"I hope you like Draven" - Riot Game

D357R0Y3R·Dec 28, 2018·40 votes·16,269 views

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Please don't rework stormrazor into that

79 Comments

invisiblecat1Dec 28, 201853 votes

Why does Riot keep trying to give adc champions burst damage

D357R0Y3RDec 28, 20181 votes

idk, apparently stormrazor was designed to be good on "frontloaded marksmen" (riot's words)

honnestly the IE/phantom dancer changes are good, this shit is terrible on the other hand

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

i prefer the old IE just cause the true damage crit sorta ruined what randuin's omen was meant to deal with, and the phantom dancer change is actually pretty garbage, i mean they took away the magic resist that hexdrinker had that worked well with the shield that proc with it; at the same time they got rid of the benefit that the phantom dancer also carried which was the 12% damage reduction from all damage sources and provided a 7% move speed when an enemy champ is within 550 unit range, the phantom dancer became such a good kiting and dueling item though it was also accessible to all champs which made this a key item to some melee champs (especially yasuo) as well.

LTK KoRoDec 28, 20183 votes

Because ADC mains want to go back into pre 8.11 state, which included busting people with RFC+stattik crits

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

you mean how certain champs were able to exploit RFC to get a larger gap closer or how it synergize with other abilities that gave a longer range and burst, i rather not experience another super man jump from a god damn rengar thank you. (i wish i was joking about that but i remember seeing one without a RFC and one with RFC and i'm more scared of the one with the damn RFC just cause i saw that it can also increase the damn leap range)

LTK KoRoDec 29, 20182 votes

no, i mean Tristana removing half of someones hp from +700 range with RFC+Statikk auto. Rengar jump interaction got quickly fixed, while previous issue got fixed in 8.11

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

tristana at max level is actually around there i think without RFC, with RFC she actually should be over 700 if i remember correctly; but i don't remember them doing a hot fix or a patch to solve the interaction that it had on certain champs.

LTK KoRoDec 29, 20181 votes

i don't know if they fixed it on other outliers, but im 100% sure that Rengar jump range being increased by RFC was patched as a Rengar bug, i can't recall certainly when but it happened

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

you know this sorta thing wouldn't have happened if they had made RFC exclusive only to marksman or range champs which ever anyone prefer to call them.

LTK KoRoDec 29, 20181 votes

They could also make item 3071 and item 3025 exclusive to melees then, Lucian and MF made cleaver lose lots of stats, and Ezreal is keeping IBG weak due to his synergy with it.

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

true, seeing how some marksman are taking items that is meant for tanks or fighters; they could try and create items that seem similar but are unique to certain class type.

i had an idea for a mana-less sheen item that champion who don't have mana can actually get an attribute similar to sheen.

Wizard BlazeDec 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Why does Riot keep trying to give adc champions burst damage

they got boner for them

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

that or they notice of how marksman are being replaced by other champions that could perform a better job then them or doesn't require so much baby sitting.

Chief MayonnaiseDec 28, 201816 votes

Because sustained damage doesn't work. And instead of creating an environment where sustained damage can work, they would rather give everyone burst and call it a day.

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

the issue is that they never gave an item that is just ranged only, its either open to everyone or it provide a stronger attribute when equipped on melee. they never actually provided a substantial line up of items that were only to range or provided more attribute to range champs, there are a lot of items that give more benefit or are exclusive to melee plus there are items that are open to everyone but were made to give marksman a chance only for these items to be used by the very same champs that was suppose to help against them.

ADC YuumiDec 29, 20181 votes

Whatever happened to versatility? I used to play a mean Tanklyn top before Steraks' became melee only.

But nonetheless I think if they make this item... this item; it needs to be locked to ranged only SOLELY because of what could happen if it wasn't.

Do you really wanna see 400 stack Trinity Force Stormrazor Dark Harvest Nasus?

#No, no you don't.

Jericho AzariahDec 30, 20181 votes

true, the issue that riot doesn't seem to realize is that they let their items become too open and not making certain items become exclusive to certain champion groups or try to go further into the idea they had for both viktor and kalista and make exclusive items for each individual champion (with some background story for all items, sorry sorta addicted to lore ever since my time playing dark souls series).

ADC YuumiDec 30, 20181 votes

Yeah, but these items... mostly looking at Sterak's Gage allowed some ADCs to stay alive when they didn't have a shield or heal support.

Adcs keep getting the short end of the lamp I suppose. [sg-soraka]

Jericho AzariahDec 30, 20181 votes

True, but they never diversified the marksman, they never became their own identity.

Caitlyn i felt didn't became the sniper chick i had always viewed her as; she should be carrying long range burst damage rather then a sustain damage style (i mean she is a sniper she is going to be waiting to pick her target off from long range not firing a damn a semi - automatic battle rifle with no care in the world).

Ashe should have played a support role within the marksman group seeing of how she has a lot of utility but not a lot of offensive option at the same time she is the only marksman that can initiate a team fight to get things started(that and her lore show cased her to be more pacifist but will defend self and allies if threaten).

Grave is sorta ok thanks to the rework he had, but i feel like he should become more of a "shock trooper" possessing great firepower and defense but lacking in terms of mobility, basically something akin to a juggernaut but for range.

And Urgot is a like juggernaut but I feel like he should be more of a tank, but that's my personal opinion.

What do you think of these ideas?

SwiftKitten88Dec 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why does Riot keep trying to give adc champions burst damage

idk but hey its still better than the current item 3095 by a hell of a lot

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

i guess, but if they go for the burst variant over the multi-proc, then the assassin champs are going to have a field day just buying this item seeing as assassins are going to be building a lot of raw damage or any champ that place so much focus in their kit that requires a lot of raw damage.

WolfeurDec 29, 20182 votes

Giving a bit of upfront damage is not an issue if the numbers are right.

Jericho AzariahDec 29, 20181 votes

it is when the item it was suppose to go to is being used against them.

HammermancerDec 28, 201827 votes

When crit items rework was released Riot: We want to make sure item 3095 doesn't synergize with item 3147

three months later Riot: item 3147 now grants extra damage to item 3087 if you build item 3095

Yordle XayahDec 29, 20185 votes

{quoted}

When crit items rework was released Riot: We want to make sure doesn't synergize with

three months later Riot: now grants extra damage to if you build

I mean... remember how item 3147 was gonna be the item 3031 / item 3089 for assassins? Then it became the first thing EVERY SINGLE ONE RUSHES EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Duskblade is almost as bad as DFG, except one gets to stay, the other one died.

KFCeytronDec 28, 201815 votes

To be fair, this is a step forward in that the guaranteed front-loaded burst isn't technically a crit, which messed with some "this special effect is okay because it's tied to crit" balancing (like Jhin). It also takes a lot longer to Energize an attack (5-10 seconds or so) than it does to prepare the current Stormrazor (a fraction of a second between attacks).

To be additionally fair, this guaranteed front-loaded burst can be combined with a crit.

To continue to be fair, it looks like it can also be combined with things that can't crit, like Ezreal's Q ~~and GP's Q~~.

TegashDec 28, 20182 votes

Ezreal and GP Q's can crit, actually.

KFCeytronDec 28, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal and GP Q's can crit, actually.

Oh yeah, forgot GP's is special.

Ez's can't, though.

Tin ObliteratesDec 28, 201810 votes

Screams incoherently into a bad headset microphone.

rawiazam1Dec 28, 20182 votes

ayyy das me

Daddy AntsDec 28, 20188 votes

Jhin

Jhin will be the most prominent abuse case with it.

30% of his AD Late game?

He can easily hit 700 AD....

700 x 0.3 = 210

KFCeytronDec 28, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Jhin will be the most prominent abuse case with it.

30% of his AD Late game?

He can easily hit 700 AD....

But at least he's not going to rush one item and then be THE FAST after every front-loaded hit because it's coded as a ~~minion~~ crit. Small victories?

ﬂooDec 28, 20181 votes

I'll miss it :,( (tbh I'd prefer him to be fast than even more damage than what's already ingame. Makes him less of a victim to everything overflowing with mobility)

MorganFreemanBotDec 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I'll miss it :,( (tbh I'd prefer him to be fast than even more damage than what's already ingame. Makes him less of a victim to everything overflowing with mobility)

Jhin's actually one of the most mobile ADCs in the game.

Sure, he can't leap walls like a few of them, but the reliability with which he gets his powerful MS boost makes him extremely effectively at orb walking and kiting. His fixed attack speed (you don't have to micro-manage 2 attacks per second, while moving, to be optimum) rewards this further.

With current iteration Stormrazor, jhin is most definitely the most ADC in the game by leaps and bounds. Again, he cannot jump over walls, but he has a permanent sivir-ulti and can easily outrun any champion with lesser range. You have to COMPLETELY lock him down to kill him, because once he starts running you won't catch up.

CytheGuyDec 28, 20183 votes

"They can try to stop me, but I will keep going."

The Fast is the only ~~acceptable~~ fun Jhin build and no one can change my mind.

Warlord RhinarkDec 28, 20185 votes

Just remove Stormrazor already.

It can't be balanced.

It just can't.

saltranDec 29, 20181 votes

Crit items with StormR as it is now is the most balanced state that crit itemization has been in years, you all will learn how to miss this StormR in a month.

Warlord RhinarkDec 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Crit items with StormR as it is now is the most balanced state that crit itemization has been in years, you all will learn how to miss this StormR in a month.

I beg to differ.

I found Crit pre-8.11 to be much more healthy than what we have going on now.

saltranDec 29, 20181 votes

Really?

It was fun to play for me, I have to admit it, but it was too strong.

Warlord RhinarkDec 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Really?

It was fun to play for me, I have to admit it, but it was too strong.

The only problem I had with it was that Zeal items were so cheap and the fact that Crit itself was still an RNG mechanic (something they still haven't fixed).

Otherwise, it was way more enjoyable, both to place as, and against.

The only time it felt strong was when the late game came around and the ADC had 4 items, which they are fundamentally supposed to be as a class as a whole.

Nowadays ADCs hit their powerspike at 2 items not even 20 minutes into the game, which makes no sense given they are supposed to be carries.

Stormrazor + Rapid Firecannon pseudo-one-shots on champions that are supposed to be late-game sustained DPS is awful.

This is not even going into the new Infinity Edge which now does True Damage.

I'm not saying pre-8.11 was flawless, but the new one is twice as flawed as the old one was.

saltranDec 29, 20181 votes

Okay as someome who has played a lot both itemizations I can say that:

Old itemization didn't went insane at 4 items, it was at 3 since when you had Shiv-RFC-IE you already had everything you needed, the you needed armor pen, lifesteal and etc but the crit power spike was at 3 difenetely.

Crit adcs right now defienetely dont get insane with the two items powerspike of StormR - RFC, seriously, the RFC canon with StormR is a normal RFC crit hit you know that ? It doesn't do more dmg than every single rng crit, StormR on crit adcs it's not a damage creep item, it's a item that creates a guaranted crit, it doesn't add dmg so saying that lategame champs one shot with these 2 items it's just circlejerking.

You overrate current crit build a lot, and the 3 items phase is aswell worse than old items since the true dmg is fucking garbage compared to the extra crit dmg that old IE had.

That's the main issue you have, you think that this crit itemization is good when it's the opposite, this is the weakest point in which crit items have ever been outside the 8.11 -> 8.14 2 months.

Warlord RhinarkDec 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Okay as someome who has played a lot both itemizations I can say that:

Old itemization didn't went insane at 4 items, it was at 3 since when you had Shiv-RFC-IE you already had everything you needed, the you needed armor pen, lifesteal and etc but the crit power spike was at 3 difenetely.

Whether it was 3 items or 4 items isn't important.

The point is still that the ADCs needed items under the belt before they came online, as it should be.

Crit adcs right now defienetely dont get insane with the two items powerspike of StormR - RFC, seriously, the RFC canon with StormR is a normal RFC crit hit you know that ? It doesn't do more dmg than every single rng crit, StormR on crit adcs it's not a damage creep item, it's a item that creates a guaranted crit, it doesn't add dmg so saying that lategame champs one shot with these 2 items it's just circlejerking.

Obvious hyperbole, I didn't mean that they literally one-shot anybody.

The point isn't how much damage it does, the point is giving burst damage to a notoriously DPS-oriented role is wrong.

Besides, the Stormrazor + RFC combo will be a lot stronger if the change in OP's post makes it through.

You overrate current crit build a lot, and the 3 items phase is aswell worse than old items since the true dmg is fucking garbage compared to the extra crit dmg that old IE had.

Sure, the True Damage of now cannot compare to the extra crit damage of old, but at least you could build resistances to tone down some of that damage.

Well, until the ADC decided to build Armor Pen that is, but even then, Last Whisper only granted Bonus Armor Pen.

Look, I'm not saying I liked the Bonus Crit Damage of Old IE much either, but I prefer it over "Double your Crit Chance, 10% True Damage" over here.

That's the main issue you have, you think that this crit itemization is good when it's the opposite, this is the weakest point in which crit items have ever been outside the 8.11 -> 8.14 2 months.

I don't think I've ever said it was good.

I've said they hit their powerspike at 2 items and I've said that it can't be balanced, but I don't think I've ever said "Zomg ADC too broken mus nerf!!!1".

Well, yeah it was a mistake on my part to call it "pseudo-one-shots" but I was trying to get a point across as mentioned earlier.

saltranDec 29, 20181 votes

Wait wait are you saying that it doesn't matter if the power spike was at 3 or 4 items ? That's not how the game works and the change is massive.

They needed items under their belt to come online just as they do now, it's not like ADCs have been reworked to scale less with items and more with lvl.

The thing is that I dont see any burst dmg on StormR when when we speak about crit adcs. It's a normal crit guaranted once you have a Zeal item and before it's a guaranted low dmg crit. How is that upfront burst? Okay I ignore the exaggeation of "they one shot with 2 items" but I do disagree with the message behind it, that you think that adcs deal too much upfront dmg with these two items.

And the best is that both, the StormR ADC and the enemy, knows exactly what dmg will he make with StormR, there's no RNG in that aspect and compared to when adcs used to buy Shiv as first item, THAT was the upfront burst dmg, the old crit itemization in which an aa from an adc with Shiv + BF Sword was roll the dice because he has 30% crit (it was 30 right?) and the difference if it crits or not is massive since Shiv crits aswell.

You can still buy Randuin since the unique passive that reduces crit dmg applies before the true dmg conversion. And dont forget that the "true dmg doesn't have counter" is a myth, HP counters true dmg overall (Laughs in Vayne and Fiora tho)

Old Last Whispers was stronger against tanks and on combination with how IE works against squishies enemies an ADC was able to deal with anyone. Now with IE being better against tanks and Last Whispers against squishies the hole scene looks similar but it's just a simple downgrade from the old itemization.

I say that that crit adcs dont hit a power spike at 2 items now.

I say that this crit itemization is balanced and the only flaw is ER being only for Lucian out of all adcs (+ Sivir lategame).

I say that adcs needed nerfs and were broken, it took time for Riot to make the nerfs fair since at first they went too harsh and I'm glad that the non ADC botlanes are niche as they should be.

Playing with an ADC is the right way to play League of Legends, it has to be balanced, not removed. (Not saying that you want to, it's more just a rant to the air)

Daddy AntsJan 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE9p68on,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-29T12:57:16.542+0000)

Nowadays ADCs hit their powerspike at 2 items not even 20 minutes into the game, which makes no sense given they are supposed to be carries.

Makes perfect sense considering how quick games are right now.

Warlord RhinarkJan 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Makes perfect sense considering how quick games are right now.

The fact that games are as quick as they are now is a problem in of itself.

Daddy AntsJan 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE9p68on,comment-id=0009000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-01T13:19:48.488+0000)

The fact that games are as quick as they are now is a problem in of itself.

Yeah I agree completely.

I miss the 30 - 45 minute games.

Tomoe GozenDec 29, 20185 votes

Riot has just begun their crit iteration and yet the boards are acting as if these changes are going to ship tomorrow? Can we actually provide some counterpoints to specific changes and point out potential problems (unintentional buffs for specific champions) instead of being sarcastic about a specific direction of a specific crit item?

The whole point of these changes are to smooth out Marksmen's mid game and reduce their late game (by allocating their hyper late game budget into their mid game by a certain amount). It's not to curb their damage or nerf them straight out.

BlåbæretDec 29, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE9p68on,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-12-29T00:21:00.449+0000)

Riot has just begun their crit iteration and yet the boards are acting as if these changes are going to ship tomorrow? Can we actually provide some counterpoints to specific changes and point out potential problems (unintentional buffs for specific champions) instead of being sarcastic about a specific direction of a specific crit item?

The whole point of these changes are to smooth out Marksmen's mid game and reduce their late game (by allocating their hyper late game budget into their mid game by a certain amount). It's not to curb their damage or nerf them straight out.

Ah, the typical "it's just pre-season post". Do you guys never get tired?

ADC YuumiDec 28, 20183 votes

Riot. Seriously.

Bring back the crit meta. I mean sure, any ranged champion with a good laning phase could become an ADC at that time but they're AD CARRIES. They do SUSTAINED DAMAGE. Stop trying to make the game all about burst. What was the last sustained damage champion we had, huh? Kai'sa's passive slowly becomes burst.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

At least revert Rageblade if you're going to do this. I mean atleast for once I can play Caitlyn like a sniper with these changes but oh god Draven.