I never wanted a champion rework to fail, but....

Burnt Iron King··137 votes·37,915 views

I sure hope the Mordekaiser rework turns out to be at least as bad as everybody makes it out to be so that Riot will realize they're not gods and won't be able to get away with trying to warp a champion for their meta breaking experiment. That should teach them some humility and may even encourage them to get some community engagement rolling, pinning down a champ's identity before their rework would be a start.

Ghostcrawler's stance on the Morde rework: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/08/red-post-collection-next-champion-not.html

289 Comments

redniwediS36 votes

What would be better for us, to see Riot learn a lesson of humility, or for Riot to succeed and finally start mixing up the bot lane meta?

Personally I'm not into spectacles. I don't slow down to gawk at an accident on the side of the road, and so I would prefer the latter to be the case.

SaltyToplaneGoat71 votes

There are ways of changing botlane meta, but screwing up mordekaiser is not a way to do that...

redniwediS12 votes

Riot has internal data to work off of when deciding whether or not Morde might work for this. Unfortunately we will simply have to wait and see how things go once he hits the live servers.

SaltyToplaneGoat20 votes

They will probably make him stupidly OP numbers wise, so they can say "what you want, REWORK SUCCESS" and short befroe worlds they nerf him again and we will never hear of morder ever again, even less than currently.

I really hope they just admit that they did a bad job on that one and send someone who actually plays Morde to do the rework. There has to be at least ONE passionate morde player at riot, no?

xl Kirito lx8 votes

He's already relatively strong numbers wise, to the point he stat checks, similar to Akali's playstyle. In terms of decision making, he rivals vlad, especially once he has some form of sustain. I respect that people don't want him forced into a specific lane, but from what I've seen, he's encouraged to be bot, but not required. If people want him to be played mid, they'll play him mid. If people want to play him top, they'll play him top.

Looking at the champion in general it's a change, on the same level as Cass's. Cass went from the poison mage into pre-reworked Ryze. Morde's changing from a burst mage into a pseudo-tank. Same level of change, I can see that. Thematically thou, he makes more sense as a soul stealing tank, instead of a 100-0 burst mage. What about morde makes him unique, or defines his playstyle? Gangplanks rework was considered a success since they took the bankplank feel, and added to that.

SaltyToplaneGoat13 votes

I am fine with Morde getting turned into an AD-Bruiser or so... but like this is just some hybrid awkwardness.

Also, we all know soul stealing is his theme... why can he not summon the ghosts of killed minions for super lane pushing? Or jungle monsters? Imaging ganking a lane with Gromp suddenly hopping out of the jungle...

I mean, the dragon pet is nice, BUT WHY STOP THERE? ^^

Also, why I oppose botlane: Mordekaiser is a strong and independed dark overlord who needs no support! That would go against his theme completly!

FlashGuard93 votes

Also, why I oppose botlane: Mordekaiser is a strong and independed dark overlord who needs no support! That would go against his theme completly!

"Misery loves company"

toonpang22 votes

{quoted}

"Misery loves company"

That's a reference to the fact that he can kill an enemy champion and force them to do his bidding.

It's not a request to be crippled and require a crutch ally to have more than 325 movespeed.

Auryiel10 votes

His rework makes him entirely incapable of playing anywhere outside of bot lane, make no mistake.

Luner Hunter2 votes

They botched the sona rework according to EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PBE but they pushed it to live and said "rework success" they did the same with the Cass rework... she's not strong cuz of her kit she's strong cuz of the retarded numbers attacked to her passive and her E... they are botching the Darius rework aswell.. but "rito will be rito and do whatever rito wants cuz it's rito's game" was the jist of what they said about the sona rework and how players disliked it and wanted a rollback to old sona

redniwediS4 votes

These are the kind of absolute statements that keep any real discussion from happening between Riot and the community.

None of the reworks you've mentioned have been black or white success/failures. Some parts worked, some parts don't. Every discussion I've seen at the time of these (including the Darius rework) that was at all constructive started by talking about the parts that don't, and ended up talking about absolute statements like the one's you're saying.

Honestly, what constructive comments could you make if someone from Riot replied to you right here and now? You haven't exactly left a whole lot of room for a real discussion with your post.

Häßlich1 votes

While some people are doing that, and I'll give you that, it still doesn't excuse how constructive posts are ignored, like mine, and that's the real reason you can't perceive a "black or white" success/failure with them. Players get tired of being ignored and eventually give up on it. I wrote a post a year or two ago about Shaco's bugs, and that went ignored despite the attention it got from the community. How can you expect to have a productive discussion when Riot ignores its players?

redniwediS2 votes

The real question is why Riot is ignoring us. From what I can tell the real reason is somewhere on this list:

  1. Riot does not pay close enough attention to the boards.
  2. Rioters are repeatedly driven away from constructive discussion by nonconstructive members of the community.
  3. Riot does listen, but is not transparent about their decision making when they disagree.
  4. The community has a undue feeling of entitlement when it comes to their opinions.
  5. The community does not do enough to make sure constructive feedback is brought to the attention of Rioters.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but since I joined the boards these are the top reasons I see brought up repeatedly. There is a lot that Riot can do here, but I can't help but think they do not believe it's worth the effort. Recent board rule changes seem to support reason 2 a bit, but trying to bring order to a disorganized community like ours is like trying to herd cats.

Both sides need work, but outside of organizing as a community, which is a next to impossible task that may or may not be a good idea in the first place, I don't really see what we can do about it until Riot does their half first.

Häßlich4 votes

Well, that I can agree with, but as long as both sides are waiting for the other to make the first move, nothing gets done. In this case, Riot has their finger on the trigger, because we can't really expect the community to just up and suddenly organize. If it takes tighter moderation, or a separate board with strict moderations just on it, that might be a way to resolve some of this to facilitate a useful, productive discussion and leave the trolls on the general boards.

Either way, Riot cannot really afford to just ignore its community in the long run. The community, on the other hand, has lots of other games they can migrate to if it ever came to that. I'm not saying it should or will, but that is definitely something which warrants consideration when addressing this topic.

toonpang10 votes

{quoted}

What would be better for us, to see Riot learn a lesson of humility, or for Riot to succeed and finally start mixing up the bot lane meta?

Personally I'm not into spectacles. I don't slow down to gawk at an accident on the side of the road, and so I would prefer the latter to be the case.

As a longtime Morde main I'd much rather just see the mixing up of the botlane meta done by creating a NEW CHAMPION.

I like being able to play my favorite champ in top, mid, jungle, as well as in the APC role right now.

Mordekaiser is already one of League's most adventurous champions with the "kill and control an enemy" gimmick. They took that too far with this new "Duo lane bruiser" gimmick. He's one of the last champions it was logical to pick to send botlane with an ally.

Thank you though for not mocking our misfortune.

ihaveapotion5 votes

you cant force a meta, metas are a process that only the playerbase can figure out as it shakes off status quo. If riot thinks they can create a new meta they truly have no analytical skill.

redniwediS3 votes

You can't force it, but you can give it a suggestive nudge.

Count Buffon8 votes

Giving a champion PASSIVE: Duo lane or feed! is not a suggestive nudge. The community is 100% right to call shenanigans on this ham-fisted move to force the meta.

Häßlich6 votes

The funny part is that it probably won't even effect the meta unless it's brokenly OP--in which case it will get nerfed into the ground. Most people will still be farm more comfortable taking an adc or mage into bot lane than a melee bruiser/tank, and for good reason: Range. Ranged AAs are like miniature "free" spells whose only cost is that you properly position. Melees tend to have a very difficult time with this, even in top lane, and bot lane is that much worse because there's a support to ward the bushes which negates the only real chance that Melees have in top/bot lane. This is why almost nobody takes a melee carry into bot lane.

RiotRiot Scruffy25 votes

Hey guys, I've been meaning to post some thoughts/plans on the morde update in one of these big threads, so here it is. CertainlyT, Meddler, Repertoir, Statikk, me, and a bunch of other designers have been paying a lot of attention to and discussing all of the morde feedback that we've been seeing on the boards this past week.

==CHANGE IS SCARY== The first thing I wanted to weigh in on is that the changes are definitely trying some pretty out there and meta breaking ideas (i've always admired CertainlyT for his innovation). This comes with a bunch of costs, but also what we think is more benefit. Making an immobile melee kit with no CC work in the bot lane is a really crazy task and from the experience that we have from internally testing it (and you guys are experiencing on the PBE), it takes some time to get used to.

Introducing some new ways to break the meta while preserving the conventional solo lane viability of the character is our goal. When it hits live, try this new morde wherever you prefer and see what works/doesn't. We will be listening and responding to feedback in the following patches for sure.

==POST RELEASE SUPPORT== With these pretty new/untested goals we know that there is a pretty good chance that things aren't going to be 100% perfectly tuned when he comes out. We have already been planning a bunch of follow up plans for as many possible scenarios that might occur. Some things we would fix if we saw them on live:

  • Morde not viable as a bot lane pick (this doesn't mean he has to show up in pro play)
  • Morde not viable as a solo laner (same as above, pro play is not how we judge this)
  • Morde mechanics are buggy
  • Aspects of morde kit are not fun for the majority of players after people have had a chance to try it out and adapt

Sorry that this post doesn't address any of the specific points people have been making, but I did want to pop in and give some context on our approach to making sure that the morde update is +fun +value for players, which is the #1 goal.

-Scruff

Edit: if there are specific questions that you guys feel are really important to answer, go ahead and reply. I'll come back in (or repertior will beat me to it most likely) and give the context that I can.

Nefas17 votes

You say here that you want Morde to be viable in a solo lane. CertainlyT on the PBE forums said that he doesn't think Morde's kit can ever be healthy in a solo lane. What gives? What are we suppose to make of this?

RiotRiot Scruffy10 votes

Not sure what he said that gave that impression, but the last few times I've talked with him we came to the conclusion that he would probably be still viable in solo lanes and that that was definitely an ok thing.

McAllister5 votes

"As others mentioned, Morde is still able to solo lane/jungle in our testing, but doesn't shine as brightly as he does in a duo lane. I'm comfortable with that mainly because I do not think that Mordekaiser can ever be a marquee example of a healthy solo lane champion given how stark his strengths and weakness profile is -- An excessive number of his lane matchups are determined either at champion select or through jungler intervention, not through the relative skill of Mordekaiser and his lane opponent." http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread?comment=0002000000000000

Is "I don't think he can ever be super healthy" different from "I don't think he can ever be healthy?" Mmmm... especially coming from the designer, who you'd expect to oversell the quality of the product, it's real close.

ButterBladesX3 votes

morde new q takes away his farm/ poke potential and w no work in solo lane and e has been nerfed to oblivion R.I.P solo lane morde

Hellioning17 votes

The third Riot response in 'Mordekaiser Change Summary & Feedback Thread':

As others mentioned, Morde is still able to solo lane/jungle in our testing, but doesn't shine as brightly as he does in a duo lane. I'm comfortable with that mainly because I do not think that Mordekaiser can ever be a marquee example of a healthy solo lane champion given how stark his strengths and weakness profile is -- An excessive number of his lane matchups are determined either at champion select or through jungler intervention, not through the relative skill of Mordekaiser and his lane opponent.

RiotRiot Scruffy12 votes

There's some truth in what he's saying about morde's kit not having the amount of healthy 1 on 1 interactions that a full top to bottom rework like Sion or Fiora brings to those lanes. CertainlyT is a super perfectionist and he's just calling it like it is here, morde is not the pinnacle of solo lane skill based matchups.

That said, I think that we're taking a "do no harm" stance on morde's solo lane compared to live. The solo laner may not be getting to exploit some of the crazy new tools (duo XP, dragon, W) as well as a duo morde, but he should be roughly as powerful/fun as live mordekaiser.

Eyrgos11 votes

{quoted}

...The solo laner may not be getting to exploit some of the crazy new tools (duo XP, dragon, W) as well as a duo morde, but he should be roughly as powerful/fun as live mordekaiser.

Not even close. Not with losing an ability.

Solo Morde is crap now, please fix. You ruined my favorite champion & how I like to enjoy him.

Run your meta-breaking, duo enforcement on some other champ. Don't ruin an old favorite by forcing him out of his classic role.

RiotRiot Scruffy13 votes

If solo morde ends up nerfed, we will address it. I'm just spelling out some of the goals/stance on solo vs duo morde.

CupcakeTrap9 votes

{quoted}

If solo morde ends up nerfed, we will address it. I'm just spelling out some of the goals/stance on solo vs duo morde.

Veigar You mean like how Veigar was compensated for DFG's removal with significant buffs to his core abilities? :3

AMYS GRAVE8 votes

How would you go about buffing solo lane morde without buffing duo lane morde? What are the balancing levers you see for this case?

Ulquiorra9953 votes

For starters, they could make W self/minion-castable, and dealing reduced damage in that case (so there are tradeoffs versus using it on a champion). It would not only up solo Morde's potential, but also improve skirmishes when he does not have a tanky ally who can make use of his W - and that also opens more options for botlane Mordekaiser, because in his current iteration he is forced to have a tanky initiator as his partner.

RiotRiot Scruffy4 votes

Things like solo W case, bonus XP in duo lane, E damage (we suspect this is better solo when he doesn't have allies to help him land W or Q).

There are plenty of options if that's how we end up needing to react.

Eyrgos9 votes

{quoted}

Things like solo W case, bonus XP in duo lane, E damage (we suspect this is better solo when he doesn't have allies to help him land W or Q).

There are plenty of options if that's how we end up needing to react.

IF?

Are you still not understanding that solo Morde is factually gimped in comparison to duo Morde due to the loss of an ability & power budget being granted to duo alone?

Make a solo W, scrap the bonus XP in duo lane, & spread that power budgeting elsewhere.

Please for the love of god, save our Morde from this duo-enforcement.

toonpang13 votes

{quoted}

There's some truth in what he's saying about morde's kit not having the amount of healthy 1 on 1 interactions that a full top to bottom rework like Sion or Fiora brings to those lanes. CertainlyT is a super perfectionist and he's just calling it like it is here, morde is not the pinnacle of solo lane skill based matchups.

That said, I think that we're taking a "do no harm" stance on morde's solo lane compared to live. The solo laner may not be getting to exploit some of the crazy new tools (duo XP, dragon, W) as well as a duo morde, but he should be roughly as powerful/fun as live mordekaiser.

YOU SHOULD READ THE PBE THREAD SCRUFFY. PLEASE.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread

THE ISSUES WITH THESE CHANGES ARE TOO NUMEROUS TO COVER FULLY, BUT HERE GOES.

IT DOESN'T FIT HIS THEME AT ALL [THE MASTER OF PAIN AND SUFFERING IS A HEALER? WHAT THE FUCK? AND HOW DOES BONUS XP WITH ALLIES MAKE THEMATIC SENSE? http://www.goldper10.com/article/2112.html]

IT MAKES HIM MORE RELIANT ON ALLIES TO SUCCEED AND LESS RELIANT ON HIS OWN SKILL.

IT OVERLOADS HIS KIT.

IT'S OVERPOWERED IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES AND USELESS OTHERWISE. WHICH IS WHY RIOT REWORKED SKARNER, BECAUSE FEAST/FAMINE DESIGNS ARE BAD.

IT DOES NOT FIX THE STATED ISSUE OF MORDEKAISER BEING A PAIN TO PLAY AGAINST OR HAVING A CONFUSED IDENTITY. IT MAKES THESE PROBLEMS WORSE.

IT THROWS MORDEKAISER'S CURRENT PLAYSTYLE OUT THE WINDOW AND MAKES EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WITH HIM OBSOLETE, WHICH RIOT WOULD NEVER GET AWAY WITH DOING TO SOMEONE LIKE LEE SIN OR ZED

PLEASE, JUST SCRAP THE PBE CHANGES UNTIL YOU HAVE TIME TO GIVE MORDE A SION LEVEL REWORK.

THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA. LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY. PLEASE.

SettDownShutUp4 votes

Caplocks aside, this man is right. Mordekaiser is in need of sion levels of rework, and CertainlyT has proven through his decisions and more importantly, his inability to respond to harsh criticism that he's not the man for it.

Hellioning23 votes

Yes, current Morde isn't the healthiest in any lane. Neither is Darius, but Darius' rework is adding in mechanics to keep him in a solo lane, but still make him healthier (such as adding the delay on his Q, fixing that apprehend bug.) CertainlyT, meanwhile, just straight up decided 'I can't think of anything' and then shoved him in bot.

I just straight up do not understand why you're okay with letting W be useless in a solo lane. Every other ability that's useless in a solo lane is a passive or something; hell, even Braum can activate his passive by himself.

This change was designed to put him into bot lane. Please stop trying to bullshit us that that wasn't the intention. Maybe his Q and E are super strong enough to let him be in a solo lane, but that means he's gonna be OP in bot lane and he's gonna get nerfed anyway.

If I was a Morde main I'd be pissed.

toonpang10 votes

{quoted}

Not sure what he said that gave that impression, but the last few times I've talked with him we came to the conclusion that he would probably be still viable in solo lanes and that that was definitely an ok thing.

What he said was that "I don't feel Mordekaiser can ever be healthy in a solo lane." YOU SHOULD READ THE PBE THREAD SCRUFFY. PLEASE.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KhcvQBlG-mordekaiser-change-summary-feedback-thread

THE ISSUES WITH THESE CHANGES ARE TOO NUMEROUS TO COVER FULLY, BUT HERE GOES.

IT DOESN'T FIT HIS THEME AT ALL [THE MASTER OF PAIN AND SUFFERING IS A HEALER? WHAT THE FUCK? AND HOW DOES BONUS XP WITH ALLIES MAKE SENSE ON MORDE? http://www.goldper10.com/article/2112.html]

IT MAKES HIM MORE RELIANT ON ALLIES TO SUCCEED AND LESS RELIANT ON HIS OWN SKILL.

IT OVERLOADS HIS KIT.

IT'S OVERPOWERED IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES AND USELESS OTHERWISE. WHICH IS WHY RIOT REWORKED SKARNER, BECAUSE FEAST/FAMINE DESIGNS ARE BAD.

IT DOES NOT FIX THE STATED ISSUE OF MORDEKAISER BEING A PAIN TO PLAY AGAINST OR HAVING A CONFUSED IDENTITY. IT MAKES THESE PROBLEMS WORSE.

IT THROWS MORDEKAISER'S CURRENT IDENTITY OUT THE WINDOW AND MAKES EXPERIENCED PLAYERS WITH HIM OBSOLETE, WHICH RIOT WOULD NEVER GET AWAY WITH DOING TO SOMEONE LIKE LEE SIN OR ZED

PLEASE, JUST SCRAP THE PBE CHANGES UNTIL YOU HAVE TIME TO GIVE MORDE A SION LEVEL REWORK.

THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA. LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY.

RiotRiot Scruffy11 votes

Ow the caps. I'll address a few of the points and hopefully give you some satisfactory answers. On top of providing my opinions I just want you to also know that we really care about the community feedback and we're going to make sure that we don't do you guys wrong with the overall changes.

  1. Yea, morde is definitely more reliant on his team to succeed, but he will also become a more valuable and important member of the team. Morde's allies will be heavily invested in helping him succeed and this should hopefully create a satisfying feeling of teamplay/teamwork.

  2. Not sure what is overloaded about the new morde kit, each spell has a clear and simple use case.

  3. Morde is definitely "overpowered in the right situation," but I think this actually speaks to your first point of "less reliant on his own skill." the new kit gives morde many more ways to plan and execute on skillful play, and it rewards him greatly for doing so. We are also attempting to lower his feast/famine nature (for example the E change where a champ hit gives % max shield instead of % damage).

  4. The point about experienced morde players having to relearn a lot of stuff is totally valid. Though I think that the current hardcore morde players will have a significant head start on the newcomers as his playstyle is remaining mostly intact.

toonpang15 votes

Okay. THANK YOU. Sorry about the allcaps, it's just we've been ignored for like 9 days now.

1. But does that thematically even work making Mordekaiser reliant on allies? Is it even fair on Mordekaiser mains to pull this shit at all? This is almost like, for us, taking away Lee Sin's skillshot and making it require an ally to cast.

Sure, it adds teamwork, but it takes away from one's own feeling of being skilled and puts it in the hands of others. Morde is just about helpless without ally assistance now, when before I was very much accustomed to Mordekaiser being one of the least team-independent champions in the game, along with the Tryndamere players and so on.

If my soloqueue allies fed in the botlane or the midlane, I would say "hueheu, I'm Mordekaiser, not to worry," and I could usually reliably duel most enemies one on one even if my allies never showed up. Now, I NEED my teammates to lock people down for my third Q hit, and help me catch people, and access my W ability. I rely on unreliable allies in soloqueue, frequently strangers who I have never met before.

My skill, game sense, and so on directly influenced my results. Now, they mean nothing to my results if I don't have someone to CC for me and get me to targets. Is that really acceptable, gimping a champion like that? Would you do that to Lee Sin or Zed mains?

2. Because overloaded isn't just about what spells are used for, it's also about the passives. Overloaded means that a champion does more than it says on the tin, has hidden power, which may not be apparent to enemies for example or which makes the champion have no weaknesses because it does too much.

Mordekaiser's new ultimate is overloaded: The ability. It heals, it does damage burst and over time, it steals AP, it steals HP, it gives you a champion ghost and takes their passive, AND ON TOP OF THAT gives you a dragon if you kill the dragon.

3 All I feel with the new Mordekaiser is that I get rewarded heavily if I have a good team, and punished hard if I don't. Mordekaiser's weaknesses and strengths were clear: He was a HP caster but had no innate sustain, was a strong lane bully but vulnerable to ganks, and he was a big threat as a fighter, but very immobile and lacked CC.

If I get a half-decent Thresh support, all those laning phase weaknesses are eliminated. My new W gives me and Thresh a free manaless heal, the changes to Q mean I now control my waveclear and am thus less vulnerable to ganks, and Thresh fixes my immobility and CC problems by peeling for me and bringing me along with lantern. And now on top of all that I get a Dragon ghost. NO EXPLOITABLE WEAKNESSES.

And as we've seen from CertainlyT's previous designs, a champion with no exploitable weaknesses is overpowered, is left OP by Riot for a month or so, then nerfed hard and forgotten. A champion with few exploitable weaknesses is called cancer by the playerbase, because cancer, too, has few exploitable weaknesses.

4. Well, thanks, but are you as a Riot employee going to say "yes, your point is valid" and then just let it kind of go?

In closing, Mordekaiser is currently a champion with clear strengths and weaknesses, a 50% winrate, a unique full playstyle and a 2% playrate, something every champ should be striving for. I feel if you guys want to change him, you should wait for a full Sion level rework, because CertainlyT's attempt is honestly just a dog's breakfast which is going to be horrible for the game upon release, a return to his previous mistakes. It will be fun for us Morde players for a short time, then awful in the long term. Mordekaiser

Thanks for your consideration and reply.

RiotRiot Scruffy7 votes

Yea I see your general point in that there is definitely some reliance on his teammates to be successful. Though I think that generally a good champ design falls on one side or other of the spectrum of "I make plays" or "I capitalize on plays that my team makes." Generally thresh and supports fall into the first category while adcs, juggernauts, and damage focused mages fall in the latter. Morde, like a lot of low CC high damage champs bring that payoff to the team whenever an initiator or support catches an enemy. Generally I think its ok if he has some amount of reliance on teamplay to be successful, all champs should.

There is a line though where it goes too far. During development we actually thought that this was the case multiple times. When we were getting the feeling "how can I as morde control/win this lane?" there needs to be some minimum level of agency for him to feel good as a champ. A bunch of the changes on the kit are actually very specifically targeted at giving morde more control over his own laning experience. The w armor/MR -> heal change helps him a lot on controlling the poke/sustain game. Also the E changes are meant to specifically let him deal with/trade with a ranged opponent trying to harass him.

I'm just listing of some examples of how we are absolutely aware of the problem of too little agency for morde, and are willing to address it. If it's still not enough or there are ways to improve the experience when he goes live, the team is already prepared for evaluating and reacting to how it turns out.

When it comes to not having a weakness, I just don't agree here. Morde has super pronounced weaknesses: he's low mobility melee with no CC, that to me says "kiting" is a clear weakness for this champ.

Adrian Umbra5 votes

Morde has traditionally been in the camp of "I make plays" however, due to his excellent wave clear, split push potential, ult, etc. Quite similar to Nasus, actually. Forcing him into the latter camp exaggerates lot of his weaknesses (especially the new ones added into his kit) and ends up making him feel like he's reliant on an ally holding his hand, one of the main criticisms of this rework.

The heal only helps him if he has a teammate around to activate it on, which makes the explanation that it was meant to help his team independence fall pretty flat. On top of that, the E changes only really help him if he's building durability. The shield falls in an auto attack or so anyway on live, so saying he'll be able to get more shield if he builds durability while his opponent will be rushing straight damage is another point that feels hollow. Yes, if he gets durability items he'll be able to deal with his opponent's harass. At the cost of the damage he's supposed to provide to the team, as a huge chunk of it is locked into his Q ratios.

Finally, the more pronounced weakness to kiting (an already noticeable issue on live) means that you're more team reliant than ever, as this can be mitigated by a support being with you, as the above poster noted, not to mention his W. A good Thresh will still solve basically all the problems in your kit, bringing strong lockup (removes kiting), escape potential (removes weakness to chase), and healing (your W plus a Relic Shield if he gets that item). Alone, you're going to suffer from all these weaknesses, if you have someone holding your hand, your weaknesses disappear. As a Mordekaiser main, this is the main reason that I have issues with this new kit. Massive situational strength, massive situational weaknesses, where the difference between one and the other is whether you have a friend nearby.

Auryiel6 votes

You do realize he is TOO vulnerable to kiting, right?

You talk about his laning experience... but what about the rest of the game?

An AD carry can still feel good outside of the laning phase even without a support next to them or having to rely on their team mates to do everything for them. You can kill towers super easily. Is it safer to do so with an ally nearby? Of course, but your range, high damage and slipperiness in most cases allows you to do that and feel good about that play.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have Mordekaiser who will always feel like he cannot do anything without an ally, ESPECIALLY against champions good at kitting. And when I say anything, I mean it. Wtf is he supposed to do if Ashe decides to chase him? If she plays it smart, the worst thing that happens for her is she forces Morde to blow his Rylai's empowered ult and she casually walks away. The amount of reliance Morde has on allies is simply disgusting.

Xhieron9 votes

It ought to be an indication of how wrong things are going when members of the community are openly rooting for your failure.

I am regrettably among their ranks.

We have been outright ignored during the bulk of the testing period; now you're pushing these changes live--changes no one asked for and very few people are excited about--and you've had to come onto the boards pre-launch to triage the fallout. Now don't get me wrong; I'm genuinely grateful for any open line of communication, but let's not kid ourselves. The people decrying this rework aren't scared of change. We're many of the same people who've lobbied for work on this champ, and our reactions have been the furthest thing from hesitation or fear. In fact, I think many of us would not be so vocal if we did not believe so strongly that the opportunity we've been waiting for has been utterly squandered.

We're not scared. We're angry. We don't feel intimidated. We feel insulted. I can't speak for every Morde fan out there--not by a long shot--but I know I speak for a few in expressing the extent of my frustration. I genuinely get the feeling from the communications between Riot and the fans as a whole that at this point in the situation you guys are now trying to save face for CertainlyT long enough to get the changes pushed out and then fix it in a few patches. I can't put words in your mouth, but between the lines it looks a lot like "Look, we know these changes are awful, but please don't panic; let us keep our dignity, and we'll fix it in a patch or two." Even if I'm utterly wrong, and you can honestly give your full faith and confidence that these changes are going to be the best thing ever, the amount of poison they've generated ought to be a clear indication that the job has been botched.

Releasing good changes that everyone hates is not a reasonable alternative to releasing different good changes that everyone doesn't.

This is not acceptable, and it has almost nothing to do with whether the changes are objectively good. This is about respecting feedback when you ask for it and treating the assets like the community is actually invested in them. Fixing it after launch is better than nothing, but I want to hopefully not be the only voice to make clear that that approach is not at all without significant cost.

It's unfortunate that this is something many people on PBE have mentioned before. What you've communicated is that when you ask for feedback during testing, it might be digested internally, but no matter how pronounced, it will almost never result in meaningful change. Or to put it another way: by the time something makes it to PBE, it's basically final.

I'm sympathetic to that because I appreciate that you have sunk costs in things that make it to PBE--things like the dragon pet mechanic, in which you hate to admit that time spent on it is wasted that close to it going live. However, you should accept that that runs contrary to the aspirational company image when it comes to things like being responsive to the community--something for which you all have a very good reputation, and one I think until this point has been well deserved.

There is another issue here, as well, and that has a lot to do with the "Change is scary" mantra that I find infuriating. This issue is that even those of us with no familiarity with game design at all can appreciate that there is a difference between change that is healthy for the game and change that is necessary. There are a hundred different ways you could have actually fixed Mordekaiser, and most of them wouldn't have involved a Sion-level devotion of resources. They would have all resulted in a better Mordekaiser and a healthier game with the champ in it.

Instead, however, you went with this change--a fundamental rewriting of the champion to satisfy a curiosity about what the meta might tolerate. The problem is that we--fans of the live champion--cannot be convinced that this change is necessary for the champ to be healthy. We can't be convinced because it's objectively false. We can see alternatives. In fact, apparently everyone can see alternatives except the people responsible for making the changes. Your position seems to be that the benefit outweighs the cost, and I can only take that to mean that you must not take us seriously when we talk about things like ill will.

You've sorely underestimated the cost. I don't say that as a threat or a warning or anything of the sort; in fact, the only thing I stand to gain is that somebody at Riot maybe calls an extra meeting. After all, the ship has sailed on Mordekaiser. Even if someone starts from scratch on 5.18, the damage is already done.

Your fans hold you to a higher standard because the company is exceptional in more ways than one, and it's that that causes me--and people like me--to come out of the woodwork, so to speak, when these kinds of things are going on. It's that more than anything, we hang our heads at the thought that because of incidents like this, we're coming upon a time during which Riot is just another game studio. That does a lot more for your competitors' market shares than any amount of advertising, any tournament prizes, or even any actual game mechanics. I hate that outcome because I'm invested in your game. I have a stake in Riot getting its act together and for once saying, "Due to player feedback we've iceboxed the Mordekaiser changes" not because I love the champ--I do, but let's be real; I have other champs I can play--but because trusting the company to treat its assets with care is something that fundamentally makes my investment valuable to me.

If I can't trust Riot to treat its assets with as much respect as I do, then I'm that much more likely to look to Blizzard or Valve to see if they do.

Best of luck with these changes. I hope they crash and burn, and I mean that with all the love in the world.

stuartk115 votes

I will definitely be trying out these changes either way. I will try to keep my points concise to actually save time:

What do you believe will be the most important stats to itemize for on new Mordekaiser (be it going 2 AD items and full tank, or hybrid, or whatever)?

Are you concerned that players will try building up Q stacks before flash-autoing for their third massive Q hit? This would kind of make his whole weakness be negated and deal a large amount of damage in an instant.

How long have you been planning to try out new duo lane roles?

Do you feel the movement speed nerf was justified?

Overall, the thought behind the rework is solid. Maybe the implementation wasn't as great, though I would be shocked if no changes had to be made in the very next patch to address some concerns.

BastionKross5 votes

I have a question. Do you think the new Morde will be powerful enough to function in a solo lane where he can only use his W when/if the jungler comes to gank? I have my doubts, as his W is a major source of damage, his only source of mobility, and his heal. Those seem like very powerful and important things to lose by taking Morde solo. Will Morde be able to lane without many pains, or will his solo laning phase end up being Poppy level difficult?

RiotRiot Scruffy9 votes

I think he will, The buffs on P, Q and E are probably enough in themselves. How much actual power was old W providing his solo lane?

Hellioning9 votes

Well, for one, it allowed him to farm, harass, and keep his shield up when he couldn't get into melee range without getting hurt badly.

Nefas15 votes

It provided a lot of help in difficult lanes. Casting on minions to make for easier safe farming. Maxing earlier to get its noticeable resistances (which have been removed).

Malicious Metal7 votes

{quoted}

I think he will, The buffs on P, Q and E are probably enough in themselves. How much actual power was old W providing his solo lane?

  1. It's great at pushing the wave hard in regards to your opponent backing/leaving to roam, punishing him for it

  2. It's a great tool at building up consistent shield in minion waves, as well as damaging your opponent when dueling, without having to spam your abilities. Example: you put the shroud on you, charge into the fight, the AOE shredding your enemy while you whack at them with your low CD abilities.

  3. If a minion wave was coming into your lane, while getting ganked, it provided some sort of escape, providing MS, while allowing you to juke CC easier, maybe also slowing the attacker if you already had Rylai's.

On the topic of enticing Morde into a duo lane, I get that you want to tempt him to go duo because of the W active, passive and the dragon clone, which is fine, I just think the passive exp, dragon clone on top of an AOE heal already make his duo lane seem like a good idea. Top and mid lane Morde may just need the AOE damage for waveclear/safe shield gain, in order to survive heavy match ups. (Riven, Darius, Renek and mages with brutal wave clear, which Morde could match better before, as well as range)

TENTACLELUVR6 votes

At least in mid lane, a lot of players maxed W to shove without a ton of risk.

More from Gameplay

More by Burnt Iron King