Always liked being rewarded for harass in lane as support, and the reward you got for doing it well.
Now the support role just lost one of its better "mechanics", something we didnt need.
Thanks for ruining the fun gp :l
Edit: Starting to agree its for the better overall. Pretty solid points were made. And i recommend reading some of them below!!
Attticus Finch37 votesThe funny thing about this thread is the implication that Lulu wasn't already a brain-dead non-interactive champion who existed to just polymorph or press R when necessary in lane.
Supreme Senpai6935 votesShe could be so much more. It's terrifying. Have you never seen an aggro Lulu? One who uses Q every time it is up and forces both enemies out of lane by herself? Or one who Es a minion to Q the ADC from farther away, sniping a kill secure? I still have nightmares.
500000000000000020 votesIt really sucks that a lot of enchanter supports have a lot of potential for aggressive plays, especially in lane, but they're still generally seen as passive laners. I love going aggro on Soraka, sometimes even with Arcane Comet.
SpecterVonBaren5 votesPart of the problem is how deadly the initiator supports have become and how much increased burst there now is in botlane.
Corrupt Bliss5 votesAnd how much incentive there is for initiator supports vs enchanters.
With the removal of bandit, enchanter type supports lose a lot of incentive to harass and poke. IMO Bandit really showed the difference between good and bad supports.
DarkKatalyst5 votesThat's the only way I can play Lulu. People who say she's brain-dead either don't play her, or don't know how to play her aggressively. People who play supports passively are playing them wrong IMO.
Spicy Rice6 votesCalling lulu a brain dead champion isn't saying that there is no skill involved, rather, it is saying that the amount of skill it takes to make her effective is so low, it might as well be nonexistent.
To put it another way, while her skill ceiling may be decently high, her skill floor is so low, that the 9th level of hell is in the stratosphere by comparison
DarkKatalyst3 votesI'm not so sure, I don't think doing the bare minimum with Lulu offers anything more than other enchanter supports. Playing her passively means losing a lot of potential damage and pressure. Also, passive positioning won't put you close enough to polymorph.
I don't think you can call someone effective in that case, especially when going up against supports that play aggro. If I'm playing Leona or Nami aggressively against a passive Lulu, she's not going to win.
Spacesuit Spiff2 votesIm with this in the sense that if youre support in soloq, you should be aspiring to win lane just from a gaining elo perspective. That said, any monkey can play her passively and be a pain to play against.
Professor Ward2 votes[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqiWgWT1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-03-09T18:21:42.258+0000)
The funny thing about this thread is the implication that Lulu wasn't already a brain-dead non-interactive champion who existed to just polymorph or press R when necessary in lane.
From my experience at playing lulu.
q>polymorph almost all of the time for disengage. Justsayin. W is used on my chasing adc for as/ms steroid 300% more than on enemies. Justsayin.
Polymorph doesnt offer enough mobility gimp, sure theyre a full speed butterfly for a few secs, but after that theyre still a 4-0 camille, one 80% slow from q does more than polymorph almost ever will.
RiotRiotRepertoir29 votesIf the best way to get a champion to harass their opponent is to throw gold at them, then its available harass incentives may not tuned correctly. The more your actions result in clear and immediate advantages/disadvantages in a laning scenario, the better we're probably off.
InTheory3 votesI don't quite get what you want to say with that. Do you mean you're looking into other tools to give supports reasons to be interactive with their opponent or are you ok with the state after the changes?
RiotRiotRepertoir20 votesAt the moment, I'm fine with seeing the state of things following all the recent support item changes. What I meant was that if we want to make harrassing people with champions like Lulu better, we can do that without just throwing gold at the problem.
Sorry for the confusion.
Dope Solo5 votes[zombie-brand-facepalm] But instead of giving you gold, we'll just do nothing instead. How about nothing, does that sound fun? Yaaaaaay nothing!
Excuse me, and I don't mean to just be glib about it, but it seems that support was probably the role that gets auto-filled most often, and is considered to be the least fun to play. How exactly are you suggesting that changes to bandit, and other recent support item changes have fixed/will effect THOSE problems specifically? Because, what you've done so far, has been very one-directional. While these might be part of some bigger (hypothetical?) changes upcoming, at this point you're leaving support players empty handed.
I think the biggest problem with your statement above is, "I'm fine with", and "if we want". The players have already been pretty clear I think with what they want.
RiotRiotRepertoir22 votesFrostfang and Eye had the gold reward on their procs increased. To say you don't like that tactic is cool, but to say we just ignored it isn't really right.
2Behold1 votesI think people are mostly worried about how it feels. Like you might get the same amount of gold but it doesn't feel like it in game as you play. I mean i could be wrong im just guessing. (are supports getting about the same amount of gold with bandit removed?)
Sp33d Zer011 votesIt should FEEL like you are winning lane because you are harassing the enemy bot lane causing them to miss cs or lose the trade. The gold should be a bonus, not the incentive.
Professor Ward3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqiWgWT1,comment-id=000b000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-09T23:34:25.979+0000)
It should FEEL like you are winning lane because you are harassing the enemy bot lane causing them to miss cs or lose the trade. The gold should be a bonus, not the incentive.
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Kubox3 votesOdd that you'd bring this item up as it's ... well ... there you go, bandit being gone does nothing.
Every single support champion that has poke scales with AP. This means that if you are going to interact with the enemy laner regularly through the laning phase, going spellthief is what you're looking for.
The only time you should pick coin is if you are in a lane where poking puts you in too much risk. And while yes, coin no long gives you some gold for doing so, you are still rewarded for poking (should you attempt and succeed to do so) more safety has making the enemy lower means they can't jump on you.
You're basically complaining that you no longer need to suicide on the enemy Alistar when going coin Lulu (an odd thought, as if you were planning to play that way Spellthief would be better), which honestly, is good game design in my book : Coin exists for those not wanting/being able to interact with the enemy afterall, so why would you put a part of it's gp10 behind interacting with the enemy.
LordGeovanni1 votesExecpt that Coin is a more risky pick than the Pick line because of you having to walk into a specific area to pick up coins versus poking from max range with the pick line.
Kubox1 votesEhh, while I will agree that coin is risky, it's very much champion dependant. Sona for example should never buy coin as her Q is free Spellthief procs. But someone like Janna, that has to go very close to W the enemy, is still safer with coin. I think for most enchanters, coin is safer, if only because not every coin is a risky pick, unlike poking that always puts you at risk.
LordGeovanni1 votesunless you melee you will aways have to go closer to get a coin than to use any of your ranged spells or autos
Kubox1 votesSorry but we'll have to agree to disagree. Unless the enemy is freezing the lane at his tower, which is not popular these days with first towers and everything, most coins give you enough room to play around the enemy bot lane.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou are speaking from a Potiental getting ganked scenario. I am speaking from being in range for the enemy laners which is a much more constant threat.
Kubox1 votesNo, I'm not. Lulu, Janna or Soraka regularly walking into AA range to poke is never safe unless the enemy is braindead or so bad that you were, in an indirect way, wrong for not being greedy and going spellthief.
Most enchanter supports don't have proper tools to consistently poke from a safe range and those that do will never go coin, even in a bad matchup.
Professor Ward2 votesIf the best way to get a champion to harass their opponent is to throw gold at them, then its available harass incentives may not tuned correctly. The more your actions result in clear and immediate advantages/disadvantages in a laning scenario, the better we're probably off.
I get where youre coming from, but i feel that with that alone, bandit would still exist. Other roles abusing the items seemed to be a much larger problem than delayed rewards.
Also, speaking of delayed rewards, lets talk support starting items...
** Support starting items work exactly how you explained you DIDNT want things to work. They are "do things now, get rewarded a lil(or a lot) later" items in every way. They function IDENTICALLY TO BANDIT. In fact as im sure you know, Bandit was literally cut from the same cloth as support item quests lol. So there im a little lost. **
Overall its hard to complain, as this makes playing lulu safer at every point in game for me, but i dont want her at a must nerf state.
Proccing bandit on lulu was a huge risk, got me killed many times, now i wont have that risk, and thats huge for my winrate.
The problem here isnt supports, or their items, or anything in between, Its abilities that proc on hits, and the champions who use them. Its killing the support game right now.
Thanks for the input though man, you deserve a raise!!!!
RiotRiotRepertoir11 votesSupport starting items work exactly how you explained you DIDNT want things to work. They are "do things now, get rewarded a lil(or a lot) later" items in every way. They function IDENTICALLY TO BANDIT. In fact as im sure you know, Bandit was literally cut from the same cloth as support item quests lol. So there im a little lost.
Definitely not going to pretend the support item's are in a perfect state. The work that goes into them has to take a the interaction of a bunch of different gameplay needs into consideration. Whenever that's true, tradeoffs are almost always involved. It sucks taking away things players probably like, and in a game with a bunch of players, some number of players could surely be attached to pretty much anything in the game you could point at. Those tradeoffs are difficult and painful to make. In this case, we trade off Bandit being something that many players likely enjoy as an incentive to reduce item bloat and cut off abuse cases. If you really don't like the tradeoff we've made in this case, and you continue to feel this way moving forward, I do encourage you to keep expressing that sentiment.
Dope Solo1 votesIs it really the items, or the role you're trying to force people into playing? The concept of 'support', seems...off.
TequilaZombie3 votesSupports came up not due to Riot, but due to the player base itself. There are 4 gold sources in the map, but 5 players. People eventually found out that it was better to have a single very gold starved champion in their team than two slightly gold starved (same mentality that moved the meta away from duo top), and were picking champions who did not relied on gold to be effective to fill the gold-less position.
iGaveUpAtLast2 votesWhat I liked about bandit is that it felt like an objective rather than an incentive. I'm a (former) support main and I've always been more fond of 
rather than 
because it made the role more interactive. I hated the time when Ancient Coin was the go to support item because it was boring and now I feel the same about Spellthief's Edge. Timing my poke and abilities in order to get the most out of my stacks just made the role more fun and I felt like I was more than just a harass/shiel/heal/all-in robot. A lot of my actions were based on my bandit stacks but now I just feel like a braindead players with no real goals. I've learned so much about trading, timing and positioning thanks to Spellthief's Edge. It's not even about the gold reward for me but about the feeling that there's something I've accomplished if I did a good job. Honestly atm I refuse to play support and I will probably not go back to it in case the role continues on its current path.
TeCoolMage14 votesThe problem is it gave gold on minion death, now non-coin users are more heavily rewarded for roaming right after using a stack of spellthief procs or relic shield minions (so it's charging up while you roam and you lose no gold).
Auto attack gold is nice too but it made bad matchups for melee champions even worse and with ranged champions spellthief's is already rewarding and coin... yeah coin is a bit of a problem sometimes.
So what I'm saying is... blame ancient coin
rtbf2256182413 votesSo..why not just have it as a rune? It was originally a mastery.
PokladnicaZla5 votesBecause that would limit support's choice of runes.
Häxel8 votesif you would have a rune you still would neeed to balancesupportitems after the rune or the rune on its best users. Also you basicly have it still as rune with Kleptomancy and as you can see, it is already hard to balance cause Gp and Ezreal can realy good abuse it. Making another nonkeystonerune would be bad. So yes, if you want to get rewarded with playing aggresive you can still use Kleptomancy or you just use aery or grasp.
Doozku5 votesYou mean kleptomancy?
Pika Fox13 votesPretty much. Support gets fun items, literally every other role in the game ruins them for support. Now we have this mess of stuff that feels absolutely horrible to use and im sure riot doesnt really like it either. The t3 support items are a total gold waste and not worth the cost in any form.
Häxel4 votesSo to upgrade to 
is now realy not worth upgrading cause you can get the farm punishment removal already by finishing the quest and only get 200 Health and 10Ap for 550 Gold. But ithat is actualy good cause 
, 
and other mage supports can now finish earlier their 
or 
and only need to upgrade it then it comes to a full inventory and effizienty.
Same for Enchanters like 
, 
etc can go for their 
, 
etc.
To Upgrade to 
and 
is still gold effizient cause you get either 200 Health and 75% Healthreg for 250 Gold or 225 Health, 150%Healthreg and 10% Cdr for 550 Gold and especialy the relic users get their healthpool they need in their itembuild. Also relic the line that hasn't the cdr already on the tier 2 item. Coinline cnsidering passive enchanters or passive tanks tend to go that can be ok to upgrade cost it is gold effizient, but you also can try to focus on finish first 1 or 2 other items.
Pika Fox1 votesExcept you delay your build so long that you dont get your actual support items and dong become useful for your team until much later. Before, you had powerful team utility actives on your goldgen. Now you just have fucking wards, and im tired of being stuck with the most boring mechanic in the game being shoved down supports face instead of actually enjoying the game with nice, fun items that reward me for playing well.
Also, Its really just not worth the gold to go tier 3. Its just really not.
Häxel1 votesIt is. it realy is. Pros always 90% of the time the combined sightstone already instead of these "powerfull actives". cause it gives space in the inveontory for farther, more powerfull items and controlwards, they costed less as going rubys and an active supportitem while you had most time more impact. Face of the mountain was a little bit diffrent cause it allowed tanksupports to do the same as shieldsupports.
And to upgrade targosn is realy worth cause you need the hp considering your next items on a tanksupport don't give that much health (
-> 
/
-> 
, only knights vow gives a little bit of health).
And about your active items, 
returned, shureliyahs reverie comes 8.6 too so only items removed are literaly now face of the mountain and rubys sigthstone (but probably you don't miss rubys cause it just were boring wards or do you wanna tell me you went that item for the itemcdr ?). Fotm probably gets not an direct equa replacement but a new tanksupp item could come 8.8 or later maybe. ALso locket gets an rework to be less generalize but stronger in the right situations.
So stop your whining please, upgrading for 550 Gold to get cdr, health and healthreg while geting wards for free is still far more better as spending 800 gold just on a ward/health item. And for people who critisice that they got their shieldbattery and movementspeed removed from the quests for wards: pre 7.9 quests not even existed. Seeing that you still can earn something with generating your gold, even if they are "just wards", is still an improvement. and no longer 800 goldpaytax for sightstone.
Pika Fox1 votesAll of which are more costly than just going from t2 to t3 goldgen items.
The upgrades are trash. The reworked items are trash. Its a net loss for people that enjoyed playing league of legends and not league of wards. Wards suck. And now that the junglers lost their wards, guess whos the ONLY support bitch in the game again?
Häxel1 votesyour arguments are trash. league was already since season1 a vision game. before sighstone existed supports were just for buying vision wards and stealth wards. Supports literaly got over the years more and more free vision (sightstone) as also every other role (zombie ward/ghostporo, free trinketupgrades instead of 475/250 gold cost, visionplant, dusklbade). frostqueens got its replacement already. Talisman will get its replacement with better stats fo champs like rakan, bard, janna other enchanters, even thresh and taric. and the only active itemeffect that will not be replaced is face of the mountain. goldeffizienty you can easily see on the wiki with their effizienty as a whole and as an upgrade: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Remnant_of_the_Aspect http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Remnant_of_the_Ascended http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Remnant_of_the_Watchers With the final changes to frostline you should always upgrade to watchers last. And even with the healthnerfs to targonsline you should always upgrade to aspect first. And the ascendedupgrade is a situational upgrade. Support is on the piek of its power and all that can come now are just shifts to help support other classes as just adcs and nerfs.
All of which are more costly than just going from t2 to t3 goldgen items.
no clue what you want to tell with this sentence.
Pika Fox3 votesYour argument is the one thats trash.
Vision was always a major problem with league, and league being a 5 man game instead of a 4 man game with 4 gold income options and exp options was always a major issue. Riot fixed this by adding gold gen to the game, and nerfing how much vision one person could put out, while adding trinkets and items multiple roles could opt into to deal with the lesser vision.
With the removal of sightstone AND the jungle ward item, support is now shoe-stringed back in to being the only ward class in the game, which was the entire reason for the vision update; Reduce disparity between winning and losing team vision advantage, and to make it not the supports job.
And all the new support items t3 are trash. Full stop trash. They dont provide enough stats on their own to be worth it when you need to get other items asap moving into the mid game. The only reason the targons line needs to go to t3 is because it has CDR, and champs like leona really need that CDR to remain relevant, and tank items generally only get you 10%. Either way, the loss of the shield active far outweighs any benefits the item might possibly have.
And, again, the new support items are OBJECTIVELY less fun. Which is all that matters in a videogame.
"no clue what you want to tell with this sentence." You said they were bringing back the actives as other items. My statement is that thats pointless, as you build a t2 support item anyway. Unless these new items are 550g, its more costly.
Glory ln Death1 votesyou build a t2 support item anyway. Unless these new items are 550g, its more costly.
In order to get Spooky Ghosts previously: Buy Frostfang (850 gold), buy Sightstone (800 gold), buy FQC (1350 gold upgrade). Total cost: 3000 gold.
In order to get Spooky Ghosts on live: Buy Frostfang (850 gold), buy Twin Shadows (2400 gold). Total cost: 3250 gold.
Oh, no! Spooky Ghosts cost 250 extra gold! Oh, wait - you're a support, so you're going Inspiration secondary and at least getting 300 free gold from Magical Footwear.
Hmmmmmmmm.
Pika Fox1 votesI rarely bought sightstone. Wards only work when your team mates actually use them. If i ward, ping 5 times, and the ADC still wants to int into the enemy team, then ill just use my trinkets. Generally nets enough vision with the other options you get.
Glory ln Death2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uqiWgWT1,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-10T00:06:46.755+0000)
I rarely bought sightstone.
This explains so much. I can see that there is no point continuing this discussion.
Professor Ward1 votesIt is. it realy is. Pros always 90% of the time the combined sightstone already instead of these "powerfull actives". cause it gives space in the inveontory for farther, more powerfull items and controlwards, they costed less as going rubys and an active supportitem while you had most time more impact. Face of the mountain was a little bit diffrent cause it allowed tanksupports to do the same as shieldsupports. And to upgrade targosn is realy worth cause you need the hp considering your next items on a tanksupport don't give that much health (
And about your active items,
problem with this, is that literally over 90% of the games at my elo dont reach full build, completely countering any argument for an item slot.
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesIt allows for more components as well. You may not hit full build of "completed items" but items with garbage build paths like Rylais on mage supports were actually awkward to buy with FQC+SS+Boots since it had 3 components and if you wanted all 3 you lost out entirely on control wards. I would much rather be able to carry 5 items of decent value throughout the game and hold control wards than shoehorn a relatively low power active item in solo queue and lose out on control wards or potentially stats down the line (I could keep control wards in the Rylais example but then I lose out on 20 AP or some health).
nelogis9 voteswoah woah woah hold up there bud!
Bandit used to be one of GPs things not supports!
You took it away from him and he did the GP special and burned it all down
"I will burn it all down if I can't have it!" 
On a more serious note, supports are getting too much gold stuffed up their arse for doing nigh nothing so this is a good change.
InTheory20 votesOn a more serious note, supports are getting too much gold stuffed up their arse for doing nigh nothing so this is a good change.
But removing bandit from these items is even the opposite of your argument isn't it?
As OP said, removing the bandit causes supports to passively stay around even more.