So can we just change it into a tanky/utility option rather than a burst item?
Just nerf the slow down 10%, give it less AP and more HP and call it a day.
Mages should be giving up something for the slows. Be it a mana item or a high damage item.
Mages should WANT damage, that's why the build Rylais, make them want to build Rylais as an option rather than try to just make it a core item for them.
Talisid30 votesWhy would you take it as a utility item if you nerf the slow effect on it?
Nerfing the AP and giving it more HP is probably a good idea but if you also nerf the slow it will just become irrelevant.
Elros Thranduil5 votesbut then nobody will build rylai's except vladimir,mordekaiser maybe. Mages actually get it right now because it gives huge ap, huge hp and perma slow chance. They have to lose some damage to get CC but they get both in a decent level. This is the problem.
It Hertz When IP6 votesStill doesn't answer his question: why nerf the utility? If it's still OP, nerf the damage (AP) some more, don't shit on the slow percentage.
50000000000000002 votesRight. Nerf the utility if you want Rylai's to be a damage option with minor utility. (and it seems like nobody wants that)
Malicious Metal10 votesBecause the utility is way too high? Rylais used to be a minuscule 15% slow and then it got buffed to a whole 40%, more than TWICE as high.
30% would be enough if you ask me :P
Liofa10 votesThe people who keep asking for the slow to be nerfed or keep asking for these random as fuck changes have no idea what they're saying. It's not that hard, revert the stupid changes made to the item and it'll be fine.
flibitydoo2 votesIt's not as simple as revert Rylais back to it's old state. Because when they rolled out the Rylai changes in the midyear magic update, they also changed how slows work
multiple slows no longer stack, only the strongest will have any effect.
Of course the issue with the cc of rylais isn't just the slow itself, it's the part where it's viable enough in stats to rush early on, and the fact that most mages can typically leave a guy slowed the entire fight. Which is extremely painful to deal with.
this item used to be called Entropy. Then it got reworked into a bigger Doran's blade. But back then, you could build it in ARAM and I think dominion (memory fails me since the game mode was removed a long time ago). I personally thought it was a way more balanced version of Frozen mallet.
What it did was it gave you slows on auto attacks.... but you had to activate the item for a 5 second buff where your autos could slow. So there wasn't permanent slowing effect all the time. Personally I would love to see both Rylais and frozen mallet replaced with Entropy-slow styled weapons.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesBefore it got updated, its slow was pretty meaningless unless you had single target skills.
ZT Xperimentor9 votesRather mages be building it often, than marksmen building frozen mallet; at least mages are gated by cooldowns.
hhaavviikk6 votescooldowns?
what are those?
rtbf2349624752 votes
This slow was brought to you by the letter Q, and so was this one, and so ....
ZT Xperimentor1 votesMeanwhile marksmen permaslow thanks to autoattacking multiple times a second, while chunking you for massive damage without any limitation.
Phelas3 votesBut no marksman builds frozen mallet? Like srsly.
YoungFarmer2 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0WMflB5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-12T14:00:24.058+0000)
Rather mages be building it often, than marksmen building frozen mallet; at least mages are gated by cooldowns.
I agree, I honestly have always found frozen mallet much more op then rylais.
Stephenizgod5 votesWhy not just revert the buffs to it? It wasn't a problem before the buffs, it had decent AP but was mostly used for Utility and tank. Not every AP champ even wanted it, there were a few champs it was core on and a few more where it was part of one of their builds. Other than that, Rylais was a very average item, no one complained about it and no one really built it just to build it.
The Yetii Rider2 votesOld Rylai's slow wasn't worth it.
More importantly, and the HP proponents haven't addressed this yet, if you revert it you only have three items that build out of NLR. That component item should be an option to rush and then build into different options based on your situation.
Leon Etoile5 votesThe problem is Rylais is a must buy for most champs purely for the slow. They need the slow to make their kits work. Like Rework Malz has to have it so his voidlings can do damage. Without his voidlings being able to stick to the target, he can't do any damage. This is why I hate new Malz. You are forced into static build.
I think the issue is that kits need changed so they aren't reliant on an item to be relevant and/or the item is reworked like hextech revolver (40 sec cd) with an internal cd to work around an effect.
Mira Arya Enthe4 votes[{quoted}](name=Leon Etoile,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0WMflB5,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-10-12T17:09:34.061+0000)
The problem is Rylais is a must buy for most champs purely for the slow. They need the slow to make their kits work. Like Rework Malz has to have it so his voidlings can do damage. Without his voidlings being able to stick to the target, he can't do any damage. This is why I hate new Malz. You are forced into static build.
I think the issue is that kits need changed so they aren't reliant on an item to be relevant and/or the item is reworked like hextech revolver (40 sec cd) with an internal cd to work around an effect.
Yeh... use to main malz for like 2 seasons, the rework turned him into an impossible to balance piece of shit. He was fine before it.
Leon Etoile3 votesYep, I don't even have fun playing him anymore. You used to have a lot of diversity in Malz before. You could build to burst carries, tank killing and etc. You would have to play around your spells for proper voidling balance.
Now you are just a pve slow bot.
SociopathFriend5 votesThis is technically untrue. Most mages can make their kits work without Rylai.
Case in point:
He doesn't need a Rylai to unload his combo on you- but it helps. That's generally how the item is on all mages- a help.
It's not required and it's not needed, but it's almost never sub-optimal- which is the current issue.
Pretty much the only champion who NEEDS it is Mordekaiser.
Leetri3 votesViktor needs it if he wants to land the 2nd part of his E on anyone who has built boots.
IPromiseTomorrow3 votesWell that's helping the second part of his E. Pretty sure Viktor still reks kids without his second E.
SociopathFriend2 votesOr if they're slowed/stunned by the W- which is part of his kit.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesYou have a slow on your gravity field that goes into a stun. If you can place it correctly, you'll easily be able to land your 2nd E.
MrWasjig1 votesBut Malz isn't a burst mage, he's damage-over-time-centric and that's based around his Voidlings. He isn't always gonna want to dump his entire QWER on a target, sometimes it's not practical or he might be trying to just simply do damage without his ult, something he has a less than easy time doing without Rylai's :P
His old kit outright didn't need it, but it just happened to work really well on it given his old kit was centred more around Malefic Visions and it's longer duration.
SociopathFriend1 votesThe point is- just about every champion has a good way to use their kit- and just about all of them do not require items- the items just help.
He has a speed-boost and a stun to get in range and keep in range. Because half his kit is just being close enough to them. He doesn't NEED 
or 
- but they both help him.
Cleanses slows and gains a MS buff. Often builds 
to get more MS but again- not required for him to work properly.
MS buff plus a stun plus a slowing knockback. Again, Rylai's isn't NEEDED- but it helps. It always helps- there's no downside to it. Even if it was shot back to its 15% slow it would still possibly be built just as often- it can't hurt and can only help.
Passive MS buff, MS buff for landing Q, AoE slow, another Aoe slow or stun. Again, benefits a lot from Rylai- doesn't NEED it to function.
A grab and a slow/pull. Sure he often builds for the MS buff- but again- he can work without it.
All champions who require gapclosers, CC, or mobility HAVE a gapcloser, CC, or mobility. With the exception of Morde. I just take slight issue with people saying champions need it to function- they do not. Every champion, every kit, is made to work without requiring items. Even Mord could kinda make the claim since he's meant (at least back when he was reworked) to follow a tanky support into battle- so slap the W on them and get a MS while running at your enemy. Lackluster and didn't work mind you- but the premise was still there and fulfilled.
MrWasjig1 votesFair enough you got me there. They don't NEED them. But I would still argue that Malzahar benefits a lot more from taking Rylai's than not. That's the point I was getting at, and in fact still argue that he outright struggles without it in the same way Morde does. Yes their kits are supposed to work without items to crutch them, but that's simple not the case since they so clearly do need the items to crutch their kits.
CerealBoxOfDoom4 votes[{quoted}](name=Soul Furnace,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0WMflB5,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-12T13:33:23.081+0000)
Let's be honest, nobody wants Mages to build Rylais 24/7
I do
mages should be slowing you down not speeding up
IPromiseTomorrow1 votesI don't want to live in your cruel vision.
CerealBoxOfDoom3 votesMy cruel vision is reality, its what's been balanced in many games.
Mages are the slow moving and far reaching harbringers of area of effect magical shenanigans. They fight using cc and cunning and all sorts of stuff. Some mages are mobile but rather than casting tons of diabolical spells they abuse a few practical but really cool ones to achieve their speed and maximize your butthurt as they set up for the big finisher. Such mages behave something like assassins
In league we have these mages that can kite a ranger. Do you understand how silly that is? Rangers get boots and more boots, they forego defense just so they can keep up with you and chase you around. In this game they are sometimes slower than the mages. Everyone is faster than fighters but fighters will be compensated, mages also put up so many walls the fighters cant cross so they are compensated again. All this compensation leads to things like irelia, xin, and jax who were the prototypes of how to rebalance all the nonsense that eventually led to things like yasuo and zed.
Tanks should deal massive damage 1 time every long period and then reload while locking people down if they have any help. mages should not want or need boots unless they wish to behave like assassins or just really need to kite something adcs should be sanic fast even if they slow you down assassins should be hyper mobile with stupid low cooldowns on all their abilities except for one that gates their one-shot potential. Leblanc should be blinking around like its urf mode but should only be instagibbing you when you meets requirement 1-10 all at once and the planets align. fighters should be spending long times being strong but then have long cooldowns and clear windows of weakness as one last push builds up and they just go berserk for a while again while waiting on their cooldowns
But league is league and it does the league thing and then we complain about how it doesn't balance out quite right... oh well
Btw teleporting abilities should be common on mages. Things like flash or something like that are something mages tend to get in the games that this game bases its archetypes on
IPromiseTomorrow2 votesMy cruel vision is reality, its what's been balanced in many games.
My cruel vision is reality
Leblanc should be blinking around like its urf mode but should only be instagibbing you when you meets requirement 1-10 all at once and the planets align.
So you can take me seriously. I can agree to this, I just don't know how it could be done.
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votesshouldn't be too hard, considering she already marks you
10 marks and you die no matter what, they now have like no expiration and only go away if you go cleanse yourself at the fountain lol
just for example
IPromiseTomorrow1 votesYo wtfffff. That's interesting, I don't think aby champ has an ability with such a magnitude as "install death" on a timer, that's a minute long. And has another factor of "reaching the target 10 times".
CerealBoxOfDoom1 votesleblanc is one of the most powerful champs in league lorewise. Leblanc isn't even leblanc, she's an illusion of the real leblanc so powerful that it could enter league on its own.
imagine this,
leblanc passive - leblanc can pick a teammate like kindred's passive pick's enemies. If she's standing near somewhere the enemy can't see she may randomly spawn an imitation of said champ. She can also do herself. If she drops below 30% she stealths and 4 blinky spots appear around her. She can click one to escape or make a play or somethin but then they all go away.
Q - mark a champ for a really long time with a skillshot. If you can land one of these for each 400 hp they have on this champ before they go actively get rid of it they just die. No matter what kind of defense they have boom dead. Increase the range and decrease the damage though. Deals aoe damage around the target like a Taliyah Q and marks all targets. When a champion or minion dies maybe it should spread the marks around like a bloody circus act. 
FO MUH NEXT TRICK!
W - deals more damage to marked targets and has bonus effects if they have so many marks. Deals very little damage, unless you are marked, but the cooldown should be lower.. like urf lower. Leblink all day. What is mana even. No mana cost. Redistribute mana costs.
E - if the chain completes they get double marks. Should cost a shit ton of mana and have a long cooldown. This will often be the big finale
R - same as before. Cooldown should match that of E with its increased cooldown.
Traditionally I think this is what the most healthy assassins would look like. There are also other types of course but a lot of those aren't very fun for both sides and wouldn't fit well into league.
But then they also have other things different...
for example. If she were a more traditional tank.
Increase all cooldowns.. like seriously just double them. Everytime someone triggers her passive it should take a second off the cooldowns.
Passive - Lasts 1 second, is no longer consumed by activation. Reduced cooldowns when triggered.
Q - Same as before, but slamjam levels of damage if the target was already slowed or had some other CC. Remove buffs against a target, cooldown reduced against targets with sunlight.
W - Same as before but now gives her slow resistance and tenacity while its up. No explosion just burns everything around her slowly like sunfire. In fact give her a tiny sunfire effect that causes her to draw agro under towers. Procs her passive while active ability is in play.
E - same as before but with higher cooldowns, cooldown reduced against targets with sunlight.
R - The beam of light stays there and continues to stun and slow in the same zones for like 2 seconds. This ability no longer has a cooldown. She can only unlock it by charging it up by having her passive proc'd
**Keep in mind this is just a glimpse at what the more traditional looking setup would be. Tanks normally aren't viable as damage dealers but do have brief moments of slamjam, especially at early levels. Assassins usually have something that nobody without a special defensive ability is going to survive if they just sit there and take it. Tanks will need a few extra passes but wont be given the chance to run either. Rangers should be kiting that much harder and should all have unique aa abilities to make this work out. **
**But league is league, these aren't necessarily the most fun setups, just what would make things work the way riot probably wished they could and balance itself out. **
Blumpkin Nation3 votesTBH, The slow should be reduced to 10% for DoT effects, 20% for AoE Effects, and 30% for single target spells. From there, the interaction with certain spells should be fixed. I.E. Twin Fang (Cass) is only allowed to apply a 10% slow.
The AP should be reduced to 80 while the health remains the same. The slow duration should be changed to end at the same time as a DoT effect, while the other ability types slow for 1.5 seconds.
Talisid3 votesThe issue with that is that there aren't too many mages that actually have single target effects in the first place, and most of those are skillshots that have CC on them anyway like Brand's Q.
Some mages that need to get into close range and stick to their targets like Swain and Mord don't have anything to trigger the full slow.
Or Mages with tiny sized AoE effects like Maokai Q/E, Sejuani Q, (if you wanted AP for some awful reason) Karthus Q, Elise W, Veigar Q, they all have very small AoE spells that won't get the full slow but rarely hit more than one target.
On the other hand some things like giving Viktor a 40% AoE Slow on his Q or giving Vel'Koz a gigantic AoE 40% slow on his W is stupid.
I'm not convinced there is a universal set of rules that you could apply to the slow effect that make sense for every champion.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesno not just less AP. NO ap at all. 0 ap.zero.
even meddler said it will lose all the ap i believe
Miraweave17 votesno not just less AP. NO ap at all. 0 ap.zero.
even meddler said it will lose all the ap i believe
He didn't, lol. That's a really silly idea.
Astôlfo2 votesWhy are you even bothering with a troll?
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesbrrrrronze.
Astôlfo4 votescrrrrry more
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesabout what? why would i cry about your rank. its not really up to me that your bad. neither do i care. just pointing it out for you incase you forgot
Astôlfo3 votesSame reason you cry about balanced champions. Because you do unusual, nonsensical things all the time.
Big Lincoln4 voteslol riot should do this
0 AP Rylai so Illaoi builds it late game
Astôlfo2 votesOh god that would be hell.
Ahristocats2 votesdon't forget to reduce the price, riot tried to nerf the price but it didn't work, just revert the nerf along with the buff they did to it a year ago.
JRobin312 votesI usually build Rylai's because of the hp. I can build Luden's Echo for 10% more speed and more damage than Rylai's. Everyone talks about the slow. That's because getting slowed by an enemy with more hp reduces their personal fun factor more than having the enemy be faster than them and have more damage to kill them with. It isn't because Rylai's is generically better (even though some champions naturally have a better synergy with Rylai's).
It's the same reason that I don't play Blitzcrank when I queue as support: Blitzcrank's W gives him a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds. I decided that it was just not fun to play with that. Blitzcrank can be successful on the Rift, but you won't see me playing him.
Villainous2 votesHad an idea about swapping up the build paths of Rylai's and Hextech GLP–800 in order to focus the two on different roles; make Rylai's more of a poke/long range oriented item that uses the slow to prevent the enemy from closing in, and make Hextech GLP–800 the aggressive 'stand still so I can kill you' type of thing. It could also possibly be done by making a new item to fulfil the niche, but GLP is (as far as I can tell) basically only bought on A.Sol atm anyway. Doing that also helps breaks up the RoA + Rylai's + Liandries build, since you're doubling up on the Catalyst passive.
Rylai's Crystal Scepter NLR + Catalyst + 850g (3200g total) +300 HP +400 Mana +70 AP Unique – Eternity: 15% of damage taken from champions is gained as mana. Spending mana restores 20% of the cost as health, up to 25 per spell cast. Unique – Icy: Damaging abilities slow affected units by 40% for 1.5 seconds (duration reduced by 50% for AOE abilities). If the slow is applied more than once within 6 seconds, it has a diminished effect and only slows by 15%.
Hextech GLP–800 Hextech Revolver + Aether Wisp + Blasting Wand + 800g (3600g total) +120 AP +5% Movement Speed Unique ACTIVE – Frost Bolt: Fires a spray of icy bolts that explode on impact, dealing 100 - 200 (based on level) (+ 35% AP) magic damage to all enemies hit (40 second cooldown, shared with other Hextech items). Enemies hit are slowed by 65% decaying over 1.5 seconds. Enemies hit by multiple bolts take no additional damage, but are slowed for an additional 0.5 seconds for each bolt (up to a maximum of 3 seconds).
Admittedly, I haven’t wholly thought this through, so the numbers/concepts might be a little off, but I think I've illustrated my point. Ideally, you have the middlingly statted Rylai's that boosts your kiting and ability to sustain through a fight (which feeds into its ability to consistently apply the slow, even at a reduced level) and the GLP that functions as the high AP 'I just want you to slow down for a moment so I can kill you'.
ScrubCompactor1 votesi would be in favor of Rylai's losing it's HP bonus(or at least having it's HP bonus reduced to half of what it currently is) in exchange for mana and CDR, another issue that i'm seeing is all these Sustained Damage Mages running around with this build: 
and whatever other item they want,
often resulting in them having at least 2.5k HP at end game, able to slowly tear through tanks and squishies without any strong mobility alike that are dumb enough to get too close to them while the DoT mages themselves being decently durable(except to ADCs who happen to have both 
and 
in their builds).
i'd also be alright with the slows on DoT abilities being reduced to maybe 15% rather than just DoTs not applying the slow all together(that would be a heavy handed solution to the problem of DoT mages permaslowing people)
Golden Tager X2 votesThe thing is, 
there are alot of champs that higher hp/lower ap option would work well with.
