Junglers are buying Knight's Vow, Toplaners are back to…

Ahristocats · 2017-06-22T12:52:57.940Z

https://i.gyazo.com/e6b45b36484c0626d73fedb63292a7dd.png ivern gragas zac with knight's vow shen renekton jarvan blablabla, pratically all bruisers and tanks buying knight's vow now that it's fine Solari got %hp scaling, tanks are buying it, you made bruisers and tanks itemization garbage that they buy support items now https://i.gyazo.com/567fe7f0f031ad7a4900ff5759dfb896.png i'm containing myself right now and trying to write this thread without any kind of frustration or rent, and believe me it's hard imagine yourself playing a bruiser made to kill carries, outfarm and win lane against a ranged cancerous piece of shit champion then get into a teamfight, get chain cc'ed, then unable to kill a freaking ashe who has 3 levels below you? simply because she has 12% damage reduction, 12% damage reduction, a bunch of +healing and shielding of other champion oh, and if it's just throw 30% damage reduction as well, and draintanking. Then, you end up being a living bait for the enemy team you have no choise but to splitpush, attracting 3 people, dying, enemy ranged toplane carry getting 12 kills while you get 9 death and assists, and end up winning because your is able to 2 shots anyone I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU DID IT you actually fucked up the entire game for marksmen's mains forcing us to play around them, dying for them and sacrificing our fun for them and people wonder why i'm playing adc darius, yeah fuck this shit i won't play for other players, i will be the one who gets all those knight's vow healings and shieldings i'm actually wondering if league of lethality was worse than this

PennsJun 22, 201739 votes

Tanks never had much "carry power" tho and bruisers are broken Fiora Kled JarvanIV Riven item 3812

ExecutionerJun 22, 201736 votes

The only way tanks have "carrying power" is if they hit a 3+ man ult. Then your team follows up on that cc, and chains it to kill those 3 people. That is about the only way I can see it.

RalanrJun 22, 201720 votes

That's basically it. Tanks carry by making it easier for the damage champions to do their job.

Dasdi96Jun 22, 20177 votes

{quoted}

That's basically it. Tanks carry by making it easier for the damage champions to do their job.

The thing is nowadays it is so easy for an adc to do their job due to items like item 3812 item 3046

kasfasJun 22, 20179 votes

Which then makes tanks jobs irrelevant, meaning they need to find a new job and that was doing some damage on the cc as well. Now since they do no damage tanks as a class, with a few exceptions, suck. If you want tanks to be the class that helps the team succeed at doing damage then they shouldn't be able to do as much damage, or survive as long without a tank.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 22, 201716 votes

Yeah until you get to elos where people actually main support and have a brain and you notice that as a full AD kled you won't be able to kill an ADC you hit with ult, Q, double E, several AAs and another Q AA passive rotation in small kled form because that janna shielded, healed slowed and knocked everything you can do to her away. I tried it yesterday in a lower elo flex Q game: r. hydra, DD, GA, steraks. Over 300 AD and it's impossible to kill the 2 lvl lower xayah.

ErockandrollJun 22, 201718 votes

{quoted}

This person speaks truth. Bruisers and tanks have lost so much power snd carrying potential ever since the start of s6. Rito basically eants the game to be balanced on adcs being able to kill everything on sight in less than 5 seconds and being able to easily achieve this late game.

I find it Ironic, because the ADC will usually die even faster. Because Riot also makes a point of making ADC's one of the most team dependent roles.

Yet when we have itemization that allows us to build a "Protect the carry" comp, it's suddenly the cancerous thing ever. And I also find it Ironic, that a Tank choosing a more supportive and less greedy item, some how means Tank itemization sucks. And honestly, Tank itemization should mean more than raw stats. Having the best defenses in the world doesn't help the team if they arern't focusing you.

Also in my experience. Diver/skirmishers, really aren't meant to teamfight to begin with. If you picked the likes of Jax or Irelia in the Top lane, My expectation is that you were going for a split push strat, because you needed 2 or more people to stop you. And if your Jungle, your main speciality would be skirmishes and small catches, not large teamfights.

Now if we had that problem playing Sion/Galio/Shen top lane, that might be a different story entirely.

SalsonJun 22, 20178 votes

There is nothing inherently wrong with "Protect the carry" comp.

But currently there is nothing that breaks it. If a comp counters some comps, but doesn't get countered by others it's too strong.

Blackstone01Jun 22, 201712 votes

ADCs shouldn't be getting their own protect the carry items.

JunkοJun 22, 20175 votes

I think they were fine at start of S6, but of course Riot like always, in their infinite wisdom decided to fix something that isn't broken.

ThefrostyvikingJun 22, 20173 votes

Tanks were killing marksmen in a time span of 5 seconds and taking very little damage under it though, i know i played Seju at the time just because of it. And this was with the support protecting the marksman.

"Edited

And i think you exaggerate a bit, marksmen have been given power to kill tanks like Chogath Galio Sejuani Zac in about 15 seconds of nonstop attacking but that has resulted in them tearing anyone squishy to pieces kind quickly.

But those squishy fellows....are they really just lambs that stand there ready to be abused at a moments notice?

Or are they in fact the kind of people that normally instantly kill any other squishy that goes near them Syndra style?.

End of edit

And those changes and buffs happened to marksmen following buffs to others, because riot does indeed want marksmen to be viable.

But it's kinda strange to make such powerful tanks that the marksmen can't hurt at first and then buff marksmen to the point of being able to do so and then ignore everyone else who dies in the crossfire.

Now people playing any of those listed tanks are steamrolling people, any other tank thinks they die too fast.

Assassins are frustrated at not being able to kill the marksmen even if they play well because teams are throwing everything on line to protect the marksman so that they´ll have someone to kill the enemy tank. This and the powerful 4 of Draven Twitch Caitlyn Lucian also melting any attacker doesn't help.

Mages don't have the damage to kill the giant tanks, and die really quickly leaving them sour.

Supports are happy, as long as they get one of those listed marksmen and get them through laning chances are they´ll win.

Juggernauts and divers are sad because marksmen have damage balanced to kill giant tanks which also happens to melt their faces off.

Skirmishers dont really give a flying fk, they are busy farming and pushing toplane.

Marksmen playing the listed ones are happy, their champs and their items are strong and playing well results in winning more often than not.

Any other marksman except Jhin is pretty bad and will get trashed in lane by those stronger ones and then proceed to be useless because they can't kill the big enemy tanks or survive the people diving to kill them.

So in effect, there are 4 really strong and 1 good marksman out there who are dominating since quite a while and the rest are fairly meh.

And it all started with Riot buffing marksmen counters then buffing marksmen and then nerfing marksmen counters x)

Or well, the listed tanks are still kinda strong, Galio and cho are at least really, really hard to kill.

Please don't blame the people playing marksmen for the past seasons because Riot balance teams are smoking strange things at times. We didn't as for anything more than being able to DPS, and that was at the time when tanks and thornmail were so strong that most marksmen killed themselves before they could kill the tank using thornmail.

And don't base examples of fed marksmen either!

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20173 votes

Marksmen can't kill tanks like that in ten seconds. You know why? Because someone was smart and tested it.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yUxYHqH5-how-much-dps-can-a-tank-take-in-a-patchwork-fight

sej twenJun 22, 20172 votes

its funny because in that video when naut had thornmail it took ashe about 10 or 11 secs, then agains that's when she is just standing completely still and facing no threat/cc

AhristocatsJun 22, 201711 votes

and not having her team supporting her? YEAH MY BAD this game is a 1v1

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20171 votes

This is just to show ADCs aren't melting tanks faster than hell. There's no one able to boost their DPS regardless except Lulu.

Cosmic WarperJun 22, 201711 votes

{quoted}

item 3504 Janna zeke's convergence

BacefJun 22, 20176 votes

IIRC Janna's shield gives AD. Right?

kasfasJun 22, 201718 votes

People always get this wrong. It's NOT the marksman's job to kill the tank. It's their job to provide a consistent source of ranged dps for objective taking and threat to everyone in teamfights. It's a bruisers job to kill the tank, and just about everyone, but specifically the tank. Bruisers generally have tank busting abilities In their kits to shred armour or deal % health that really hurts tanks. They can do this because they are melee and have to get up in your face to do this damage.

If riot can get this right and finally decide to stop buffing adcs for a job they weren't meant to do then tanks feel they can do their jobs again too, and we won't have this terrible balance between adcs and tanks. (That's not meant to happen anyway)

And that's not to say that adcs should do no damage to tanks, but that's what they have last whisper and Bork for. If they decide not to build these items and they don't have a bruiser to kill the tank, then they SHOULDNT be able to kill the tank. They should be punished for bad itemization and teamcomp plain and simple. If you don't like it, too bad build wrong and lose. Tanks need to do it, why don't adcs need to?

ThefrostyvikingJun 22, 20173 votes

Brusiers are supposed to handle tanks with built in armor shredd?

What is a bruiser anyway? Use the new classifications so i can get a better idea of which champions you are refeing to or i will just imagine a mix of divers and juggernauts.

And any squishy that goes near a tank these days will instantly get chain CC'ed to oblivion, playing something like a Fiora and getting stunned chainstunned infront of a enemy backline is a death sentence.

No, these days tanks are the first to go in and they will always aim at CC locking enemy carries or just peeling them off their own carries.

Meaning the marksmen are first on the line to have to deal with enemy tanks, because you can't ignore them, there is just no way a fragile marksman can ignore a walking tower of crowd control that promises a stunchain to death if they get in range.

Thus marksmen will focus tanks, and tank will be balanced around that focus and in return marksmen will be balanced around that in return. Which is where we are now.

But for some reason people are calling marksmen OP, despite the fact that say an Ashe for instance needs over 10 seconds of nonstop attacking with over 4 items to drag a tank that is standing still and not fighting back down low.

And nauti isn't nearly as tanky as the currently mainstream big tanks.

Built in armor shred or max health% damage..... which champions that are played still have it? Kayle? Fiora?

Both of them avoid teamfighting religiously and splitpush instead, because they both know that getting CC chained by tanks means instant death from enemy backline.

Nope, the food chain is decided by the tanks and marksmen, followed closely by mages&divers and then the assassins and supports on a shared last spot.

Then we have the oddball splitpushers that play their own game sort of, hard to say exactly where they are found in the league food chain but they are certainly strong 1v1 albeit often lacking when faced with tons of CC.

kasfasJun 22, 20174 votes

Vi, Kled, jarvan, Darius,illaoi, wukong, shyvanna. These are all champs that have built in shred or % hp damage. I forgot to include true damage as well since it's more of a threat to tanks than squishies, so not that includes irelia and camille as well. These champs all have specific ways to kill tanks and should be able to do that. The few fighters that don't have a way to deal with tanks also are a massive nightmare to squishies due to their flat damages, like hecarim.

It also doesn't matter who goes in first, it matters how you position yourself. So if tanks are in first you damage them, but you shouldn't be shredding them simply because you are an adc. And when it comes to Ashe, who slows you massively its only fair that she does less damage than others because of how safely she does that damage. But even 10 seconds it's too short a time due to the likelihood of the other champions also damaging and disrupting the tank on top of that, so those 10 seconds are more like 5 seconds.

ThefrostyvikingJun 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Vi, Kled, jarvan, Darius,illaoi, wukong, shyvanna. These are all champs that have built in shred or % hp damage. I forgot to include true damage as well since it's more of a threat to tanks than squishies, so not that includes irelia and camille as well. These champs all have specific ways to kill tanks and should be able to do that. The few fighters that don't have a way to deal with tanks also are a massive nightmare to squishies due to their flat damages, like hecarim.

Kleds % ability is kinda weak, Irelia deals flat true damage which doesn't really affect tanks a lot and Camilie....is actually scary due to sheen+Q true damage interractions.

Shyv deals no damage at all against tanks, she doesn't build penetration so they can easily ignore her after 2 items.

Who even plays wukong? I haven't seen or heard anything about the champ in ages.

Illaoi i do see, sometimes.

Vi tends to avoid tanks due to lacking the durability to stand near the frontline for so long, otherwise enemy backline melts her.

It also doesn't matter who goes in first, it matters how you position yourself. So if tanks are in first you damage them, but you shouldn't be shredding them simply because you are an adc. And when it comes to Ashe, who slows you massively its only fair that she does less damage than others because of how safely she does that damage. But even 10 seconds it's too short a time due to the likelihood of the other champions also damaging and disrupting the tank on top of that, so those 10 seconds are more like 5 seconds.

Ashe slow is far from impressive, 20% base slow to 54% at lvl 15 if shooting the same target, the slow decays away and needs to be reapplied every second.

Not to mention Ashe rarely gets that far, ever.

And with most champs having gapclosers Ashe even seems less impressive, they can just dash in and stun her leaving her slow about as useful as a glass of water added to a sea. Her slow is rarely worth anything and she is played for her ultimate instead.

And did you even read what i wrote?

I wrote, more than 10 seconds of attacking nonstop with her target tank standing still and not doing anything.

Please do consider just why its kinda silly to call her strong for melting a tank based of that.

kasfasJun 22, 20172 votes

First of all, its not fair to say that ashe only does that much damage when noone is moving around and actually dynamically fighting.

When temafights occur, a lot of champions kite or respond to kiting with dashes, but a consistent 20% slow, that can triple when building crit is fucking massive concidering she almost definetely builds enough crit to have her target slowed by 60% pernanently, and her q which each individually reapply the slow not to mention each individual q arrow applies onhit effects like bork and cleaver. Plus she has her stun and likely has a support peeling for her on TOP of her own massive utility. Remember that supports often take exhaust to deal with divers, and also that they will be peeling for their adc almost exclusively, so her utility becomes even more valuable as after the support has peeled off the enemy they cant escape because of the consistent slows.

And you say more tha 10 seonds, but with the damage progress of the gam right now, that time is unrelaistic, its more along the lines of 7 seconds at maximum with 4 items. At 3 items it may be 10 seconds, but that is the defensive item spike and adcs SHOULD be taking the most time to kill tanks at this point. If they arent then they are op.

So as far as im concerned ashe should do significantly less damage than other adcs because of how rediculous her utility actually is when played right, which isnt true enough right now.

Now when it comes to bruisers, saying shyv, who both has innate % hp damage, and an auto reset that attacks twice both of which apply onhits doesnt deal damage to tanks is just wrong. Vi does fight tanks quite often , and in fact its the whole reaso her w exists at all. Armour shred and % hp damage on squishies means almost nothing. Irelia is a strange champion at least where her true damage doesnt scale at all, but is realistically better at damaging tanks because its true damage. There are also other bruisers who are meant to deal with tanks like gp, mundo, trundle, olaf and many more. So yes it is in fact a bruisers job to kill the tank, not the adc's.

ThefrostyvikingJun 22, 20173 votes

What does a 20% slow matter when someone uses an ability to gapcloser and makes her unable to auto properly?

When fights start when she has 2 items or even less so that she neither slows nor damage?

And no, my example is not unrealistic.

[(https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yUxYHqH5-how-much-dps-can-a-tank-take-in-a-patchwork-fight)]

It's really 10 seconds of ashe just standing still and auto attacking with target doing nothing special.

With malz that would have been done in 5.

And Ashe does a lot less damage than everyone else....except when she uses her Q because that is her lategame steroid. It's the only reason besides her ulti that she is good.

A really, really strong steroid.

And no i am not wrong to say shyv can barely hurt tanks, its the same idea as corki, no penetration means no damage. I know for i mained her for a rather long time.

The only way to succeed was to dive in and kill carries, because shyv isn't tanky enough to soak damage even with a tank build but if she grabs penetration then she dies all too fast.

Thus you go for those without resistance, the carries.

And while Vi does have a good kit for dealing with tanks, has she ever been played for it? Not really i think, she is played when she can ulti in and delete carries with it.

And Irelia's true damage is easily countered by health, she drops like a rock in terms of effectiveness, hers was the original type of true damage as far as i know.

GP is just a lategame hypercarry and is not a bruiser, he is unique and can kill anything fairly easy if he plays it right.

Trundle is right, olaf......usually ignores tanks as far as i know? Mundo is a juggernaut/tank hybrid.

So you´ve mentioned 2 and one of them is played for her ability to kill squishies rather than tanks.

And please stop writing brusier, it was a old deficient system that really made no sense and riot scrapped it. They even went to the effort of making a brand new system and you can at least learn the terminology so that people will know what you are on about :(

kasfasJun 23, 20175 votes

I know the terminology, but in this case it doesn't apply because of the broad range of champions to which I refer. The term "bruiser" actually encompasses almost all of these champions with the exception of Gp, but even he is an oddity among the new subclasses.

And it is factual that true damage is better against tanks than squishies because squishies tend to essentially take true damage anyways because of their lower general resistances. Therefore irelia, Olaf and gp all have tank countering abilities.

Mundo has % hp damage poke which is never bad against tanks, and between shyv and vi both having insane potential damage against tanks I really don't understand what you mean. Sure they may not be played for that, but they sure as hell still have it.

Now let me check that other post before I comment on it.

Alright I checked it.

I don't have a problem with her initial dps. That was fair and manageable even in team fights with all the aoe and crap flying everywhere. My problem is A: when she activated q it just shred through his health at as if it was butter, and B: she is slowing him on top of that damage, meaning if he misses a q he is taking that damage and has no way to escape it.

If she is going to do that much damage, her slow shouldn't be so prominent, and if her slow is 60% then her damage shouldn't be so high.

Mind you this is tame compared to some other adcs and considering her build vs the naut build its understandable how much damage she does, but having a class be able to shred through another so quickly, and safely is not healthy for the game in general. With bruisers at least, they need to be in range for the other person to fight back but adcs don't have this disadvantage.

Aside:

This is another reason why if an adc gets caught out by an assassin they really should t be given an opportunity to react. They should just die due to their general safety when fighting literally every other class. A bruiser should take some time to kill an adc because they tend to have more powerful cc and overall utility.

The point is the job of the adc is to stay safe and damage whatever is closest. Not just to kill the tank and then one shot everything else like everyone seems to think.

Junglers are buying Knight's Vow, Toplaners are back to being a living bait for enemy ADC

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