Riot has no idea how to balance Black Cleaver.

AirKingNeo·Jun 23, 2017·90 votes·20,751 views

Black Cleaver - Testing an internal cooldown on how quickly you can add stacks to an opponent (0.5s at present). Aiming to preserve its impact for slow/regular speed stackers, while making it less dominant on those with sufficiently split up physical damage it gets stacked almost instantly.

This idea right here ruins so many champions who build it. This list isn't limited to these champions, but they'll be the most effected. Sadly, only two of them are noticely too strong Cleaver, Graves and Lucian. This change is going to ruin some champions.

280 Comments

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 201797 votes

who the fuck came up with this idea?

the entire reason cleaver passive works with a stack mechanic without internal cooldown is, to benefit physical damage casters like

Darius Garen Pantheon Renekton

who can stack it up faster than auto attack reliant ranged carries who would be limited by their attack speed.

adding an internal cooldown does completely the opposite of the intent with the item. whats more is, which bruisers exactly are a problem with the current version of cleaver right now? please point me to them. because the only ones who have been problematic with cleaver in recent times were fucking ranged carries.

so how about cutting the bullshit and dancing around the issue and make the item finally melee only? or at least half effective for ranged champions?

WiegrafOfValorJun 23, 20175 votes

Rito: Don't you get it Boi.. this is a ADC item now, only them can stack with max efficiency now.

Sraeg2013Jun 23, 201728 votes

so how about cutting the bullshit and dancing around the issue

Oy, this is Riot Games we are talking about.

They'd rather rework an entire champion around a problematic ability, than to change said ability right away.

Pierce The VealJun 24, 201712 votes

THE ENTIRE POINT OF BLACK CLEAVER WAS TO BE AN AD CASTER ITEM.

WTF RITO.

ElikainJun 24, 20177 votes

Half effective for ranged would be a decent workaround. Riot tried to give it more HP and less damage (to make it worth for Juggernauts and less worth for squishy champs who'd want AD) but if other items pack AD and are good as first purchases, buying BC only makes these squishy champions more tanky to take down while they have the DPS or lifesteal to prolong their stay among the living.

Tagging items with "melee only" requirement would destroy a lot of viable builds for champions.

KloqdqJun 23, 201735 votes

Yes because lets make adcs, the ones that are the problem with the item, the only ones who can use it. Classic balance from the Rito Balance team.

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20171 votes

What? This is a nerf to Marksmen. The ones who build it often have tools to get max stacks in ~1-2 seconds.

JunkοJun 24, 20174 votes

No it isn't. This will simply slightly lower marksmans damage for 2 seconds before it becomes the same.

Meanwhile many bruisers will unload all of their damage in a couple of seconds and then won't benefit from the armor shred.

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20171 votes

It's not nerf to marksmen It just slows down when they get their maximum damage

................................................................................................................................................................................. THAT IS LITERALLY A NERF DON'T JUST DISAGREE FOR THE SAKE OF DISAGREEING YOU SAY IT'S NOT A NERF AND THEN IMMEDIATELY DESCRIBE HOW IT'S A NERF

JunkοJun 24, 20172 votes

It's not a nerf because ADCs are about DPS, not burst damage, more often than not they just have to AA you once more and you still die. Delaying max armor pen stacks by 2.5 seconds doesn't even close to affect ADCs as much as it nerfs actual bruisers like Kled or Renekton and the like who have their damage limited by cooldowns.

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20171 votes

Show the math.

Also for the love of god just say "Yeah, my bad about the 'it's not a nerf to Marksmen.' What I meant to say was that it's not as much as a nerf to Marksmen as it is to Bruisers." Or something along those lines. There are too many people on these boards who will wiggle away from admitting that they said something blatantly wrong.

JunkοJun 24, 20172 votes

Yeah I meant that this nerfs bruisers more than markskman. Sorry, I did word myself wrong.

ShadòwJun 23, 201721 votes

so that basically means it will end up as an ADC item because why not.

SkiasJun 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

so that basically means it will end up as an ADC item because why not.

Actually it makes it worse. MF and Lucian can't stack it as efficiently with their ults.

fantoskiJun 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

so that basically means it will end up as an ADC item because why not.

They all eventually end up as ADC items !

rtbf221651412Jun 23, 201720 votes

Why are they even touching cleaver?

They fucked up the tank update, not the bruisers.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 201718 votes

{quoted}

Why are they even touching cleaver?

They fucked up the tank update, not the bruisers.

well. the tank update also fucked up bruisers, so apparantly the natural reaction is to nerf them some more.

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T20:43:51.154+0000)

is garen supposed to be a melee carry?

supposed to. yes. doesnt really work with what he has, but the idea at least was that hes an anti-carry who carries by killing the largest carry threat on the enemy team.

rtbf221651412Jun 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-23T20:44:39.289+0000)

well. the tank update also fucked up bruisers, so apparantly the natural reaction is to nerf them some more.

supposed to. yes. doesnt really work with what he has, but the idea at least was that hes an anti-carry who carries by killing the largest carry threat on the enemy team.

If you think about it logically....

Black Cleaver means armor shred which = Anti-Tank item and Anti-Armor item.

What I read, and correct me if I am wrong, is that slower damage dealers will benefit more than those stacking attack speed. Therefore, it's basically a buff to bruisers indirectly (unless you are also building item 3091 ) and nerf to those who stack it fast (which is where the buff is).

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20174 votes

{quoted}

If you think about it logically....

Black Cleaver means armor shred which = Anti-Tank item and Anti-Armor item.

What I read, and correct me if I am wrong, is that slower damage dealers will benefit more than those stacking attack speed. Therefore, it's basically a buff to bruisers (unless you are also building ) and nerf to those who stack it fast.

its a nerf to bruisers who deal physical damage in small instances in rapid succession

namely champions like Garen Darius Renekton etc.

cleaver does shit for me, when i get the stacks on the opponent only after my spin has run out. its a straight up nerf for darius too, whos going to ramp up slower and take longer to get people into ult range.

his fast combo with auto attack + w + q to wont work as well anymore.

rtbf221651412Jun 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T22:10:15.443+0000)

its a nerf to bruisers who deal physical damage in small instances in rapid succession

namely champions like etc.

cleaver does shit for me, when i get the stacks on the opponent only after my spin has run out.

Evelynn Ashe Vayne Varus Twitch Tristana Sivir Quinn MissFortune Kayle Kindred KogMaw Lucian Kalista Jinx Ezreal Graves Draven Caitlyn

That may be at most half of the people who are not bruisers who would be affected. So who is it really affecting more?

It means bruisers have to deal with less armor burning. However, they went about this the wrong way.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

That may be at most half of the people who are not bruisers who would be affected. So who is it really affecting more?

i offered an alternative.

turn the armor shred into armor pen per stack against the target. then add the condition that ranged champions only get half the pen per stack.

mechanically the item remains almost the same with the difference, that ranged ad carries get less synergy out of it, its worse when they buy it themselves, and it doesnt affect armor scalings on items and in tank kits, which benefits tanks aswell.

melee champions still get the full benefit and synergy from it.

this way it ONLY affects the champions on that list (except for eve. dont know why shes really there).

rtbf221651412Jun 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T22:19:39.778+0000)

i offered an alternative.

turn the armor shred into armor pen per stack against the target. then add the condition that ranged champions only get half the pen per stack.

this way it ONLY affects the champions on that list (except for eve. dont know why shes really there).

item 3147 eve?

You can't sincerely believe she can't abuse these assassin items.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

eve?

ive never seen this build before and its not a meta build for her. even if it was, shes looking at a rework very soon.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 24, 20171 votes

this nerf, buff tanks class

rtbf221651412Jun 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2017-06-24T02:53:10.350+0000)

this nerf, buff tanks class

I didn't say anything about that. People below me did.

Ionian VulpixJun 24, 201710 votes

Internal Testing. They're still figuring out what they want to do. Give them time.

AirKingNeoJun 24, 201714 votes

If I didn't complain, my voice wouldn't be heard, and the mistake of this nerf would happen and ruin top lane.

It's better to speak up then wait.

KairoptraJun 24, 20173 votes

I agree with what you said in your comment (I honestly don't know enough about the game's inner working to make any of the changes or your post), but my problem is the title; it just seems so unnecessarily rude and hostile. I have no idea if it was your intention to act like you know more than the balance team, or otherwise make it seem like you were insulting their intelligence, but it just came off that way. I think both of us know the community could use a lot less of that.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20177 votes

dealing physical damage to an enemy unit affected by cleaver grants 5% armor penetration (stacks up to 6 times) against the target - halved for ranged

mechanically the only difference is that champions dont actually get their armor numbers reduced and armor scalings on the tanks items and in their kits arent affected.

WOW, that was difficult.

Potato DocJun 24, 20177 votes

internal cooldown is now limited to ranged only melee is not affected.

Boom instantly doing what it should be doing.

RacoonHunterJun 24, 20176 votes

A simpler way to balance cleaver is to make it Melee only. The fact that ranged champions can stack it safer and faster than the melee champions that it was designed for.

then again, these are the same people who don't know how to properly balance Bork.

AhristocatsJun 23, 20175 votes

they all do not deserve to buy it except 2 or 3 champions on your list

riven is literally balanced around it, i'm afraid for her, but she is on the strong side so maybe it's going to be good idk

Big LincolnJun 23, 20179 votes

which ones do "deserve" it then

AhristocatsJun 23, 20172 votes

illaoi darius riven aatrox black cleaver should be the anti-tank item of melee carries

divers like kled and renekton have no business into killing tanks ranged champions like lucian ashe jayce, fcking gtfo

Big LincolnJun 23, 201711 votes

garen doesn't?

AhristocatsJun 23, 20171 votes

doesn't matter if he deserves to buy it or not, it won't change anything to his balance situation because he reached the deepest level of garbage

is garen supposed to be a melee carry? i don't think so unlike other juggernauts he doesn't bring a high dps, and can burst a squishy asap if he's in range

garen's kit is a mess to know if he should use black cleaver or not

BIH DiamondJun 23, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Teridax68Jun 23, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIH Diamond,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gBZKBwA2,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T22:56:01.213+0000)

You main darius. You don't deserve your rank, stop speaking

I hope you realize the comment you made has no relevance to the conversation and is a pure ad hominem attack. Please do not do anything of this kind in the future, it does not contribute positively in any way to discussion, and only generates antagonism.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 23, 20177 votes

Total agreement with you there. It's a bruiser item, and most of those champs aren't bruisers.

Biggest person on that list for me is Talon .

In an ideal world, lethality would be the stat that assassins take, which SHOULD NOT be good with the %pen of cleaver. Just shouldn't, imo. Those things should serve two different groups of champions. Black cleaver is too general and must be changed.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Total agreement with you there. It's a bruiser item, and most of those champs aren't bruisers.

Biggest person on that list for me is .

In an ideal world, lethality would be the stat that assassins take, which SHOULD NOT be good with the %pen of cleaver. Just shouldn't, imo. Those things should serve two different groups of champions. Black cleaver is too general and must be changed.

this change is not going to make the item more beneficial to bruisers compared to the other champions who buy it.

its just going to make it slightly worse for everybody else, and much worse for them.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20172 votes

It's a bruiser and a skirmisher item.

Yet also it's an AD caster/assassin item and they're all balanced around it. Also keep in mind that AD assassins would be blown up in an instant without an HP, which none of their items get (Unlike AP assassins with Protobelt, Hourglass). It's like saying we remove Windspeaker's Blessing. Great, every heal/shield champion is drastically worse since they're balanced around having that.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 23, 20174 votes

Eh, I disagree with your analogy though.

Removing windspeaker's is inherently different because windspeaker's is designed specifically for the champs that use it.

Black Cleaver was designed for Juggernauts, and other classes are making use of it. That isn't the same thing. Like I said, in an ideal world, BC wouldn't be good on assassins or adcs, because it causes other problems. I agree they are balanced around it now, and that's what I have a problem with. That shouldn't be.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20171 votes

Funny, because Black Cleaver was actually designed for AD caster champions.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 24, 20172 votes

see Rioter here

AirKingNeoJun 24, 20171 votes

That neither proves nor disproved the original design intent of Black Cleaver.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 24, 20173 votes

Well, original design intent isn't really relevant, imo.

We're talking about Black Cleaver's role NOW. And that role is for Juggernauts, mainly. It's not for assassins. Lethality is the stat for assassins.

Other AD casters are fine to build it, when appropriate, but it isn't really intended for them anymore. Hence my earlier comment.

Windspeaker's isn't being used on anyone that it's current design isn't intended to support. BC is a different issue, partly BECAUSE it has a complicated past about who is supposed to use it.

SolidariusJun 24, 20172 votes

I dont know where your geting BC is for "juggernaunts" from, the item is clearly intended to be for all melee classes to reduce armor/ help kill squishys even faster.

ADC are the only ones abusing this item because they have RANGE, at least a darius/wukong/ any other melee class has to be on and next to you for this item to function,

while a MF/Lucian can auto attack you from RANGE and apply the stacks. its ok for item 3035 to be both melee and range because its not a "stack" system.