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Why Kayle shouldn't be nerfed and how to fix why she's slightly overtunned

AirKingNeo··4 votes·1,760 views

Kayle is receiving huge nerfs on the PBE for reasons I can't understand. Kayle isn't ruining the game like Teemo, Pantheon, Akali, or Jayce are (and none of these are recieving substantial nerfs on the PBE at all), nor is she a high winrate, high playrate champion.

The base AD per level nerf is nonsensical. Kayle's last base AD nerf was in season 5 because of Dervourer (which was removed later and never compensated for) and therefore her jungling. Kayle jungle is already shit and Riot has made no effort to make Kayle jungle viable. Why is she recieving a nerf to hurt her jungle? I have no clue. Her laning is a lesser Singed. Yes, she pushes the wave, but the wave at least comes at you. Unlike Singed, you can fight back.

The E nerf is fucking massive. 18 second cooldown until rank 3 is larger than you think. In a majority of matchups (based on playrates) Kayle wants to put 2-3 points into W to survive the laning phase. His makes her laning phase infinitely more difficult. What about 14 second cooldown at rank 5, meaning she only needs 30% CDR to achieve permanent E? She doesn't need it. Kayle is already building 40% CDR and even more with Transcendence. This is literally going to make Kayle not fun to play, and suck even more jungle.

So what should be nerfed about Kayle? Nothing about Kayle, just the things she's able to be abuse.

Manaflow Band is one of the most broken runes right now and even I abuse it on Kayle. Most Kayle players do. Legit, I can perma heal myself in lane and never run out of mana. Kayle is normally a champion who has mana problems. Have you even seen this shit on Pantheon? Manaflow Band is already being nerfed on the PBE. Riot has already stated they do not want to double nerf (in the same patch) a champion when talking about Cho'Gath (Stoneplate was nerfed), "On things like Cho, we'd get cases were we double-down nerfs on items and champs, no need to go there."

Lethal Tempo and be procced by her splash damage on her E, and then proceed to be used to push the minion wave. This is my keystone for top lane 100%. Mid lane Kayle is just better right now because people are playing assassins and the fact it is preseason. Kayle mid was otherwise complete shit for the past two years, and her mid playrate is less than 1%. Since Kayle is the only champion who can use Lethal Tempo, as it would otherwise just be placed in a 'who is better' war with Press the Attack, most people would rather see is replaced with Fervor of Battle. Kayle still has Press the Attack.

Essence Reaver has brought Kayle back into a super late game status (that is, if late game ever comes). Remember how Kayle uses Transcendence? Now she can buy Essence Reaver to gain 40 AP (60 AP if ionian), 70 AD, 10% CDR, and 20% Crit Chance. People are starting to pick this up ever since I shared the build around and people figured out how pick of a stat stick it is. I've already said Essence Reaver should be a flat 20% CDR and not give 30% so that it's an option for caster ADCs like Lucian, Draven, and MF and not just being overpowered on late game ADCs like Sivir and Xayah.

Kayle hasn't been an issue since Sated Devourer was released. You don't see top laners complaining about Kayle at all. You seem Teemo, Akali, Pantheon, and Jayce being talked about. Why does Kayle get beat with a fucking hammer while these champions continue to ruin top lane? Some for more than just this preseason (all but Teemo). You can look at stats for both top lane and mid lane. Kayle's winrate is just sitting around 52% with a really low playrate. Most low playrate champions sit at 52% unless they're weak as shit like Aatrox.

"But you're just biased!" Never understood this one. If you don't play a champion you don't know anything, if you do play a champion you're biased. Or maybe it's because I like Kayle? Can I only comment on champions I do play yet don't like? Or maybe then I'm biased because I don't like them. Either way, I lead with the stats and easy ways to verify my stats. The data isn't biased.

I can't even play any of the champions I like except Kayle. Aatrox is shit and they refuse to fix anything about him so he'll always be shit. Ekko is some weird Frost Queen abuser who I don't find fun anymore. Varus and Ashe are in the shitter with bot lane being the most unfun thing around with MF, Leona, and Comet poke. Kayn (Rhasst) is completely ass without Fervor, and I don't find blue form appealing. I'm not even finding fun with Kayle now that I'm forced to dodge every time someone picks Teemo, Jayce, Akali, or Pantheon, half of who aren't even being touched, let alone being forced to stop breaking top lane. What Rioter got his face pounded by Kayle and decided to nerf her?

14 Comments

AirKingNeo3 votes

I didn't even mention how Riot didn't even touch Riven while her playrate was 10% and had a 53% winrate, which is so much more statistically powerful than Kayle has been.

Barkley2 votes

I'm actually pretty happy Kayle is out of meta right now.

When she's in meta, its such aids. She does so much bloody damage.

AirKingNeo5 votes

She hasn't been meta in 2 years.

The Peter Policy2 votes

This. Not sure where op is getting his numbers from. Plus wall of text keeps me from looking.

Anóóbvia1 votes

Not really sure what you're talking about with the double down nerfs and Jayce etc not being touched. The lethality nerfs that just went live seem to really hurt Jayce and Pantheon and the direct nerfs to Jayce's cooldowns and Teemo's base AD & health growth. Also with the frost queens build that's started floating around now, maybe they're pushing Kayle towards AP damage for her autos and not AD? Her win rate is high right now and if I remember correctly earlier this or last month she was at #1 for win rate for a day or two. Regardless of how many people play her it shows that she is capable of winning more games than she is losing and it doesn't seem to be balanced.

Also with all the nerfs to a vast majority of the top laners lately, Kayle should get one by default because if she didn't she would have an edge over all the others and probably wouldn't be killable in lane, which is the only time you can get to her in a game before she scales up and murders everyone. You take that away from everyone and Kayle is freelo.

Any other scaling champion is in the same situation.

okamiyasha951 votes

Whole up. Anybody who said Kayle needs no nerfs is a kayle main. Statistics don't point out the obvious reasons a champ would be op. For example, everybody knows new champions are op and not because people don't know how to play against them. They are made to be op on purpose for marketing reasons. Take Zoe for example. Flashes up the rear end for days, 0 sec cd AOE morg stun, and a one shot on all things moving. As a result, more people played her. This however, does not mean they have mastered her. It would only make sense that many champions would have a lower win rate and play rate than others simply because the meta makes some champs more viable than others. Statistics only point out what's more viable at the moment. This does not make them OP. Take nami, janna, and nasus for example. They are all in the top spots for win rates, but nobody is running around saying nerf Janna or nerf Nami. This is because in actual practice, they are balanced and easy to combat and it doesn't feel oppressive laning against them. Poppy is one of the most broken tanks in this meta and an oppressive laner with the right person playing her, but she sits at a lower win rate as opposed to other broken tanks (Maokai, Malphite). Kayle kicks out crazy amounts of damage. 1000 mixed damage with just her e in a few seconds at lvl 8 with one item ffs. Not only does she kick out crazy damage, she also heals, slows to keep distance or to secure kill, increases her attack range per e level up, and to put cake on the icing, a trynd-like ult. The MAJOR differences between kayle's ult and trynd's ult is even though it's shorter, you cannot heal from hits and spells off her AND she can give it to other champs besides just using it on her AND it's cd is almost as short as Blitzcrank's ult. So basically unless you use zhonya's, bard's ult, vlad pool, etc etc, you have no choice but to either cc her or just sit there and who tf is playing bard or syndra top? Mind you, She is a melee based champ who suddenly becomes a marksmen and mage once she uses her E, but kicks out more damage than melee champs. Her e cd might have been increased, but let's be honest with cd runes and cd items, it's not that long of a cd and she has other ways to cs and poke without e while being able to heal. Her kit is as overloaded Jayce and the only reason she isn't in a better spot is because either A: people suck with her, B: people don't find her as fun to play as a teemo or singed or C: They just suck at playing Kayle.

AirKingNeo1 votes

There are 2 of 3 things needed to show if a champion is overpowered: Solo Queue statistics, Proplay statistics, and High Elo Opinion. Kayle meets 0 of the criteria.

Nasus is OP right now because he can chain proc Kleptomancy on a 1 second cooldown. People do want him nerfed based on solo queue stats and high elo opinion.

Kayle doesn't beat tanks with mix damage either. Having mixed damage is a weakness because it means tanks can itemization against you and you have no form of reliable penetration; her passive isn't even that good. Tanks can easily pick up Warden's Mail or Bramble Vest and Ninja Tabi and shut down Kayle's ability to fight them, plus Kayle has weak keystones while tanks have broken keystones.

Kayle isn't kicking out 1000 damage unless she's at 3 items and you're dueling her for some stupid reason.

Kayle has the weakest or one of the weakest heals in the game.

Jayce has Kayle's passive, but better, on his form change which has a ~10 second cooldown. He gets a lot of percent HP damage. He gets an automatic 2.5 AS buff. Jayce gets a lot of CC and the highest ratios in the game. Jayce is twice the champion Kayle is. Kayle gets 2 effects (including damage) per ability that aren't very good effects; Jayce gets like 2-3 effects per ability that are very good and the best fucking ratios.

If my bias on being a Kayle player doesn't allow me to talk about Kayle, then your bias doesn't allow you to talk about Kayle because you are ignorant about Kayle, which means you can't make an argument either or you concede the fact that I should be able to give commentary about champions I play because I am knowledgeable about them.

okamiyasha951 votes

Trynd only has a slow that is conditional and not some point-click abiltiy that does damage, a spin that close gaps or run away, rage that increases auto attack damage and crit chance, and an ult that let's him live a few secs. AS broken as yall think trynd is in which he isn't, kayle is all of trynd except with magic damage added, an upgraded, all-purpose ult, and marksmen range.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Doesn't matter. Tryndamere shouldn't ever be viable because he can auto win the laning phase by chance, such as getting 3 crits in a row and killing you.

Colgate Gator1 votes

So you're saying that everyone should have their toys nerfed instead of Kayle, who has a long history of always abusing whatever she can get her hands on?

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, I'm saying here's a bunch of already broken shit that Kayle is able to use (except Lethal Tempo, which is just only good on Kayle).

okamiyasha951 votes

I mean trynd has 3 shot capabilities, but only on squishy targets who build no armor whatsoever. The only time trynd can get a kill is if the enemy is completely out of position or if he’s playing against another melee champ. At the same time, it’s sooo much easier to stop or take down a trynd than a kayle. CC trynd long enough for his ult to wear off and he’s useless. Kayle has way more kiting potential than trynd who has to literally be on top of a champ to kill them. Face it. Kayle is an upgraded more oppressive version of Trynd. Why do you think they even thought to nerf kayle over trynd If trynd is supposed to do more damage than kayle?

Talestory1 votes

Her meta isn't working since

She's ranged champion who should play like ADC, with some defensive Utilities.

However, she's very slow with 335 basic movement speed where most others are around 340 and above

Also, her weakness in lack of tankiness, and fragile to CC (meanwhile her only CC is her slow with Q)

There are some bad sides on her during this meta as in general.

Top kayle - Lack Tankiness. She has to position herself like ADC. She has to ACT like ADC, and she sucks at freezing lanes

(as of early laning phase, it's hard to call her if she's ranged or not)

She can't really get minions without her E, since she's not that tanky (base armor 27, meanwhile other tankers like Darius: 39, Camile 35)

She's very mana/cast reliant, and she can't really trick on enemies, since all her kits (Q,W,E,R) are very predictable.

Jungle Kayle - There are a lot more junglers who are better than Kayle.

Plus, Kayle can't really counter jungle at low level, since it's hard to 1v1 as Kayle (although you may be fine if you can dodge leesin Q, or somehow kite Udyr, but if get caught by slow movement speed, pretty much dead) -

What I'm trying to say is that.... counter Jungle in early game is somewhat difficult for Kayle

Mid Kayle - Probably the best-fit position for her for this season. However, also fragile to early level gank during this season, especially.

ADC Kayle - Hm.. won't need a full explanation though..
(Basic Attack Range + Managing Mana is crucial for Kayle.)

Support Kayle - VIABLE. viable, but not that great.

Lack CC, Lack heal, Lack in tanking. It's like you have to play as an ADC and as a support at the same time.

Talestory1 votes

All I wish for Kayle is for her to get immune to CC when she's using Ult ON HERSELF

  • and also releases her free from any CC, except Hard CC (fear, stun, charm, etc)

I think making her more free from hard CC would make higher tier players to play Kayle more likely.

I believe her damage kit is pretty much balanced (as she gets items mid-late game; early game is still tough though, compared to other champions in meta during this season 8.10)

but late game, she's fragile due to her weakness against CC and lack in tankiness.

At least, let's get her free from CC with her ult.

Her ult is a definite game changer, but isn't that great if enemies have CC. it only prolongs the time between upcoming death.

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