Its either you have, general supports or supports that greatly favor AD carries. Why aren't there any support that raise your AP, give you spell vamp, reduce CD's(past the cap) or some shit lol
OurLestrade30 votesLulu's W used to give AP. Riot went on an anti-stat buff binge a few years back, so people that gave stats like her and Taric got gimped. I think there was an item a long long time ago that gave a CDR aura or something too.
Zone of Endless2 votesLulu's W used to give AP. Riot went on an anti-stat buff binge a few years back, so people that gave stats like her and Taric got gimped. I think there was an item a long long time ago that gave a CDR aura or something too.
i dont think it was cdr aura, but there was mana aura regen. I forgot what it's called but no one build it.
flibitydoo19 votesI remember building
https://i.imgur.com/SxeuCBi.png MANA MANIPULATOR on raka when I was a lot newer because I thought it was the best starting item since it gave you mana regen.
and then later on I would upgrade it to a shard of true ice and never use the active because I was too dumb at the time to figure out how to use or even know what the active even did
Zone of Endless12 votesI remember building
https://i.imgur.com/SxeuCBi.png MANA MANIPULATOR on raka when I was a lot newer because I thought it was the best starting item since it gave you mana regen.
and then later on I would upgrade it to a shard of true ice and never use the active because I was too dumb at the time to figure out how to use and even what the active even did
at least you bought something you were new. I didn't know shop existed.
Spank the Fox5 votesSoul Shroud, Season 2.
Upgraded from Mana Manipulator. Was shit because you only benefited from the CDR if you cast spells while within the aura range. No appreciable effect.
HeresyHorus5 votesRiot went on an anti-stat buff binge
Really ? ... than why :
E gives AD.
W gives AS.
W gives AS.
W gives AS.
gives AS.
All those look like stats to me ...
Mehoyoyminoy9 votesReally ? ... than why :
All those look like stats to me ...
Pretty sure nidalees e gives as.
AlienPrimate8 votesZeke's used to give ad and lifesteal Aegis used to give MR Taric used to give armor, AD, and AP Soraka used to give mana Shen used to give HP regen Galio used to give armor and MR Will of the Ancients used to give spell vamp
That's just what I know off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.
Darksun Dragoon6 votesSoraka heal also used to grant armor
KuroCaliber2 votesAnd q used to reduce enemy mr
LankPants6 votesSona's Q aura also gave both AD and AP at one point.
S0NA2 votes20 AP and AD. Was disgusting in the first One for All. +100 AD and AP if they all Qd.
Ariel the Cruel9 votesRiot did tone down some of the game's stat buffs a while back, but that was large;y unrelated.
Lulu lost the bonus AP and bonus AS on Whimsy Squirrel during their campaign against top lane Lulu. They gave back the AS after admitting they don't know how to "fix" her and it would hopefully encourage bot support over solo top.
EDIT: When you think about it, Lulu's history reflects the class history pretty well.
Abyssphere6 votesI don't remember Riot ever saying anything about not knowing how to "fix" Lulu. They pushed her back into the bot lane because solo lane Lulu wasn't working out and Lulu players wanted their support back.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesWhy didn't they remove Janna's AD on shield as well? ô.o
Smartness Immune2 votesBecause , shes mostly about her E Shield. She`s way too squisy to tank or to be a frontline,
U can`t just nerf a champion without a good reason. She is in a good spot atm , with defined weaknesses. Long cooldowns, with high mana costs. But, u build her with 45% (that is what i do at least), and buy a lot of mana regen items.
Take Lulu for exmaple: Q - Slow / Damage | | | W - AS / Polymorph | | | E - Shield / Damage. She dosen`t have to put herself in danger.
Lulu, can neutralize with her W high priority targets, slow them with her Q , shielding an ally, and in case it`s needed ult an ally for more HP.
Janna. Q - Knockup+damage | | | W - Slow+damage | | | E - Shield+Ad. The damage it`s not even there, so im going just to put that in case some1 will complain about it.
Janna, has to hit her Q , in order to do something , when her Q its only good when it`s half/fully charged. Her W can put her in danger, but also slows an enemy. Only 1, not like lulu slow, that if well placed, can slow up to 2-3 persons, or even more. Shield an ally, and can ult and heal evry1 around her for 3 seconds. Shes vulnerable during that time, if not well placed.
(Tho, Janna it`s getting some changes, so i expect them to be quite good, and make her even more useful.
Chembaron Yamada2 votes[...] She is in a good spot atm [...]
The data says something else, tbh. Having 56% winrate in plat+ and a playrate of 22% are really strong indicators that Janna is too strong currently.
They are making changes to her since she is too safe. Right now, she can stay out of range in bot lane and throw tornados while shielding her ADC frequently. She is able to work in bot lane without giving the enemy the opportunity to punish her in a meaningful way.
The changes are supposed to remove that passive playstyle. They increase the cd of her shield, so staying behind is more punishing for the ADC. On top, power gets shifted to her AA, to encourage her even further to get in range of the enemy to do something. These changes are meant as a net nerf for Janna.
Eeyore7 votesLulu's W used to give AP. Riot went on an anti-stat buff binge a few years back, so people that gave stats like her and Taric got gimped. I think there was an item a long long time ago that gave a CDR aura or something too.
I think Lulu was a special-case because the AP steroid encouraged her to use the ability on herself before using her other spells.
jwebb011317 votescuz the game /meta for since about season 2 ( the bot lane duo meta adc/support ) has been played and til that changes why would you have a support that does this.
im not against it... this is just why it hasnt happen.
and cant just have one support to make this happen... there needs to be a few ... cuz if it was just one... you can just ban that one champ to stop the mage bot lane team comp. maybe in some retooling of supports that favor adcs could bind to a champ ( the champ they are supporting) and based on that champ either its ad or ap that supports abilities enhances that champ
so for example lets take janna ... and ziggs
well as janna you bind to ziggs and your shield that would give bonus ad to ad champs now gives ziggs bonus magic damage on hit or something
just spitballing here ... but you get the idea ?
OyddAWqJ5r6 votesI mean, Lulu used to.
Yosuke Apperu3 votescuz the game /meta for since about season 2 ( the bot lane duo meta adc/support ) has been played and til that changes why would you have a support that does this.
im not against it... this is just why it hasnt happen.
and cant just have one support to make this happen... there needs to be a few ... cuz if it was just one... you can just ban that one champ to stop the mage bot lane team comp. maybe in some retooling of supports that favor adcs could bind to a champ ( the champ they are supporting) and based on that champ either its ad or ap that supports abilities enhances that champ
so for example lets take janna ... and ziggs
well as janna you bind to ziggs and your shield that would give bonus ad to ad champs now gives ziggs bonus magic damage on hit or something
just spitballing here ... but you get the idea ?
It seems like they're literally forcing that meta down everyone's throat though. Nothing else really has a chance.
jwebb01131 votes[{quoted}](name=Yosuke Apperu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNJAQuFv,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-09-25T21:25:43.134+0000)
It seems like they're literally forcing that meta down everyone's throat though. Nothing else really has a chance.
well when they tried to change it with mord bot and ziggs bot people threw a fit and bitched over it instead of learning to adapt
Yosuke Apperu1 voteswell when they tried to change it with mord bot and ziggs bot people threw a fit and bitched over it instead of learning to adapt
It can still work in my experience. Take someone tanky like nautilus and both of you start relic shield and upgrade just to targon's. Very nice sustain for getting poked down and your tanky support gets PLENTY of farm compared to normal. It's really fun because you both have decent gold income
jwebb01131 votes[{quoted}](name=Yosuke Apperu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNJAQuFv,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2017-09-25T22:26:17.438+0000)
It can still work in my experience. Take someone tanky like nautilus and both of you start relic shield and upgrade just to targon's. Very nice sustain for getting poked down and your tanky support gets PLENTY of farm compared to normal. It's really fun because you both have decent gold income
well when relic shield was 1st released i saw panth darius bot lanes,
darius brand
and all kinds of stuff and people cried over it so relic got nerfed , and nerfed multiple of times
Yosuke Apperu1 voteswell when relic shield was 1st released i saw panth darius bot lanes,
darius brand
and all kinds of stuff and people cried over it so relic got nerfed , and nerfed multiple of times
This is true for relic shield, they increased the amount of time that it took for stacks to regenerate considerably. In comparison Targon's Brace wasn't nerfed to the same point and so I feel that upgrading to targon's on duo melee is still completely worth it. You'll both get two stacks back every minute. This means you can use up to four stacks per minute between you and your partner. If a minion is worth 20 gold then that's 80 gold per minute between both of you. This alone would pay for the item in roughly 10 minutes.. plus you get a shield.. and targon's gives you 2 gold per 10 anyways. I just feel like it's a bit underrated to duo targon's that's all lol.
jwebb01131 votes[{quoted}](name=Yosuke Apperu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNJAQuFv,comment-id=000100020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-25T22:41:30.566+0000)
This is true for relic shield, they increased the amount of time that it took for stacks to regenerate considerably. In comparison Targon's Brace wasn't nerfed to the same point and so I feel that upgrading to targon's on duo melee is still completely worth it. You'll both get two stacks back every minute. This means you can use up to four stacks per minute between you and your partner. If a minion is worth 20 gold then that's 80 gold per minute between both of you. This alone would pay for the item in roughly 10 minutes.. plus you get a shield.. and targon's gives you 2 gold per 10 anyways. I just feel like it's a bit underrated to duo targon's that's all lol.
well the problem is ... the carry who is going relic is dumping gold into an item they arent getting back at 100% delaying core items and power spikes. and in the fast game meta we are in it really is viable , and plus its not where the execute passive is only for melees so if you are range you legit have to last hit while having the charge ( see thresh for this issue )
Yosuke Apperu1 voteswell the problem is ... the carry who is going relic is dumping gold into an item they arent getting back at 100% delaying core items and power spikes. and in the fast game meta we are in it really is viable , and plus its not where the execute passive is only for melees so if you are range you legit have to last hit while having the charge ( see thresh for this issue )
I understand your point, I was referring to mordekaiser + nautilus or other tank. Mordekaiser still gets his exp advantage and get's occasional easier last hits + more sustain. Not to mention marksmen have actually started picking up relic shield x.x
jwebb01131 votes[{quoted}](name=Yosuke Apperu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNJAQuFv,comment-id=00010002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-25T22:50:07.763+0000)
I understand your point, I was referring to mordekaiser + nautilus or other tank. Mordekaiser still gets his exp advantage and get's occasional easier last hits + more sustain. Not to mention marksmen have actually started picking up relic shield x.x
if i was gonna start a gold gen item as an adc in lane if i had a relic shield support i would go coin so not only do i get the heal and gold share from the support executing minions i get the passive gold and mana that drops when a minion is killed plus the cdr
just my thoughts
Yosuke Apperu2 votesif i was gonna start a gold gen item as an adc in lane if i had a relic shield support i would go coin so not only do i get the heal and gold share from the support executing minions i get the passive gold and mana that drops when a minion is killed plus the cdr
just my thoughts
I respect them, I was just saying that relic shield is slowly showing up more and more on the adcs.
z63XnLCMwX13 votes
used to restore %mana. Good old days.
jwebb011310 votes
SociopathFriend11 votesTwo big reasons- one small one.
Mages rely on abilities to do their job. So they need levels to get their abilities ASAP. Putting someone else in their lane makes them take longer to get levels. By contrast, ADCs are less reliant on abilities in general, so the double lane where both suffer a lower level makes sense to have an ADC. It should be telling that Mordekaiser specifically was given an experience buff so he could botlane.
Mages at their worst become completely non-interactive for someone who they outrange. This is already a thing where people complain they can't even walk up to CS without the mage bombarding them with magic and 100-0ing them with a combo. Giving them a designated support would make this issue even worse.
If your Support is with the mage, that means the ADC is on their own. Which means your carry is at even higher risk of being jumped and killed- which ultimately will end badly for your team if the game goes on and their ADC gets to farm fine while yours is bullied away from half a wave every time.
DrCyanide3 votesThe "ADC" can be replaced with a mage like Ziggs, preventing them from being alone without being out of hand (regardless of your feeling about it, Ziggs Bot wasn't touched by the balance team). Or the effect could be more useful when grouped as a team, when the ADC, Support, and Mage are behind the Frontline.
There are mana/CDR effects that would synergize with AD Casters as well as Mages, so it's not like such a support would only be able to help the mage either.
Athenes Lulu7 votesI missed the days when my W gave people AP.
Resolution4 votesEvery item in the game/bonus is catered towards AD currently. Most mages actually do more damage with full AD build over AP now. I don't know why but it just seems like the game direction they're going in. I personally miss mana manipulator.
Shablagoo6 votesDont lie plz
Ahris1 votes? Trist has no ad skill except her e and she does extremely well as an adc.
Any ranged champ can realisticly become adc and carry harder as long as they position well.
Sad Chihuahua7 votesShe gains bonus range
She has a powerful AS steroid
E does decent damage and has a 200% bonus AD scaling
Ariel the Cruel3 votesThese claims are still getting bounced around. . ?
HalcyonDweller4 votesWhat would be some good effects to put on these mage supportive kits or items?
Here are a few I could think of:
Add your thoughts and ideas?
MrKiller2 PL5 votesWell...
Any CC would be nice as mages more often than not rely on skill-shots.
Something that would make CSing easier or refund mana so that mages could use spells to waveclear.
Effects that would reward longer trades because botlane is all about sustained damage and mages often rely on quick trades and poke.
It would be great if support could fetch you a blue buff from the other side of the map if you're not lucky enough and get botlane near red buff.
The support could have an ability thac charges up by ally spell casts (kinda like Kassadin's E but only on allies).
But even with all these effects it's still hard to make this champion dedicated for supporting mages. Most of these effects would work similarly whether your ally is a mage or simply an AD caster. I guess you could throw in some Magic Resistance shred but that's a bit cheesy way of forcing a playstyle.
I have to say that it's quite an interesting topic and it deserves some more attention.
Get the up-votes going!
Before I've read this post I hadn't even known that I wanted to have a mage-dedicated support for all those years...
HalcyonDweller2 votesGreat ideas, thanks for contributing! If this doesn't get enough attention we can always create a separate post rather than commenting under this one.
Champion Skin1 votesFree slow on next ability cast. Mana return for damage deal with abilities for a buff's duration. Spell vamp on next spell cast or for duration of a buff. - this one was inspired by the OP.
All these would work with ADC's though after all they also usually have some abilities that deal damage (well most of them do but there are exceptions like Vayne doesn't really have much in the form of ability damage)
HalcyonDweller1 votesOkay, how would you change them or what would you propose instead that could avoid that problem?
Not challenging you, just trying to spark more ideas.
Champion Skin1 votesThe main problem isn't that supports are set up to support ADC's it is more that there aren't as many mages that are worth supporting
Early game the mage might just run out of mana even if the support can set up for the mage and later on in the game ADC's just scale way better as a main damage source (AD X AS X Crit is way more powerful than AP X CDR)
Yes mages can do good burst damage but they usually don't need any supporting for that and after they have unloaded their burst they aren't actually all that valuable to protect
After all there are plenty of supports who just support with CC (which works just as well on the enemy regardless of who the support lane with) and healing/shields which just offer general protection
Non of them give any AD/AS/Crit or gain benefit from their allies auto attacking (though of course any support with a shield/heal can build Ardent Censor which does provide a benefit to auto attackers)
HalcyonDweller1 votesOK, I understand what you've said and I don't disagree with it.
I have to ask, do you think that this isn't a problem and things should remain as they are?
If no, then how would you change things to improve the diversity there?
Champion Skin2 votesWell it is a very difficult problem to address since
ADC's have a baseline with their AA DPS with their abilities being added on top of that
While Mage DPS is all over the place depending on AP scalings, cooldowns (if the ability scales with CDR) and base damages and your main damage carry is going to need to deal some DPS to get through tanks and for killing objectives
(The abilities that doesn't scale with CDR are things like Karthus E, Anivia R and other sustained abilities as these do the same DPS regardless of CDR and there are also DoT's like Cassiopeia Q which gets 100% up time at around 26% CDR and thus won't get any higher max DPS from more CDR)
ADC AA DPS multipliers AD X AS = Max 250% AD as DPS AD X Crit = Max 125% - 175% AD as DPS (base AS is around 0.5 - 0.7 and multiplied by 2.5 with IE crit) AD X AS X Crit = Max 625% AD as DPS
MAGE DPS multipliers AP X CDR = +66.66% increased DPS (AP and base damage) AP X Deathcap = +35% increased DPS (Only from AP) AP X CDR X Deathcap = +125% increased DPS
Total AP DPS multipliers = 2.25 Total AD (AA) DPS multipliers = 6.25
The problem here is giving AP something like crit (or just some way to give them competitive DPS) to enable mages to DPS but not make burst mages get out of control 100-0 everything in sight... well there is one way I guess... the Corki way of making auto attacking mage ADC's
HalcyonDweller1 votesWhat if instead of buffing mages we brought marksmen more in line, made Crit less powerful against squishies, and made marksmen itemization's cost to damage profiles better match those of mage itemization?
Or rework marksmen as a whole in order to better balance their auto-attacks with their abilities?
kurthl33t1 votesPretty sure Soraka's heal also used to provide mana, once upon a stone age.
Champion Skin6 votesNo it wasn't her heal it was her E Which was a point and click damage+silence on enemies and mana restore on allies
