Can we make the Dragons more interactive?

Clint Orris··116 votes·10,730 views

It kinda just seeing them do the same attack. It would be nice to see them actually fly around the little dragon pit, switch up their attack and maybe have a super move?

  • I would love to see the fire dragon fly and sit on a cliff and let out a a continuous breath of fire(kinda like you the poro king).
  • I would like to see the Air Drake create tornadoes that spin enemies around.
  • Have the Earth drake fly up and slam back down creating tremors that knocks up enemies.
  • The water dragon would make whirlpools that slow the enemy

102 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar78 votes

I actually love the sounds of these ideas - it would add a certain spice to the encounter that certainly doesn't exist atm. Sadly when we did the elemental drakes, one of the problems we ran into was memory usage. Because League has to be able to run on relatively low spec machines, we have a limit on how much memory we can use for an individual game of League because your computer has to load in all of the assets that will be in the game (this is what's happening during the load screen after people have chosen their models/skins). Adding unique animations, particles, audio etc, would make elemental dragons considerably more "expensive" from a performance perspective, and would mean older machines would likely have a harder time running the game.

We might have more room now in the game than we did back then to add some more stuff like this, but we usually default to keep memory usage as low as possible rather than hit our cap so that as many players can enjoy League as possible. It's a really cool idea though! I hope we're able to do something like it some day.

TheDangerousTaco1 votes

speaking of memory usage. Is this why after preseason dropped, I started experiencing fps drops? cause there were a lot more assets added to the game?

RiotRiot MapleNectar23 votes

We actually had to do a bunch of optimization just before preseason launched to get us below that memory cap I referenced before. We managed to do so, but there were/are some other odd dangly bits that were causing the drops. A teams been tackling them and I believe they've got most of them, but probably still a few more to hammer out.

TheDangerousTaco4 votes

ok, thanks. that makes a lot of sense

XxDRAGONsAK47xX6 votes

WELL THAT MAKES SENSE!

and here I was thinking my computer's time was coming to an end soon

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Well, it's entirely likely that's also true. If you're starting to have issues, it's likely it's starting to reach its end (either lifespan of the hardware or relevancy of it).

I would start looking into a new computer. Or replacing some parts.

PaladinNO3 votes

What sort of memory cap? Could I / we get some geeky technical bits, please, as I really am ( Irelia m) interested.

But it is odd...with 32 GB RAM, a GTX 1080, dedicated SSDs and a i7 3770K (aging, I'll admit), having the odd lagspike/FPS drop both upon death and with certain abilties being cast on-screen doesn't make any sense to me.

Especially as the spikes all but went away when I OCed from stock 3,50 GHz to 4,30 GHz and did some tests, all within the same patch cycle. And such apparent CPU demands didn't add up at all with a Wrenchman's complete assurances of this game not being particularly CPU demanding.

Electro5228 votes

Interesting.

In that case, how about a single "super" attack that all of the dragons share, but they all give off slightly different effects?

Take the Mountain Drake example. Each drake flies up, then slams back down, but when they do, it creates a different effect based on which drake it is.

Mountain knocks people up. Infernal sends out a firery "shockwave" that sets people on fire. Ocean sends out something similar to a Nami ult that slows people (could even do something like getting a stronger slow based on how far away you are from the Ocean Drake) Cloud gets the initial "knockback" that all Drakes have when you start fighting them.

And then Elder........um........maybe have the effects of each drake you killed? And depending on how many you have killed, the more damage that attack will do to you.

This should reduce memory consumption by quite a bit, right?

RiotRiot MapleNectar18 votes

Interesting - by super attack do you mean when you first agro the camp? Or do you mean at a certain time during the encounter?

I could see us likely being able to do something with the first agro on the camp, only problem is that people usually tap the dragon, then back out to avoid the knockback. Giving them all the same attack animation - so this super attack, and only changing the actually debuffs/effects/particles would certainly help for memory, we'd have to investigate to see how much though.

SAIZOxRYOMA5 votes

that would work really well. substitute the knockback for something else: infernal drake - damage ocean drake - slow mountain drake - knock up air drake - vacuum effect this would make cool gameplay scenarios similar to the jungle plants. to name one, imagine chasing down an enemy with low health. they blast cone over to the dragon pit to try to lose you. instead of burning your flash, you throw something at infernal drake and it blasts your target with fire and finishes the job for you. with the four replacements i suggested, the dragon pit would become an actual dragon den that strikes fear into low level adventurers.

ModThe Djinn13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vGpkzdql,comment-id=000f00010001,timestamp=2018-01-22T05:27:43.802+0000)

Interesting - by super attack do you mean when you first agro the camp? Or do you mean at a certain time during the encounter?

I could see us likely being able to do something with the first agro on the camp, only problem is that people usually tap the dragon, then back out to avoid the knockback. Giving them all the same attack animation - so this super attack, and only changing the actually debuffs/effects/particles would certainly help for memory, we'd have to investigate to see how much though.

First Aggro doesn't seem super interesting, but a large AoE that triggers at, say, 66% and 33% might be interesting, or a breath weapon (same particles, different colors -- perhaps just a Cho'Gath like spread in White/Orange/Blue/Brown) might be interesting. Bonus points if it swings in an interesting pattern, such as selecting the closest target and swinging to pivot them while firing in a line past them. That way you get a fight that you have to occasionally dance in and out of, as well as some considerations of who is standing where and moving in which direction.

Kanzler1 votes

Depending if this is an issue or not, having the super attack occur at nx points (n being the multiplier, x being seconds) during the encounter would serve as a soft enrage.

This makes early dragons harder to solo/sneak by the lone jungler. Ideally it would be more of a team effort to take.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

I'm thinking maybe halfway through the encounter, or at some point after the initial knockback. A thing to spice it up after it starts.

TooSerious1 votes

A few ideas that could fit the criteria of same animation and just changing effects and particles could be something like:

Extra Ability w/ same animation (probably something like a cone range or maybe a full 180 degrees in front of the dragon): Cloud: Knock back, maybe summon twisters like some camps in HotS? Infernal: Set area on fire with DoT damage (similar to Red Buff) and maybe a sunfire effect? Ocean: AoE Slow, ability like Nami ebb and flow or bubble? Mountain: Knock up (look like a Taliyah skill if you can reuse assets to reduce costs and/or maybe a randuin's effect? Elder: Rotates between all other 4 effects (maybe in the order they spawned?)

What I had in mind was all dragons having the same wind-up animation for their abilities and the same area of effect if it helps with memory consumption. If you'd rather keep it simple we could also explore changing the initial first agro skill.

Keeping the pit wide first agro attack: Cloud: Knock back (how it is), maybe periodic? Infernal: AoE fire skill with initial damage (like a item 3077 ) around the dragon and burning damage (like item 3068 that's pit wide Ocean: AoE slow that covers the pit Mountain: Slower attack speed inside the pit? Explained by tremors in the pit? Elder: Periodically switch between the other 4 abilities or something huge like instead of the skill only on the first agro, it triggers periodically around the elder dragon as long as they're alive?

With these ability changes in mind rewards for each dragon may have to change depending on how difficult they would make the fight to actually make the trouble worth it. If the listed skills were considered they would definitely need to be close to some kind of skill shot that could be dodged if soloing but difficult if being collapsed on in order to keep the rewards the same. Also reference to champion abilities and items for the sake of saving costs of coding, asset creation, memory consumtion, etc.

Let me know what you think! Id love some feed back and to possibly pass a few more iterations your way.

Azteryz1 votes

i can see there being a rage meter under dragon health that slowly fills up when its in combat

the more it gets hit the angrier it gets and when the bar gets full it does a big aoe attack that hits a large area in the river

this would make dragon teamfights interactive and give a sense of urgency to kill dragon

DianaIsMyWife

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vGpkzdql,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-01-22T03:46:30.532+0000)

I actually love the sounds of these ideas - it would add a certain spice to the encounter that certainly doesn't exist atm. Sadly when we did the elemental drakes, one of the problems we ran into was memory usage. Because League has to be able to run on relatively low spec machines, we have a limit on how much memory we can use for an individual game of League because your computer has to load in all of the assets that will be in the game (this is what's happening during the load screen after people have chosen their models/skins). Adding unique animations, particles, audio etc, would make elemental dragons considerably more "expensive" from a performance perspective, and would mean older machines would likely have a harder time running the game.

We might have more room now in the game than we did back then to add some more stuff like this, but we usually default to keep memory usage as low as possible rather than hit our cap so that as many players can enjoy League as possible. It's a really cool idea though! I hope we're able to do something like it some day.

You mean keep your customers buying by sucreficing Game quality and improvments

Thats all hear

hoyohai41 votes

How would you feel if you had an old computer that barely ran League, and then Riot updated the drakes and all of a sudden you couldn't play league anymore

Papa Andrei1 votes

Go play other modes :p.

Maybe one day we can expect dragon moves once tech comes along to help utilize memory and storage better.

MigYalle19 votes

Go play other modes other than the MAIN mode(s) of the game? Yeah right. I used to have a terrible computer, I know what it's like to play on a 8-16 FPS computer, Not fun.

AetherArising2 votes

As someone who upgraded their PC to be finally above the average budget PC, before i could afford that i'd get a bug every couple matches that dropped me to 4 FPS or lower, which is pretty much a slideshow that you cant even win as right-click only shit like Master Yi on.

I have to agree with Hoyo here. Those days are long past for me now, but i wouldn't wish that choppy shit on anybody but my worst enemies.

(PS: Back then, it seemed to be correlated with the Herald and Dragon's spawning/death/etc that i got softlocked

BigfootNamedYeti6 votes

Or when you've seen every individual frame of akalis ult

DianaIsMyWife1 votes

{quoted}

How would you feel if you had an old computer that barely ran League, and then Riot updated the drakes and all of a sudden you couldn't play league anymore

Go buy a new pc laptop There are great laptops for 700-900$ anyone can afford that

PaladinNO4 votes

Or even a second-hand desktop that would blow said laptop away.

Contrary to popular belief, desktops still are better value than laptops.

DianaIsMyWife1 votes

{quoted}

Or even a second-hand desktop that would blow said laptop away.

Contrary to popular belief, desktops still are better value than laptops.

Depends on the case I have a laptop and i can play anything

PaladinNO2 votes

700-900$

What I meant was you'll get better performance from a desktop than a laptop for the same money.

"And I have a desktop and I can play anything too."

CHODES AND LOADS2 votes

sorry if some people might have to upgrade from windows 95 to widows 98, or spend 80$ on a pc thats only 15 years old instead of 25 years old but if thats the sacrifice to increase game fidelity and quality, i think its worth it.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Problem is: Even running modern OSs, with computers less than 8 years old, you can still run into issues once in a while.

AetherArising1 votes

Frequently*

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

I wouldn't say frequently. My brother's using my old MacBook Pro from...2011, I believe. He only has issues on an occasional basis. And those issues are generally related to ping, rather than FPS.

AetherArising1 votes

Ping isn't the computer's problem. Also, the macbook pro may be an apple device but it's by no means a shitty 10 year old PC like an acer aspire 1430 or whatever

Ping directly corresponds to the internet connection, not the device. You can have an absolute BEAST gaming laptop, but if you go up to the mountains where wifi is shit, you'll have 5000 ping.

Attticus Finch1 votes

I would feel like it's time to upgrade my PC. Upgrading your PC every few years is a part of the PC gaming life.

Per your logic, why do we have any graphics progression at all? How come every PC game that's ever been created isn't limited so that those poor gamers still using DOS machines in 2018 can still play them?

Teridax681 votes

Approximately what percent of a match's asset memory usage do the current elemental drakes require, and would you consider that amount justified relative to alternatives? As much as I love the potential in elemental drakes having unique fighting styles based on their affinity, currently their differences are so minute they're sometimes difficult to notice (Ocean Drake's slow can be felt, but Cloud and Infernal Drake are only differentiated by their AD/AS values), and from this post, their individual memory usage is disproportionately high compared to that kind of diversity. If you could go back, would you do them differently?

RiotRiot MapleNectar14 votes

Can't recall how large they were off hand tbh. We ended up making them as similar as possible (same model just with different textures) and recolored particles for their auto attacks because it was roughly as much as we felt responsible adding in. If we were to go back I'd say that it would have been great to have started the project long before it needed to ship to get the chance to optimise the dragons themselves, but also the game in order to get us the room we needed to make them cooler. When we were working on them it ended up coming pretty down to the wire, so the focus was almost entirely getting them down under budget as opposed to making the encounters as cool as possible. Alas the pitfalls of game development :\

Teridax683 votes

That's fair, games and game features rarely turn out perfect when it comes to implementing them in practice, and looking back at what could've been done differently. From what I understand, the roster updates were also particularly intense, given the sheer number of features and systems being changed at once over a relatively short development period. With that in mind, are there plans to work on the drakes in the near future? If the main problem is memory usage, how costly would it be to, say, recycle their animation where they take flight/push everyone back, incorporate that as an AoE and attach some element-related proc? Currently, the drakes have two combat moves, namely their AoE knockback and their basic attack, but the first one is generally only applied once in the entire fight: would there be value in making it more present if it could offer more potential for differentiation and variety in fighting the drakes?

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

Could be something simpler, like how "bulky" and "heavy" Herald's animations work, dragons could use some of that.

I like how weak spots work in LOL PVE, sadly just Herald until now, dragons could have one as well and each dragon could have a different one.


#QOL DRAGON IDEA OUT OF MY HEAD JUST NOW THAT CAN AND SHOULD BE REFINED:

  • FIRE DRAKE: BREATHS FIRE IN A CONE IN FRONT OF HIM PERIODICALLY DEALING BURN DAMAGE AND APPLYING GW ON TARGETS, ALSO FIRE DRAKE HAS AN AOE BURN LIKE SUNFIRE CAPE DEALING MAGICAL DAMAGE TO ANY TARGET IN MELEE RANGE.

WHEN UNDER 50% HP A WEAK SPOT APPEAR IN HIS THROAT WHEN USING HIS FIRE BREATH, MELEE ATTACK EXPLODE THE WEAK SPOT DEALING 10% OF DRAKE'S MAX HP, CANCELLING THE BREATH ATTACK AND STUNNING IT FOR 2 SECONDS. (BREATH ATTACKS DO NOT OCCUR AFTER PROC THE SPOT FOR THE FIRST TIME.)


  • AIR DRAKE: EVERY 10 SECONDS IT CAST A WIND BLAST FOR 1 SECOND ON THE PIT, KNOCKING TARGETS AWAY(SIMILAR TO THE SPAWNING MECHANIC THEY CURRENTLY HAVE), TARGETS THAT STRUCK THE WALL ARE STUNNED FOR 0.5 SECONDS, AFTER THIS ACTION IT CREATES A STORM SHIELD AROUND ITSELF REDUCING 50% OF THE DAMAGE FROM PROJECTILES FOR 4 SECONDS.

WHEN UNDER 50% HP A WEAK SPOT APPEAR IN HER WINGS WHEN CASTING THE WIND BLAST, PROJECTILES EXPLODE THE WEAK SPOT DEALING 10% OF HER MAX HP, CANCELLING THE CHANNELING AND STUNNING HER FOR 2 SECONDS. (WIND BLAST DO NOT OCCUR AFTER PROC THE SPOT FOR THE FIRST TIME.)


  • EARTH DRAKE: PERIODICALLY SLAMS HIS TAIL ON THE GROUND CREATING TREMORS THAT SLOWS TARGETS NEAR AND BEHIND THE PIT, ALSO GROUNDING THEM. AFTER SLAMMING HIS TAIL IT GAINS A ROCKY SHIELD THAT RETURNS 10% MELEE PHYSICAL DAMAGE BACK TO THE ATTACKER AND GRANTING HIM A SHIELD EQUIVALENT OF 10% OF HIS CURRENTLY HEALTH.

WHEN UNDER 50% HP A WEAK SPOT APPEAR ON HIS TAIL, DEALING MELEE DAMAGE EXPLODE THE WEAK SPOT SHATTERING HIS ROCK SOLID SCALES, REDUCING HIS ARMOR TO 0 AND DEALING 10% OF HIS MAX HP AS TRUE DAMAGE. (TAIL SLAM DO NOT OCCUR AFTER PROC THE SPOT FOR THE FIRST TIME.)


  • WATER DRAKE: CHANNEL FOR 2 SECONDS A STORM INSIDE THE PIT AND IN FRONT OF THE PIT, WHILE THE STORM, IS ACTIVE HEALS HER FOR 1% OF IT'S MAX HP EVERY SECOND, FOR 10 SECOND DURATION WITH 20 SECONDS COOLDOWN. CHAMPIONS AFFECTED BY THE STORM HAVE THEIR MOVEMENT AND ATTACK SPEED SLOWED FOR 30%.

WHEN UNDER 50% HP A WEAK SPOT APPEAR ON HER BACK WHILE CASTING THE STORM, MAGICAL ABILITIES EXPLODES THE MARK DEALING 10% OF HER MAX HP, DECREASING HER MR TO 0 WHILE INCREASING DAMAGE TAKEN BY MAGICAL SOURCES BY 25%. (STORMS DO NOT OCCUR AFTER PROC THE SPOT FOR THE FIRST TIME.)

MrPhamtom1 votes

This is how exactly Rioters should post

acknowledge feedback accept criticism admit problems

Christ Superstar1 votes

Correct me, if I'm wrong - but isn't that VERY solvable with lowest settings (even an extra toggle if needed), to have just about no particles, audio and animations, and instead only have i.e. ground indicators and the like?

Always felt dragons and baron are so very boring, when they could be a small minigame objective in itself, even if easily soloable.

Ginger9762 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vGpkzdql,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-01-22T03:46:30.532+0000)

I actually love the sounds of these ideas - it would add a certain spice to the encounter that certainly doesn't exist atm. Sadly when we did the elemental drakes, one of the problems we ran into was memory usage. Because League has to be able to run on relatively low spec machines, we have a limit on how much memory we can use for an individual game of League because your computer has to load in all of the assets that will be in the game (this is what's happening during the load screen after people have chosen their models/skins). Adding unique animations, particles, audio etc, would make elemental dragons considerably more "expensive" from a performance perspective, and would mean older machines would likely have a harder time running the game.

We might have more room now in the game than we did back then to add some more stuff like this, but we usually default to keep memory usage as low as possible rather than hit our cap so that as many players can enjoy League as possible. It's a really cool idea though! I hope we're able to do something like it some day.

Big thumbs up for taking the time to educate us on one of the aspects of game design. I hadn't ever considered memory usage to be a gating factor on this granular of a level.

TehNACHO49 votes

Baron too for that matter.

Rift Herald is more interactive a fight.

Terozu15 votes

Baron is interactive, hes actually way easier to solo if you move around due to his telegraphed attacks and cc, wish it was more so, but w/e.

TehNACHO5 votes

The keyword in this thread is more.

Even as you say, "wish it was more so". Dragons already have some interactivity between DPS or AOE or Tankiness or Slows but they can have more. Baron has some telegraphed attacks and CC but not enough to necessarily demand interaction despite his appearance as a raid boss. The Rift Herald however, especially if you want to solo it, demands interactivity out of the players to take it down the most efficiently. The Dragons and Baron are effectively the Raid Bosses of the Rift ignoring stuff like Nasus or Cho'Gath, but they're underselling right now. Both of us want more.

ModKnightsKemplar14 votes

I think this is a great idea.

Have to watch the balance on this a bit, and I see why it isn't the highest priority for them, but I think this could make the dragon fights a lot more interesting. As TehNACHO pointed out, Herald set the bar kind of high for fight interaction; I almost feel like drag and baron aren't living up to that bar anymore.

I especially love the idea of cc on these monsters. Baron has one only, but that's it. It could make those fights feel much more epic for them to be disabling the big damage dealers and stuff.

xelaker6 votes

HotS kinda does this with it's boss camps on different maps. They all generally fight differently or have some nifty theme.

greekvandaL5 votes

Nah too busy buffing Jinx for such great ideas. Maybe if the Dragon gets a bow with silver bolts tho.

SangreDeNoche2 votes

[{quoted}](name=toxicity creep,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vGpkzdql,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-21T20:40:07.122+0000)

a bow with silver bolts tho.

Star guardian Nashor?

Fairyfleur5 votes

The Vilemaw on TT is a much more interactive, immersive, and tough fight compared to the Baron, and along with it, it's much scarier imo. The Dragons and Baron should be brought to it.

https://i.gyazo.com/1f28eedb163f1a312d435637c4f94f7d.png ######vilemaw concept art.

Doozku3 votes

Vilemaw is my favorite part of that map. He's so big and imposing and cool looking, yet his resemblence to baron makes it instantly recognizable to players what this monster is supposed to be.

Ben SwoIo3 votes
  • I would love to see the fire dragon fly and sit on a cliff and let out a a continuous breath of fire(kinda like you the poro king).
  • I would like to see the Air Drake create tornadoes that spin enemies around.
  • Have the Earth drake fly up and slam back down creating tremors that knocks up enemies.
  • The water dragon would make whirlpools that slow the enemy

I like this a lot. It would make dragon / Baron fights more meaningful and interactive. It would also stop derp junglers from soloing dragons at early levels since more planning and team work would be need to involved.

Karn Bishop3 votes

How about infernal dragon pings the enemy jungler for help when he hits half hp?

DarkAngelMaster2 votes

I think they would need to up the rewards for them to be worth going for if they make more interactive changes to them, but I like your ideas a lot

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