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Reducing Lee Sin's movement speed by 5 won't do anything to him

HateDaddy··43 votes·3,228 views

This is just a feel good nerf that people want because a stat reduction shows visible reduction in power in terms of stats, and that always has a profound impact even when the reduction is rather insignificant. Are there times where Lee Sin having 5 more MS than most champions leads to a kill he wouldn't otherwise have had? Yes I'm sure but very rarely. That's not even the point, compared to how often he can secure kills with his mobility + flash or any item he builds that grants MS (ghost blade, deadmans), you will see that shows how insignificant 5 MS really is on a champion like Lee.

It wouldn't solve anything that's actually wrong with him either. Let's remember, for all the crying that happens on boards over Lee, he's still one of the most nerfed champions historically so nerfs do happen. But if he continues to get nerfed, if he continues to have shit outright removed form his kit, why does he continue to always resurface as a god tier jungler? Sure, he does receive some buffs but that still doesn't explain how this guy is almost always top tier and the rare times he isn't, he's complete shit. That's his problem in a nutshell. He's so binary, he's so hit or miss and his power is so heavily invested in early game that he's forced to play this ridiculous style that is frustrating to play against and in many occasions, play with.

He's a popular champion and I realize that means Riot will want to avoid any massive changes and honestly, Lee doesn't need massive changes. He just needs power shifts and fine thing after said shifts and he would honestly feel much healthier. But removing 5 Ms won't do shit and it's a lazy way of analyzing if you think removing 5 MS will have this major impact when in reality, it won't.

51 Comments

MuffledGarbage8 votes

I would be fine with a movement speed nerf if they gave him 325ms

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

I would be fine with a movement speed nerf if they gave him 325ms

In return for a compensation buff, Riot would probably allow Lee to steal Barons essence and carry barons ghost around with him and tell us mini games are fun.

invisiblecat11 votes

Idk why people downvoted you This actually made me laugh

XIII Vanitas3 votes

A 5 or 10 movement speed nerf would still have a strong impact early game, because it would make Lee more easily punishable for his bad invades and his misuse of his mobility spells.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=RUCK FICKY,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEYNc7aM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-20T00:15:35.970+0000)

A 5 or 10 movement speed nerf would still have a strong impact early game, because it would make Lee more easily punishable for his bad invades and his misuse of his mobility spells.

It really wouldn't tbh

MohawkBird2 votes

[deleted]

XIII Vanitas3 votes

10 less movement speed early game is a lot. For example, it means you can cover less distance while you're waiting for your Q or W cooldown. It means that certain champions have the possibility to catch up to you.

I'm not saying it's the solution for Lee Sin's problems, but it would certainly have an impact on him.

MohawkBird2 votes

[deleted]

XIII Vanitas1 votes

Uhm, maybe you missed it, but I wrote 10 movement speed in my second comment (because yes, 5 ms nerf would go almost unnoticed on Lee Sin).

GULAG 4 U2 votes

What do you suggest fixing aobut him?

HateDaddy15 votes

{quoted}

What do you suggest fixing aobut him?

I would remove the execute on his Q to reduce his burst but give him a stronger slow and some sort of steroid on his W to give him better sustained damage. I would also probably increase his ults cooldown slightly but give it 100 base damage back. This makes him for focused on sustained damage and less of a burst champion. By accomplishing this, you could give him stronger utility outside of his ult and allow him to scale better. This makes him less oppressive early, less snowball heavy and slightly better late game. This also keeps his core play style in tact minus some of the execute plays and objective steals, which need to be gone anyway because it's complete horeshit how easily Lee can steal objectives (or maybe it's just annoying how nobody thinks to block his Q idk)

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Sounds pretty good.

xelaker4 votes

{quoted}

I would remove the execute on his Q to reduce his burst but give him a stronger slow and some sort of steroid on his W to give him better sustained damage. I would also probably increase his ults cooldown slightly but give it 100 base damage back. This makes him for focused on sustained damage and less of a burst champion. By accomplishing this, you could give him stronger utility outside of his ult and allow him to scale better. This makes him less oppressive early, less snowball heavy and slightly better late game. This also keeps his core play style in tact minus some of the execute plays and objective steals, which need to be gone anyway because it's complete horeshit how easily Lee can steal objectives (or maybe it's just annoying how nobody thinks to block his Q idk)

a sustain damage champ with high mobility and stickyness though...

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

a sustain damage champ with high mobility and stickyness though...

Compared to a burst champion with decent sustained damage and high mobility and stickyness. Look at Lees kit, half of it screams sustained damage (passive and W) while the other half screams burst assassin (q and r). You can easily tone down his burst and keep him reasonable as a sustained damage dealer.

mrgiraffeweevil1 votes

I think lee could swing both ways, but I would like him to be more on the assassin side. He could be a mobile assassin with all the weaknesses the others share, like cc or anti burst things like sheilds

TheSingularity2 votes

If you want an assassin then he loses everything from the ult but the damage (the stun, kock back, ability to hit entire teams with the projectile he creates with said knock back) He has far too much utility to be a pure assassin: vision granting spells, hard CC, shields,. Notice most assassins have 1 cc spell max? And most are slows Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Zed Talon Akali Khazix

Those with hard CC generally kill you whether they use the CC or not or it's unreliable (a skillshot): Ahri Ekko Diana Elise Katarina Rengar Shaco Nocturne

The issue with lee is, he is both sets of champions smashed into one grotesque blind gymnast who flips all over the map shooting out hard CC like it's a basic spell

An Undead brat1 votes

Where's Katarina's? xD

TheSingularity1 votes

She's in the boat of whether they're CC'ed or not (in the first line) they die. I simply couldn't be fucked typing out a separate category for her only

xelaker1 votes

{quoted}

Compared to a burst champion with decent sustained damage and high mobility and stickyness. Look at Lees kit, half of it screams sustained damage (passive and W) while the other half screams burst assassin (q and r). You can easily tone down his burst and keep him reasonable as a sustained damage dealer.

the issue is riot wants a flashy champ and lee is flashy since he can do a little bit of everything i guess. i get where you are coming from though.

TheSingularity2 votes

Volibear Tryndamere Udyr Olaf MasterYi

I'd take that over current lee any day

Ðroxx2 votes

the fact he has a blindfold on without god fist and he can see is a disgrace. Riot needs to make his vision like rek sai's tunnel vision. That would be fair and balanced. They should also make it so the vision is lifted with the purchase of god fist lee sin kappa

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

the fact he has a blindfold on without god fist and he can see is a disgrace. Riot needs to make his vision like rek sai's tunnel vision. That would be fair and balanced. They should also make it so the vision is lifted with the purchase of god fist lee sin kappa

LEE SIN CHAMPION UPDATE:

Lees new screen HUD:

http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/20eb603e-a12c-4d29-943f-6ca7715eaead/ae9dec46-389b-40ed-8597-e8b65d04e351.jpg

Lee Sin's passive, Q, E, W and R have all been removed.

NEW!

Lee Sins passive: Lee cannot see because he is blind, therefore his summoner cannot see and the screen is all black. However, Lee is given a potato that he can throw (800 units) and any ability key can throw a potato. The potato will glow, making the players screen glow red when close to nearby enemy champions, glow blue when far away from them and a variance of the two colors when close or far away respectively. If Lee manages to hit a enemy champion with a hot potato, the game is automatically over and Lee Sins team wins.

What were we thinking? We really like mini games and as children, we remember the sombering experience of hot potato. We debated between a version of this or heads-up-7-up but decided to go with the former since potatoes are really tasty.

Synnx71 votes

I'd suggesti riot going bankrupt for favoring Lee

Mordepool2 votes

With that logic you could give that +5 Movement speed to Mordekaiser.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

With that logic you could give that +5 Movement speed to Mordekaiser.

Give him 10, I'm still gonna walk away from him laughing

I mean hell, by the time it takes Morde to walk from fountain to lane, tibbers has already lapped SR 6 times

Atanchan1 votes

{quoted}

Give him 10, I'm still gonna walk away from him laughing

He'll make it to lane and rotate to dragon far faster, though.

sirwaterfles2 votes

I think its a really good nerf. Finally he wont be able to still get you even if he wasted his 2 gapclosers. And look at simular nerfs in the past on vi or the -5ad that got kayle out of the jugnle. Sure it doesnt sound like a lot but is. It nerfes his clearspeed, mobility and ganking power all by a little bit that will be noticed and hopefully enough.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I think its a really good nerf. Finally he wont be able to still get you even if he wasted his 2 gapclosers. And look at simular nerfs in the past on vi or the -5ad that got kayle out of the jugnle. Sure it doesnt sound like a lot but is. It nerfes his clearspeed, mobility and ganking power all by a little bit that will be noticed and hopefully enough.

Removing AD removes actual power to clear and damage. Removing 5 ms wouldn't solve any of his actual problems and would simply only reduce his chasing power in rare situations. That's such an insignificant change, it honestly isn't worth exploring.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I don't think such a minor change is really meant to "solve" Lee's problems, more meant to alleviate some of his early pressure for the time being.

I am one of those apparently crazy people that doesn't think Lee Sin is "God tier" as many put it. He's strong in many situations, to be sure, but most of his strength is locked behind both Lee's skill and mechanics as well as his enemy's ability to read a situation. You can dodge his Q, you can predict when he's gonna Insec and position accordingly, etc. I think the reason he doesn't always get nerfed is because he offers a lot of opportunities for counterplay, even if they aren't always taken advantage of by every single player, or even always easy. His kit is unique, iconic, fun, skill-based and allows for counter play. That pretty much ticks all the boxes Riot is concerned for, meaning his kit, at it's core, is healthy and good and not getting reworked anytime soon.

Lee could probably do without the Q execute though. It's one thing when it's his ult, a much longer CD, but his Q really ought to be mostly about that Q2 mobility, not to finish the job. If anything, encouraging him to take the Q and put himself in danger more often is probably preferable. But I digress. Overall, I think he at the absolute most needs some minor kit adjustments rather than straight nerfs.

Atanchan2 votes

{quoted}

I don't think such a minor change is really meant to "solve" Lee's problems, more meant to alleviate some of his early pressure for the time being.

This is especially true. 5 MS is not a nerf to his in-fight mobility, which you ( the OP ) seem to be basing this around - rather, it's based around nerfing his macro mobility, reducing his ability to respond to his opponent's ganks and just making him slower at everything overall. He'll get to camps slower, he'll reach the lanes slower, he'll get to drag slower, all of these thing very minor on their own, but add up to a tremendous amount of lost time over the match.

A lot of League players who don't also play DOTA seem to miss this fact - MOBAs are very much games about efficiency and timing, and you can make small advantages in being faster than your opponent into larger and larger advantages. Wasting time in a MOBA is a terrible thing, since you're wasting gold and experience and pressure and all sorts of things that you won't get back.

It's not going to be a major hit, sure. But it's most definitely going to have far more of an impact than you might think. Another -5 MS nerf might be wise, or maybe even adding on a -10 MS, but I'd say this nerf alone is far more impactful than -3 AD.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

5 base MS is actually huge, because it means he can actually be outrun by some mages (like Zyra).

Misticaltom2 votes

Woah woah woah. I won't be going too deep into the Lee Sin talk.

but going from 350 to 345 IS A REALLY BIG DEAL. This makes Lee Sin's walk speed slower or equal to duelists capable of fighting and killing Lee Sin.

Udyr has 345 Speed, Xin Zhao has 345 speed, Volibear has 345 Speed. Poppy, Mundo, Fiora. They've all got 345 Speed. They can now KEEP UP WITH LEE SIN'S BASE MOVEMENT SPEED. That can be HUGE in the early game, a point in which Lee Sin is strong.

Then you've got Trundle, Olaf, Shyvana, Nasus all at 350 Speed able to out run Lee Sin. Lee's got superior mobility through his Kit, able to hop walls back and forth, but he'll need to use it to escape rather than engage. 5 Movement speed is a lot.

Then you got those at 340 like Vi, Garen, Darius, Yorick, Camile.....

LEE SIN BECOMES EASIER TO CATCH, IT TAKES HIM MORE TIME TO PHYSICALLY MOVE FROM 1 LANE TO ANOTHER, LEE SIN TAKES LONGER TO ESCAPE AND LONGER BETWEEN JUNGLE CAMPS AND LONGER TO GET IN POSITION TO GANK.

5 movement speed is a big deal. Just pick up Pantheon and look at how 5 more base movementspeed than the entire cast of Champions(Aside from Yi, who shares this 355 speed) really makes a difference in a gank.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

That's not even the point, compared to how often he can secure kills with his mobility + flash or any item he builds that grants MS (ghost blade, deadmans), you will see that shows how insignificant 5 MS really is on a champion like Lee.

Lee sin don't even build Youmuu atm (lethality is shitty), BC & Maw have a higher value on lee atm.

Are there times where Lee Sin having 5 more MS than most champions leads to a kill he wouldn't otherwise have had?

More often than u think. To begin he shouldn't have this much ms (350), he's the only Diver (most of them 345) to have this much ms and be so mobile. He outrun most of champ, add to this his W (im not for removing his dash ward).

why does he continue to always resurface as a god tier jungler?

  1. games are short
  2. snowball is hit harder than ever
  3. jungle is weaker overall (less xp)

. But removing 5 Ms won't do shit and it's a lazy way of analyzing if you think removing 5 MS will have this major impact when in reality, it won't.

it would, no sure if it'll resolve all but it definitly be impacful (maybe not in very elo).

Fefnil2 votes

You're not thinking this through. When you remove MS you not only hinder his capability to chase or escape, you also weaken his ability to walk through the map, which is a huge thing for a jungler. You lengthen the time Lee takes to walk from a camp to another, which translates into slower jungle clearing, which means less power. By removing 5 MS from 350 you are basically lowering his MS by 1.5%, which may seem like a low amount. But it also means that you are reducing his overall presence in the map by 1.5%. A 30 minutes match equals a 1800 seconds match. By removing that 1.5% MS you are also removing 27 seconds of Lee Sin presence from the game, and in LoL every second matters. That 5 less MS may be the simple difference between a counter gank gone well or not. It may be the difference between a First Blood or not (when two kills in different lanes happen almost consequentially). As you know, every action in LoL has exponential consequences towards the rest of the game.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You're not thinking this through. When you remove MS you not only hinder his capability to chase or escape, you also weaken his ability to walk through the map, which is a huge thing for a jungler. You lengthen the time Lee takes to walk from a camp to another, which translates into slower jungle clearing, which means less power. By removing 5 MS from 350 you are basically lowering his MS by 1.5%, which may seem like a low amount. But it also means that you are reducing his overall presence in the map by 1.5%. A 30 minutes match equals a 1800 seconds match. By removing that 1.5% MS you are also removing 27 seconds of Lee Sin presence from the game, and in LoL every second matters. That 5 less MS may be the simple difference between a counter gank gone well or not. It may be the difference between a First Blood or not (when two kills in different lanes happen almost consequentially). As you know, every action in LoL has exponential consequences towards the rest of the game.

You're overthinking this, it's really not that significant. He Qs to most camps anyway, which saves the already insignificant amount of time you're referencing. Maybe, maybe it makes a difference of 2-3 seconds and that's almost meaningless in the grand scheme. And when you compare this to what he's able to do with his mobility, it's totally meaningless.

Let's put it like this: reduce his speed by 5. Do you really think this will remove him from the top tier list of junglers? If your answer is yes, don't bother replying because that's actually an idiotic response.

SILVER ELO GOD1 votes

Well Lux got -5 MS and you could really feel it and I stopped playing her entirely after that, also her winrate was lower for a while. So I think -5 is pretty significant. It might sound like nothing but it's not. Maybe it has a higher impact on laners than on junglers whe they nerf base stats, but still you can't disregard the change.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=HAVE FUN XDDDDD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEYNc7aM,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2017-04-20T21:43:38.118+0000)

Well Lux got -5 MS and you could really feel it and I stopped playing her entirely after that, also her winrate was lower for a while. So I think -5 is pretty significant. It might sound like nothing but it's not. Maybe it has a higher impact on laners than on junglers whe they nerf base stats, but still you can't disregard the change.

Of course -5 MS on an immobile champion is significant, they have no other means of escape or chasing power. On a champion with mobility galore? 5 ms is nothing. The MS nerf on riven amounted to nothing when they took her MS from 345 to 340 (the windslash projective speed nerf was huge though and was responsible for her winrate drop).

Fefnil1 votes

As I said, those 2-3 seconds may be the difference between getting at a place just in time to save an ally or kill an enemy during a counter gank or not and, as a jungler, this situation happens quite often, maybe not every game, but still often. In the grand scheme this is actually important, because every action, especially in this snowbally season, has great impact on the rest of the game.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

As I said, those 2-3 seconds may be the difference between getting at a place just in time to save an ally or kill an enemy during a counter gank or not and, as a jungler, this situation happens quite often, maybe not every game, but still often. In the grand scheme this is actually important, because every action, especially in this snowbally season, has great impact on the rest of the game.

2-3 seconds is pushing it and even if we assume that's what 5 ms would amount to, a situation in which you were there or not for a gank/countergank isn't solely dependent on your champion. Compare these rare occurances to how his mobility makes plays just by existing, it's easy to see 5 ms on a champion like Lee Sin is insignificant and would do nothing to him. It's why riot has never explored the option of doing this because its a worthless nerf, thus a waste of time

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

E2 used to have an attack speed slow.

If you relied on attack speed, you couldn't really fight him since he would out-burst and out-DPS you.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

And the fact that he gets buffed when he isn't a top pick for two patches all but assures for him to always come back.

Proxy3451 votes

I think the best way to nerf Lee Sin is by lowering the projectile speed of his skills.

SEKAI1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8LSdpvuLrE

LyingOnLine1 votes

Uh, where the hell's this coming from?

Borbland1 votes

Nah he just need his wardjumping removed.

It just removes ever risk aspect of his kit. He doesnt need to hit he jumps to the ward then ults.

Coggles1 votes

Where do you see this? It isn't on the PBE and no Rioter that I can find has mentioned it.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

It would still hurt him a decent bit; MS nerfs to melee champs are particularly brutal. But it definitely wouldn't get people to stop complaining about him.

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