I’m really confused here. It’s 800 - 1600 gold that you don’t have to spend anymore AND a free item slot. Also Riot has stated that they’re going to make new items for the passives.
You guys have to realize that supports actually have a HUGE impact on the game so they just can’t just massively buff a whole class.
IBgarbo11 votesIt dumbs down the role completely and removes item path diversity. There are matchups where you don't want to invest gold into sightstone early, and there are matchups that you want it on your first back. This removes all of that dictates when you have vision by, and at least for me it bothers me having my role dumbed down further when knowing when to build what can have a huge impact on the game.
Clint Orris4 votesIt dumbs down the role completely and removes item path diversity. There are matchups where you don't want to invest gold into sightstone early, and there are matchups that you want it on your first back. This removes all of that dictates when you have vision by, and at least for me it bothers me having my role dumbed down further when knowing when to build what can have a huge impact on the game.
Item path diversity?! Wtf lol Sightstone actually limited item path diversity. Now you ALWAYS have the option.
SEKAI8 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T14:37:36.003+0000)
Item path diversity?! Wtf lol Sightstone actually limited item path diversity. Now you ALWAYS have the option.
Doesn't the sightstone changes come at the expense of 
being deleted?
HaIlMonitor1 votesThe point they were making is right now if you want wards, scanner, and gold you have to have all 2 in item slots, one in trinket. Now you use one less item spot and virtually less gold so they can do stuff like rush ardent faster, or go right into tank items with out sacrificing themselves a bunch.
SEKAI4 votesThe point they were making is right now if you want wards, scanner, and gold you have to have all 2 in item slots, one in trinket. Now you use one less item spot and virtually less gold so they can do stuff like rush ardent faster, or go right into tank items with out sacrificing themselves a bunch.
I was just saying that killing off non-ward-centric supp item build paths is kinda what it means to limit item path diversity, if it's true.
Clint Orris1 votesI was just saying that killing off non-ward-centric supp item build paths is kinda what it means to limit item path diversity.
So the fuck what?! Players didn’t build the last upgrade until mid to late game anyway lol. The only reason those items are even purchased is for the gold.
And they’re introducing other support item with a whole different building path.
SEKAI5 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T15:07:44.422+0000)
So the fuck what?! Players didn’t build the last upgrade until mid to late game anyway lol. The only reason those items are even purchased is for the gold.
And they’re introducing other support item with a whole different building path.
I've rarely seen supports who left their supp core item's last upgrade to mid or late game. Most people just rush it, especially for those not using the ward-centric ones, because after all, the actives are juicy.
But then, if the non-ward supp items aren't just getting deleted, okay. It ain't so bad. Hopefully they don't fuck up the new build paths.
.....
Also I think being less antagonising on your part would be better.
RedstoneRailroad2 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T15:07:44.422+0000)
So the fuck what?! Players didn’t build the last upgrade until mid to late game anyway lol. The only reason those items are even purchased is for the gold.
And they’re introducing other support item with a whole different building path.
Do you ever play support? These items, often, are preferred over the counterparts because of stats and active effects. For a lot of tank supports, FOTM was the only way they could sheild an ally (example like Blitz). Then there is Talis, major item because it can impact fights with mobility for whole team. Plus stats, Soraka usually built Talis for the armor unlike it's counterpart which gave health (which isn't what she needs because heal takes % hp, why rush Warmogs is bad).
This also prevents earlygame vision, you HAVE to finish the item to get vision unlike simple 800 gold for sighstone. If you get pressured and constant gank, no way to get vision since behind. Futhermore, they are removing what quests were so example was sheild for the user with relic (no matter the path) which was really nice for a lot of tank supports.
People can complain "but we need more gold" "it gives us a slot." So? I mean look, good support can have enough gold with the current items and even get more with inspiration runes (debt, or boots which means you can use 350 gold on other items). With games ending early, how often does a person ever reach full build and even find useful items. As a support, it feels like, most of the time, that the last slot or two was a waste to begin with. I'd already have major items like locket, rede, ardent, etc. So last item is usually stat based rather than utility.
HaIlMonitor1 votesMeh, I am all for it tbh. If build paths are more set they can balance classes more effectively.
Like take duskblade if only AD assassins could build it (instead of the dumb adc's that get it nerfed)
Outside of core items though they should kind of do whatever.
SEKAI3 votesMeh, I am all for it tbh. If build paths are more set they can balance classes more effectively.
Like take duskblade if only AD assassins could build it (instead of the dumb adc's that get it nerfed)
- If a AD assassins is weak/oppressive they can nerf them
- if the whole class is weak/oppressive they can buff or nerf them.
Outside of core items though they should kind of do whatever.
If itemisation is supposed to be that rigid, and all major core items class-bound, then it's better off to simply get rid of items entirely. That way all classes becomes VASTLY easier to balance and have better clarity.
But ofc, League set itself up to be a game with items, and therefore it should at least try to have some diversity when it comes to build paths of your toon.
Typically, class-bound items only occurs in more extreme cases. Or so I hope.
HaIlMonitor1 votesTypically, class-bound items only occurs in more extreme cases. Or so I hope.
All I will say is, how often are items buffed for a specific group of Champions, and then nerfed because someone else abuses it?
Duskblade, Bork, Black cleaver are the more recent ones. Hell even support items are being changed because every lane is abusing them right now...
SEKAI2 votesAll I will say is, how often are items buffed for a specific group of Champions, and then nerfed because someone else abuses it?
Duskblade, Bork, Black cleaver are the more recent ones. Hell even support items are being changed because every lane is abusing them right now...
I think things like Duskblade should definitively be labelled a "extreme case" like what happened to Tiamat items.
However I wouldn't advocate adding the list beyond absolute necessary.
But that's me.
IBgarbo2 votesThat's my problem with the change and what riot is doing with it. Supports don't need basically an 800 gold paycheck for no reason. It is a low income role and that's the way it has been forever. This is the reason roaming on supports is so efficient because you don't lose out on farming like your jungler does for similar ganks. It is dumbing down the role and Riot is trying to make it appeal to more players by making it higher income, and they have been doing this consistently for the past year or so. It's pointless, unnecessary, and ruining the entire support identity.
ChaddyFantome3 votesThe point they were making is right now if you want wards, scanner, and gold you have to have all 2 in item slots, one in trinket. Now you use one less item spot and virtually less gold so they can do stuff like rush ardent faster, or go right into tank items with out sacrificing themselves a bunch.
No, because these 
exist if i wanted the extra slot.
All this chabge does is take away the option of the active version and take away our quest buffs.
The only people this benefits are the autofilled supports that play mage botlane and rush damage.
Clint Orris1 votesDoesn't the sightstone changes come at the expense of
OMG they said they were gonna make new items with the passive. Holy shit are you ppl that fucking ignorant.
SEKAI6 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-13T14:50:52.164+0000)
OMG they said they were gonna make new items with the passive. Holy shit are you ppl that fucking ignorant.
That was phrased as a question for a reason.
Clint Orris1 votesThat was phrased as a question for a reason.
Well then why are you commenting without doing your research first. It’s pretty common knowledge
SEKAI3 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T15:18:18.266+0000)
Well then why are you commenting without doing your research first. It’s pretty common knowledge
If everybody can only talk if they are already absolutely correct, you'd be surprised on quiet the world would become.
I phrased the thing as a mere simple question. The point of discussion and conversation is to you know, engage in a discussion where ideas are exchanged, which hopefully steers towards a more informed and correct direction. It does not require people to already know what they will be talking about to talk, it only requires people to not act like an ass (especially when they aren't sure whether or not they're right), which was not what I have been doing but rather it's you instead.
All of this junk hostility you've been throwing out for some time already is simply not needed.
Friendly Ram1 votesno they are deleting FOTM and ruby sightstone.
ChaddyFantome2 votesDoesn't the sightstone changes come at the expense of
On top of killing off the support quest buffs.
IBgarbo5 votesUmm no. Some matchups you want sightstone early sometimes you don't. Against old evelynn for example you waited off on buying sightstone until like 10 or 15 minutes because until then you couldn't get deep wards in their jungle without jungler coming with you since no lanes have any pressure. Now it dictates when you can/can't have it and it makes every game so similar, supports will rush the same item every single game. Also now you can't punish bad back timings as badly since I assume they're automatically given sightstone once they finish the quest.
It's stupid, unnecessary, and dumbs down the role.
Not to mention now mage supports are going to be more common since they get a free sightstone and can build damage.
Clint Orris2 votesUmm no. Some matchups you want sightstone early sometimes you don't. Against old evelynn for example you waited off on buying sightstone until like 10 or 15 minutes because until then you couldn't get deep wards in their jungle without jungler coming with you since no lanes have any pressure. Now it dictates when you can/can't have it and it makes every game so similar, supports will rush the same item every single game. Also now you can't punish bad back timings as badly since I assume they're automatically given sightstone once they finish the quest.
It's stupid, unnecessary, and dumbs down the role.
Not to mention now mage supports are going to be more common since they get a free sightstone and can build damage.
They are not dumbing down supporting. They’re actually giving you options to do other things. EVERY support has to get Sightstone anyway so why not included in our builds?
SEKAI3 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-13T15:33:40.503+0000)
They are not dumbing down supporting. They’re actually giving you options to do other things. EVERY support has to get Sightstone anyway so why not included in our builds?
You can support without sightstone, actually. Been doing that for quite a while.
The trick is to deny enemy vision with red trinket (it can also be used to scan incoming ganks in certain parts of the map, too), while using things like the 's active, probe plant, rift scuttler, and moving a control ward around the map's crucial chock-points to get a solid guess of enemy positions.
Sightstone give better assurance but it hasn't been a compulsory for me.
IBgarbo4 votesyou're also silver 5 with a 37% winrate so I'm unsure just how well it's been working.
SEKAI2 votesyou're also silver 5 with a 37% winrate so I'm unsure just how well it's been working.
I am mostly a Normal Draft player.
I have only spent 48 games (I briefly counted) in Ranked in Season 7. Out of these 48 games, the vast majority of the matches were played in the first half of the year I think. Not to mention, yeah I was also that guy, who was testing champs in Ranked.
Out of these pitiful amount of 48 matches, only 10 of them where I even played as support (hence I only have a sample size of 10 matches that is even relevant to the argument here you've put out). And out of the 3 support champs I had played in Ranked in Season 7, my Soraka was the most played at 6 matches. My Soraka was sitting on 4.55:1 kda ratio, with a 67% win rate. I typically build Talisman of Ascension on Soraka.
It also has 0 record of my glorious support Brand where I had dedicated a good time of it in Normal Draft (I think I did play him some time in Ranked before, but maybe only Normal Draft), earning an also kda of 4 something last time I checked. I build Frost Queen's Claim whenever I go supp Brand.
Obivously, it's working out, one some extent or the other.
But alas, completely out of context and ad-hominem attack. How typical.
Silver5 is right, whatever, but I will not accept you just throwing out the 37% win rate like it means something without even the slightest bit of care about where it even comes from as well as how much of it is even relevant to the topic at hand.
Lios Ashenblade1 votesZombie ward helps a ton too, Ive been debating on skipping the sight stone, and with certain supports like 
I do
ChaddyFantome1 votes[{quoted}](name=Clint Orris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xKYuY2o2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T14:37:36.003+0000)
Item path diversity?! Wtf lol Sightstone actually limited item path diversity. Now you ALWAYS have the option.
Now you have no option because there is no actual alternatuve option.
Currently, u dont have to buy sightstone immediately at all.
Legacy Hydralpha6 votesI definitely think Riot needs to make a change to how vision works to make support a more fun role, but I'm not sure this is the right way of doing so.
sycara3 votesBecause it ruins a lot of playstyles Supports have been picking up.
And by the way
It’s 800 - 1600 gold that you don’t have to spend anymore AND a free item slot.
is not close to being true. You see, the new Tier 3 Support items are 1500/1800/1900. That's -100/+200/+300 compared to 
, as well as only 400 less than . And they're nerfed versions of those as you don't get the quest reward anymore.
And a free Item slot? Complete nonsense. You'd already have had a "free" item slot if you were to choose to go with the Eye of <> Tier 3 item. Or you could go with and fill that "free" item slot with a convenient Active item .
Śhunpo2 votesItem diversity aside, this makes bot lane even more potent and will likely result in one sided games becoming even more one sided because you can't actually consistently keep up in the vision game since if one of the bot lanes gets ahead that support has more access to vision since their ADC will either clear waves faster for more coins to pop up, allow the support to proc Relic safely or allow the support to poke the opposing bot laners for gold.
Say hello to the 4-5 man bot lane gank meta for a few patches, even moreso than what happens now.
NekoniClaws2 votes'Cuz it's costing us our active items. 'Cuz I won't get to chose to get an early sightstone (preboots) or a late sightstone (tier 2 + CDR, cloth armor/ dark seal first). Removing the tier 3 gold items also cuts support active item pool by around half. Choice is down all around.
Also you know who benefits most from extra gold? AP supports. They're also the hardest to keep out of botlane because they're mostly just midlaners. So I fully expect a gold-income reducation after this gold is 'freed up' to nerf them. If you don't expect that kind of nerf I'm sure it sounds fine.
Kubox1 votesBecause people don't know how to read and/or research.
Pretty much all of everyone's worries has been addressed by Riot.
This is not to say the decision doesn't come with risks. Sadly, I've seen very few people talking about them. Notably, the fact that with 800 more gold in their pocket, supports are going to be able to get better at their job, be it damage, peeling or killing, much faster. Heck, this might even means kill lanes might come back too. With how volatile bot lane currently is, this change can only make it worst (or, with a bit of luck, help keep adcs in check by making them the weaker bot lane partner until they scale).
sIsTeR kWiStY1 votesim a support and im so sad about the sightstone changes. i love sightstone ;-;-;