bonus AD and AP values when applicable?

For example; a Yi who casts E but continues stacking Rageblade, same for Jax and casting ult. A Nocturne who lands Q mid ult dash. Other examples are more niche but also possible.

Auz the RipperApr 27, 20181 votes

I'd be careful with nocturne. it would effectively just add 130 base damage to his ult without any tradeoff.

I am RazgrizMay 3, 20181 votes

90, but even then it's hard to pull off because your ult angle and the Q angle you can take don't always agree and you dash faster than Q travel speed while Q has a cast time and always starts from where you cast it. It's not impossible, but it rewards good Nocturne play. It's actually harder to pull off than you think.

It affects his own Q instead more consistently. Adding 45 damage to it at rank 5.

ShahamutApr 27, 20181 votes

Is it already on the pbe? I checked surrender@20 But didn't see anything.

Jesus is SaviorApr 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The extremely high amounts of AD are the results of different %amps acting recursively with each other. It's not an issue unique to Jhin, and there are other instances of recursive stat increases in the game, but it is certainly most pronounced on him. A change is already locked into the 8.9 to address this with Rageblade.

Only for Jhin, or for everyone?

Will it affect my Yi?

Mysticman89Apr 27, 20182 votes

Strictly speaking that doesn't address if it's a bug or 'large numbers happening'.

My interpretation is that the recursion is(/was) intended behavior (since as you say, it exists elsewhere), and so not technically a bug. However, the potential strength of it may not have been foreseen, and it's such that it's going to be changed to be non-recursive, however this is simply a nerf rather than a bug fix.

The other possible interpretation is that the recursion occurring is itself a bug that wasn't supposed to happen, on jhin or otherwise.

Not that it makes any practical difference, but theres been people arguing past each other with "Rageblade jhin is bugged to give excessive numbers" "No, rageblade jhin is just really strong, but the math checks out" "No it's a bug, no way that's intended" etc. and it'd be nice to put such an argument to bed. (Although I suppose where the change is listed in the patch notes might address it.)

LethalTempo JhinApr 27, 20187 votes

The interaction between Rageblade and Jhin is working just fine.

The issue is, they don't want it to work like that.

When they reworked Rageblade, they kinda forgot that bonus %AS and %AD might be a problem, since one champion directly scales from bonus %AS and %AD.

CaenenApr 27, 20181 votes

So if I understand you correctly the (0.04*6) modifier on Rageblade will now stack additively with Whisper's 40%+ and any Infernal drakes? Looks good, brings it in line with the AP interactionm while making it easier to calculate the AD one would get from a 6 hour game with Rageblade Jhin...

dank jeffApr 27, 20181 votes

does that mean Garen will have lots of ad*[zombie-brand-mindblown]* [garen-swing] im garen main thats why im askin lol

sKz Aaron DApr 27, 20181 votes

How come, if rageblade is not allowed in pro play on these champions, and pro games are supposed to be the same game that we play, this was not disabled on live when it was discovered?

kagepaladinApr 27, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser B-B-But my ghost [sg-janna]

QUINNIA MANMANWApr 28, 20181 votes

If you want to nerf this item btw , why just don't come back with flat number and not % ?

TehNACHOApr 26, 20186 votes

Well one thing I'd like to question is if the percentage bonuses from Guinsoo's passive and Jhin's passive add or multiply together. If they add, sure okay it's strong but expectedly so. If they multiply, holy shit.

Professor WardApr 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well one thing I'd like to question is if the percentage bonuses from Guinsoo's passive and Jhin's passive add or multiply together. If they add, sure okay it's strong but expectedly so. If they multiply, holy shit.

"The attack damage multiplier stacks recursively with other sources of % attack damage."

From the lol wiki on guinsoos

TehNACHOApr 26, 20182 votes

...ELI5?

I am RazgrizApr 27, 20183 votes

So remember Vlad? If Vlad buys HP he gets AP and if he buys AP he gets HP. However the HP you get from buying AP can not give you AP. If it did, this would be recursive. Jhin's passive is recursive.

TotalJerkApr 28, 20181 votes

Passive increases his bonus AD by a percentage, rageblade increases AD by a percentage. His passive sees some bonus AD and gives him some more based off it; rageblade sees that bonus AD and gives him some more based off it; passive sees THAT bonus AD and...

That happens in a loop infinitely until the number gets small enoughl that the game rounds it down to zero.

BobaFlautistApr 26, 20187 votes

I mean that's probably not working as intended. Recursive stacking is rarely intended.

Professor WardApr 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I mean that's probably not working as intended. Recursive stacking is rarely intended.

seems like an extreme mistake though, as the way the damage stacks should be the backbone of any formula. Should be impossible actually.

And after some research it seems that rabadons stacks recursively with all other sources of ap aside from guinsoos and infernal drake, theres no way that this is a mistake honestly.

They figured there wasnt enough %bonus ad to bust the item, kept it safe with rabadons for all ap buyers, and forgot jhin existed...

YumaS2AstralApr 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Professor Ward,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xL6mEm9M,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-26T21:03:56.395+0000)

They figured there wasnt enough %bonus ad to bust the item, kept it safe with rabadons for all ap buyers, and forgot jhin existed...

they didn't forgot, they just didn't expected jhin to buy this since he makes no use of on-hit effects at all, and this item is intended to be used by on-hit champions.

Auz the RipperApr 27, 20182 votes

It's also working recursively with infernal drakes and they happen alot

sKz Aaron DApr 27, 20181 votes

Yeah, the problem is that it's working exactly the way they designed it to, but they didn't want it to work the way it was designed. With that being the case, I don't understand why it wasn't disabled on the problem champions that it works on in the unwanted way. Especially because they aren't allowed to use it in LCS on them.