how exactly does Jax have a weak early?

Moody P·Feb 2, 2019·63 votes·18,408 views

his early base stats are not noticeably worse than any other fighters

his cooldowns are lower straight off the bat than most other fighters, especially his counter strike when other significant spells of similar caliber have 20+ second CD to start with

And his early numbers are hardly lacking

also mixed damage which is much stronger than leaning in one direction in the early game

What exactly do I exploit here? How am I expected to bully him out of lane when he has his rotations up more than I do? The only thing I can bank on is my jungle ganking or him being bad

74 Comments

ThefrostyvikingFeb 2, 201912 votes

Toplane weak seems defined by the question "does Darius/fiora beat it early" or "does ranged beat it outa lane".

Jax does get beaten by grasp Fiora so he seems to be on the "weak early" list.

5StackUltOneShotFeb 2, 201910 votes

I swear every post you make is about toplane. Which is good, cause Jax is overpowered as fuck.

He needs across the board nerfs on every aspect of his early game, he scales way too hard into late game to almost be a lane bully early game

Moody PFeb 2, 201927 votes

..well yeah, I'm a top lane player. Why would I talk at length about roles I don't like playing?

BigFBearFeb 2, 20195 votes

If you are a toplaner why do you talk about jungle in that other thread and that it is/was fucking "easy" etc.? Lawl.

SyrileFeb 2, 201910 votes

Because every five minutes you can survive one of Jax's all-ins. Sadly, the other 4 minutes and 59 seconds, you have to hide in the fountain. :p

MarshbouyFeb 2, 20198 votes

"weak early game" is a lie on most late game scaling champions.

ValiantKillerFeb 2, 20193 votes

{quoted}

"weak early game" is a lie on most late game scaling champions.

Nasus Jax Yasuo

ValyrianBladeFeb 2, 20197 votes

His weakness is that his whole kit is melee.

Sure, someone like Hecarim top would have a hell of a time with him (having weaker stats/abilities all around while also being full melee). However most top laners have some form of poke/range. You harass him with that, and he can't do anything back other than all-in.

Since his only option is to all in, you can expect it. So either he weathers a storm of poke (respecting your jungler), or he goes all in on you (burning his leap to get on you) and dies if your jungler is nearby because he burned his escape. In low elo it may not matter (your jungler won't think to camp top, and you'll probably stand and fight even if your jungler isn't there instead of disengaging), however at reasonable elo that's your counter.

Wolfalisk318Feb 2, 201962 votes

{quoted}

His weakness is that his whole kit is melee.

lmao

ValyrianBladeFeb 2, 20195 votes

{quoted}

lmao

What, do you disagree?

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 2, 201922 votes

So what if I only play melee champions only and don't play any ranged or one with sufficient poke?

This is the same concept as "Just CC Yi" what if I don't play CC champions do I just accept the fact he has no counter play towards non-cc champions?

KadexeFeb 2, 20194 votes

Master Yi has a lot of counterplay, CC is just the most obvious one. Master Yi is also countered by stealth (his abilities are targeted, he can't touch invisible champions), mobility (if you can run as fast as him, then he can't autoattack you properly), shields, healing, (true damage can't cut through shields), and untargetability (that means spells like Playful Trickster, but also items like Zhonya's hourglass. Hourglass especially fucks him a lot).

TheSingularityFeb 2, 20196 votes

his abilities are targeted, he can't touch invisible champions

Few and far between

his abilities are targeted, he can't touch invisible champions

Few and far between

shields (true damage can't cut through shields)

Inaccurate statement

healing

Assuming you can heal 2.7k true damage every 2.5 seconds

untargetability

again few and far between. And most can't attack while untargetable.

koshkyraFeb 3, 20198 votes

You realize that shields, cc, invisibility, healing and untargetability are counterplay to literally everything in the game?

General Esdeath Feb 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

lmao

Buff Riven, Darius, Aatrox, Nasus 2k19

Chembaron YamadaFeb 3, 20192 votes

Camille She needs heavy buffs as well.

FOR JUSTICEFeb 2, 201928 votes

{quoted}

His weakness is that his whole kit is melee.

Sure, someone like Hecarim top would have a hell of a time with him (having weaker stats/abilities all around while also being full melee). However most top laners have some form of poke/range. You harass him with that, and he can't do anything back other than all-in.

Since his only option is to all in, you can expect it. So either he weathers a storm of poke (respecting your jungler), or he goes all in on you (burning his leap to get on you) and dies if your jungler is nearby because he burned his escape. In low elo it may not matter (your jungler won't think to camp top, and you'll probably stand and fight even if your jungler isn't there instead of disengaging), however at reasonable elo that's your counter.

problem is most of the ranged harass champions you speak of are squishy, so all he needs is bone plating and his e to get on top of you, and since his e also blocks autos all he has to do is

e windup -> q -> auto -> e Stun -> W reset -> walk away

there isnt much counterplay to that combo tbh, no matter how big your own minion wave is. not to mention you'll be using much more mana then he is, so all he needs to survive is item 2033

and his "whole kit being melee" isnt exactly a good argument considering so are his opponents.

ValyrianBladeFeb 2, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wwAUUKtG,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-02-02T16:00:29.784+0000)

problem is most of the ranged harass champions you speak of are squishy, so all he needs is bone plating and his e to get on top of you, and since his e also blocks autos all he has to do is

e windup -> q -> auto -> e Stun -> W reset -> walk away

there isnt much counterplay to that combo tbh, no matter how big your own minion wave is. not to mention you'll be using much more mana then he is, so all he needs to survive is

and his "whole kit being melee" isnt exactly a good argument considering so are his opponents.

Simply untrue...

Meta top laners:

Riven: all melee, agreed (but also able to handle Jax since she's an AD caster)
Darius: has range on his Q and E
Urgot: has range AA and isn't squishy
Sion: has ranged abilities
Renekton: Basically all melee but again is an AD caster that can handle Jax
Fiora: All melee but her Riposte hard counters Jax's E
Vlad: Is ranged and not super squishy
Nasus: Has his E (not to mention he can outscale Jax anyways)
Aatrox: Two of his Q's have some range, as well as his chain
Irelia: Her W and E have range
Garen: is all melee but can stand his ground
Jayce: is ranged and not super squishy
Kled: has a couple ranged abilities (bear trap on a rope, pistol)
Yorick: has ghouls and the maiden
Akali: has ranged abilities
Teemo: is ranged
Malphite: has ranged Q
Tryndamere: is also all melee, but again can stand his ground against Jax
Poppy: is also all melee, but again can stand her ground against Jax (and deny his engage with her W anyways)
Gangplank: Q
Ornn: Q
Illaoi: Her tentacles
Kennen: is ranged
Camille: her W
Viktor: is ranged
Shen: is all melee but can also prevent Jax's autos and likewise stands his ground
Pantheon: Q
Rengar: Has his bola. I've made it to #31 on the list (skipping Sylas, sorted by plat+ play rate) and he's the first that my argument doesn't really apply to (however with his mobility from bushes with minions, he can bait out Jax's e and avoid him until ready to engage on him).
Rumble: Q and E
Singed: Poison
Gnar: is ranged
Vayne: is ranged
Mordekaiser: Probably the second to not have my argument apply, being all melee himself. It probably comes to skill though, whether Jax avoids the third Q with his E, or Morde baits out the E and lands the third Q after it expires.
Cho'gath: has ranged on all abilities
Maokai: has range on Q (which can also knock Jax back from him if Jax tries to Q on him), and E
Lissandra: is ranged
Mundo: Q
Quinn: is ranged
Volibear: yet another all melee that probably gets dicked by Jax, but again has his W execute, and extra health from passive, to try to survive for a jungle gank.
Ryze: is ranged
Swain: is ranged
Wukong: all melee, probably dicked by Jax. HOWEVER he's the 2nd lowest pick rate in the role AND has the highest win rate overall.
Olaf: Q

Literally just listed every champion that plays top lane enough to make it onto U.gg's list. Of 46, there are FOUR that are all-melee and would probably get dicked for just trying to farm. There are a further 7 that are all melee kits but can stand up to Jax in a 1v1 duel early game.

That's under 10% of champions that just can't beat Jax early, and under 25% of picks top lane that my claim of his "weakness" being he's all melee doesn't really apply to because they're all melee as well. That leaves 35 of 46 top laners who have range on at least one ability - to either poke or farm with until they can get a gank to abuse Jax trying to all in onto them.

Boards mentality though is just to downvote because they're low elo and of course they're just going to stand and fight Jax as an Akali instead of poking him and avoiding long engages...

FOR JUSTICEFeb 2, 201915 votes

{quoted}

Simply untrue...

Meta top laners:

Riven: all melee, agreed (but also able to handle Jax since she's an AD caster)

riven loses until she gets her shield ability, and loses again once he buys sheen

Darius: has range on his Q and E

brings him close enough for jax to fight (as darius has to walk forward) and since it brings him to his face, darius wont heal.

Urgot: has range AA and isn't squishy

agreed, ya got me on this one

Sion: has ranged abilities

the second he charges q you e leapstrike, walk away before he can throw a minion or sth

Renekton: Basically all melee but again is an AD caster that can handle Jax

assuming renek hits level 3 first, then yes 100% agreed. if not jax wins actually

Fiora: All melee but her Riposte hard counters Jax's E

fioras riposte window is smaller then jax's counterstrike window, so while technically correct, its not actually a hard counter at all, this is still in jax's favor regardless, UNLESS she has grasp to help heal.

Vlad: Is ranged and not super squishy

agreed

Nasus: Has his E (not to mention he can outscale Jax anyways)

armor pen means nothing if you cant actually hit the auto tho, so the farthest this goes is both go even considering jax can leapstrike to an allied minion the second nasus withers/ults. all jax has to do is build a bramble somewhere and nasus cant even lifesteal from q tbh.

Aatrox: Two of his Q's have some range, as well as his chain

he busted tho, legit the only other one to beat him is urgot

Irelia: Her W and E have range

both have high mana costs, and since her ult no longer disarms shes not even a counter to jax anymore. jax wins this hands down.

Garen: is all melee but can stand his ground

garen cant q and the silence wont go through, jax wins this matchup, although garen wins the sustain game until he gets outscaled by sheen

Jayce: is ranged and not super squishy

depends on his ability to land empowered q, if not jax still wins the trade

Kled: has a couple ranged abilities (bear trap on a rope, pistol)

if he's using pistol hes already dismounted and already in danger of dying to jax. he can pull him into bear trap, but if jax uses E theres nothing else kled does in the trade, except now he's in between jax and his own minions

Yorick: has ghouls and the maiden

pre 6, yorick has to land his e in order to send his ghouls to jax. both counter strike and mourning mist have a mana cost of 50, but jax has both a higher mana regen and a higher base mana pool, therefore the only time yorick can actually harass is the 4 seconds gap between his counterstrike vs yoricks mark is on cooldown. both start corrupting pot, so therefore jax wins the sustain matchup.

Akali: has ranged abilities

if she uses shroud well, then i guess she could win, just not in a direct 1v1 once he gets mercs + sheen

Teemo: is ranged

can beat jax, ya got me there

Malphite: has ranged Q

youre sending a tank into a conq bruiser lane, nuff said

Tryndamere: is also all melee, but again can stand his ground against Jax

NOPE! again, counterstrike blocks autos so if jax is smart he'll take ignite and simply poke and disengage before he all ins, due to the fact trynd is ONLY auto based.

Poppy: is also all melee, but again can stand her ground against Jax (and deny his engage with her W anyways)

yes

Gangplank: Q

gangplank is squishier

Ornn: Q

Illaoi: Her tentacles

yeah she can smoke him

Kennen: is ranged

same

Camille: her W

this is 100% a skill matchup, this one can actually go either way, but is heavily in jax's favor because her cooldowns are MUCH longer, and shes a primarily auto based champion.

Viktor: is ranged

just nerfed out of toplane

Shen: is all melee but can also prevent Jax's autos and likewise stands his ground

leaving jax alone plays to his win condition, which is allowing him to scale to splitpush at 6

Pantheon: Q

yeah he can prolly kill jax

Rengar: Has his bola. I've made it to #31 on the list (skipping Sylas, sorted by plat+ play rate) and he's the first that my argument doesn't really apply to (however with his mobility from bushes with minions, he can bait out Jax's e and avoid him until ready to engage on him).

yes

Rumble: Q and E

yes

Singed: Poison

yes, but damage reduction on e, plus mercs, makes singed lose in the short trades before an all in.

Gnar: is ranged

gnar gets completely destroyed by jax in every way, shape and form, not even sure why you bothered listing gnar

Vayne: is ranged

vayne cant proc her 3 hit passive the second he hits level 3

Mordekaiser: Probably the second to not have my argument apply, being all melee himself. It probably comes to skill though, whether Jax avoids the third Q with his E, or Morde baits out the E and lands the third Q after it expires.

AoE damage reduction, plus free disengage (morde is immobile enough for jax to literally walk up)

Cho'gath: has ranged on all abilities

this is actually a pretty decent matchup for cho

Maokai: has range on Q (which can also knock Jax back from him if Jax tries to Q on him), and E

Lissandra: is ranged

lissandra is busted cause aftershock, its not that shes strong, he just cant actually trade back, but she still wins none the less, so ill concede this one

Mundo: Q

all jax needs is some kind of gw and mundo is shut down.

Quinn: is ranged

is squishy enough to be flat out all inned at level 3 with one rotation.

Volibear: yet another all melee that probably gets dicked by Jax, but again has his W execute, and extra health from passive, to try to survive for a jungle gank.

volibear wins a 1v1 up until about level 13, but thats not exactly early so ill concede this one

Ryze: is ranged

ryze wins up until jax gets a second point into his ult, and will then be destroyed. but also not early, so you got this one too.

Swain: is ranged

swain wins, yes

Wukong: all melee, probably dicked by Jax. HOWEVER he's the 2nd lowest pick rate in the role AND has the highest win rate overall.

wukong can prolly jump -> auto + reset then stealth away, so i guess this is correct

Olaf: Q

once his q is on cd jax can just look to trade then.

so while you pointed out some champions that do have some range as you stated, they can STILL in one way or another get cucked by jax, making the range not matter. legit of your "45 champions listed" only 6 can flat out beat jax early

ValyrianBladeFeb 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wwAUUKtG,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-02T17:51:48.335+0000)

riven loses until she gets her shield ability, and loses again once he buys sheen

brings him close enough for jax to fight (as darius has to walk forward) and since it brings him to his face, darius wont heal.

agreed, ya got me on this one

the second he charges q you e leapstrike, walk away before he can throw a minion or sth

assuming renek hits level 3 first, then yes 100% agreed. if not jax wins actually

fioras riposte window is smaller then jax's counterstrike window, so while technically correct, its not actually a hard counter at all, this is still in jax's favor regardless, UNLESS she has grasp to help heal.

agreed

armor pen means nothing if you cant actually hit the auto tho, so the farthest this goes is both go even considering jax can leapstrike to an allied minion the second nasus withers/ults. all jax has to do is build a bramble somewhere and nasus cant even lifesteal from q tbh.

he busted tho, legit the only other one to beat him is urgot

both have high mana costs, and since her ult no longer disarms shes not even a counter to jax anymore. jax wins this hands down.

garen cant q and the silence wont go through, jax wins this matchup, although garen wins the sustain game until he gets outscaled by sheen

depends on his ability to land empowered q, if not jax still wins the trade

if he's using pistol hes already dismounted and already in danger of dying to jax. he can pull him into bear trap, but if jax uses E theres nothing else kled does in the trade, except now he's in between jax and his own minions

pre 6, yorick has to land his e in order to send his ghouls to jax. both counter strike and mourning mist have a mana cost of 50, but jax has both a higher mana regen and a higher base mana pool, therefore the only time yorick can actually harass is the 4 seconds gap between his counterstrike vs yoricks mark is on cooldown. both start corrupting pot, so therefore jax wins the sustain matchup.

if she uses shroud well, then i guess she could win, just not in a direct 1v1 once he gets mercs + sheen

can beat jax, ya got me there

youre sending a tank into a conq bruiser lane, nuff said

NOPE! again, counterstrike blocks autos so if jax is smart he'll take ignite and simply poke and disengage before he all ins, due to the fact trynd is ONLY auto based.

yes

gangplank is squishier

yeah she can smoke him

same

this is 100% a skill matchup, this one can actually go either way, but is heavily in jax's favor because her cooldowns are MUCH longer, and shes a primarily auto based champion.

just nerfed out of toplane

leaving jax alone plays to his win condition, which is allowing him to scale to splitpush at 6

yeah he can prolly kill jax

yes

yes

yes, but damage reduction on e, plus mercs, makes singed lose in the short trades before an all in.

gnar gets completely destroyed by jax in every way, shape and form, not even sure why you bothered listing gnar

vayne cant proc her 3 hit passive the second he hits level 3

AoE damage reduction, plus free disengage (morde is immobile enough for jax to literally walk up)

this is actually a pretty decent matchup for cho

lissandra is busted cause aftershock, its not that shes strong, he just cant actually trade back, but she still wins none the less, so ill concede this one

all jax needs is some kind of gw and mundo is shut down.

is squishy enough to be flat out all inned at level 3 with one rotation.

volibear wins a 1v1 up until about level 13, but thats not exactly early so ill concede this one

ryze wins up until jax gets a second point into his ult, and will then be destroyed. but also not early, so you got this one too.

swain wins, yes

wukong can prolly jump -> auto + reset then stealth away, so i guess this is correct

once his q is on cd jax can just look to trade then.

so while you pointed out some champions that do have some range as you stated, they can STILL in one way or another get cucked by jax, making the range not matter. legit of your "45 champions listed" only 6 can flat out beat jax early

Thanks for actually responding instead of just laughing like everyone else.

The point I'm trying to make is that Jax needs to all in. If he q onto you, he either has a long trade until he can q out, or is all in, or gets return damage as he backs out.

So in general, his win condition is your jungle not being there. Yes, in solo queue it makes Jax kind of busted, but it is a real weakness. A decent jungle knows he can get easy kills on Jax in most matchups, and once the top has a lead they can beat Jax for a while until he scales.

I don't mean to deny that he's strong/ broken. Just that op asked for his weakness and well, that's it.

HopeStartsWithUFeb 2, 20193 votes

The thing is, his E is a literal cockblock for the majority of the toplane pool. Even if he all ins you you can just try to disengage (he can jump on you) or just have to take the damage while he is pretty much safe in his E.

Even the Riven matchup is more like a skill matchup in which the Riven has to show that she isn't bad. Riven heavily relies on her passive to deal damage at early stages, if they are blocked she won't do much to jax. Her Q base damage is pretty low.

RazelthFeb 2, 20192 votes

Riven doesn't lose when Jax gets sheen lol. If anything, she wants him to rush a sheen so she can easily burst him down. So much misinformation in wow.

BoilTheOilFeb 2, 20192 votes

You do realize that if he Q's on to you early game thats free damage onto him right? Jayce could E-Q W melee form Q then E him away and win the trade. Vladimir could E Q and could also dodge the stun with his w if he wanted. Kennen E Q W stun auto. You understand what I mean, ranged champions fuck jax hard early game.

FOR JUSTICEFeb 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that if he Q's on to you early game thats free damage onto him right? could E-Q W melee form Q then E him away and win the trade. could E Q and could also dodge the stun with his w if he wanted. E Q W stun auto. You understand what I mean, ranged champions fuck jax hard early game.

i listed why they can win in an earlier post already. the point being though aside from those 3 most others lose by level 6.

BoilTheOilFeb 2, 20192 votes

Akali Aatrox Darius Urgot Sion Renekton Lissandra

EDIT: nvm

PhearBunnyFeb 2, 20197 votes

The same way Nasus has weak early game. With imagination, all things are possible.

PerfectPowerFeb 2, 20196 votes

What exactly do I exploit here? How am I expected to bully him out of lane when he has his rotations up more than I do? The only thing I can bank on is my jungle ganking or him being bad

Jax pretty much can't win a fight without using E unless he's ahead, he has no poke, and his kit is straight up bad pre-6 in terms of damage and survivability/sustain.

Your statement about his rotations being up more than yours are isn't very true. Let me make some comparisons:

Jax - E cool down is 16 seconds rank 1 and he doesn't rank it up until level 14.

Urgot - W cool down is 17 seconds and his E cool down is 16. Plus, he has the poke from Q every 12 seconds rank 1.

Fiora - W cool down is 24 (8 second difference is pretty big) and E is 13.

Renekton - E cool down is 18 seconds (2 seconds isn't a big deal) and W is 13. He has a decent gap to get a stun in. Plus, he can dodge Jax stun with E if he plays it right.

Darius - Sure, his E cool down is also 24 seconds like Fiora, but his W cool down is 7 and his Q cool down is 9, allowing for easy trades when Jax's E is down.

Illaoi - E cool down is 16 seconds, the same as Jax's, so she doesn't have a very hard time.

Never mind all the champions that just shit on Jax, either because they're AP, tanks, or have really good CC:

Vladimir Aatrox Jayce Sion Riven Rumble Kennen Ryze Singed Malphite Lissandra

Now, I'm not saying these lanes are unwinnable for Jax, but they're damn hard if the person knows what they're doing.

Side note, can you not use a level 7 account on the boards? It's hard to put up an argument if I can't see your rank, the champions you play, your previous games against Jax, and your games playing as Jax.

Meep ManFeb 2, 20193 votes

Same way ranged champions are less durable than Melee, despite the health difference at Level 18 usually only being about 100-300 health, armor difference of maybe 6-14, and mr difference of about 12.

PlsBuffMyMainFeb 2, 20193 votes

Low damage without items, no sustain, no range, no waveclear, easily bullied out by meta top laners.

Moon MomFeb 3, 20193 votes

Jax is weak early game because he's item dependent. What kind of question is this?

ExxonVFeb 3, 20193 votes

What do you mean "his early numbers are hardly lacking". None of his abilities do damage without items. Play around his E and almost anyone beats him early. Most of the time people struggle with jax it's because they go on him while his E is up, force him to use E to take creeps without taking trade damage and then fight him after its done.

Cotten Eyed JoeFeb 3, 20193 votes

His E is on a 12 second CD level 1. You lose trades to anyone without your passive fully stacked up. You lose to all ranged matchups and most bruisers and melees, with the exception of irelia and a few others. You can't all in without your E, which as stated before comes up ever 12 seconds. Meaning if someone baits out your E, you now have to play defensive for 12 seconds. The fact that your items all are extremely expensive to build, the fact that certain champs completely shut you down, like Fiora and Quinn.

Slade25Feb 4, 20191 votes

It's 16 seconds level 1 wtf

Cotten Eyed JoeFeb 6, 20191 votes

K 16 seconds, meaning that its even worse for him then

XhaidenFeb 3, 20192 votes

The issue with Jax is actually Divisions related. There's a HUGE difference between the way it's played (how efficient) - from one division to the next (Silver and Platinum for example).

SociaI JusticeFeb 3, 20192 votes

what champion loses early game to jax outside of pre 6 nasus and ranged tops?

SucctionFeb 3, 20191 votes

Irelia, Camille, Fiora if you don't 50/50 counterstrike, can't think of many others though. Mainly just squishy AA based ones.

SociaI JusticeFeb 3, 20191 votes

take grasp on literally any of those 3 and you will absolutely shit on jax

Raid Boss MordeFeb 3, 20191 votes

Mordekaiser counterstrike blocks your Q and reduces your W and E damage. You also can't chase him or run away if he decides to fight you

SociaI JusticeFeb 3, 20191 votes

i mean i ain't no morde pro but i feel like his supposed to be mostly bot sometimes mid laner now? think morde still beats jax in lane till like level 9 anyways.

King LividFeb 3, 20191 votes

Cancel your Q animation with either your E or your W so he can't react to the first hit. He will then press E, so use the second Q hit on a minion (just to get some shield and avoid losing out on the third hit). Eat the stun, he's not gonna be able to kill you if you have ur W ticking or you E'd right before it. Stun wears off third Q him and you win.

Consider taking grasp as mentioned by someone else above

SociaI JusticeFeb 6, 20191 votes

its funny seeing a bronze morde main giving tips to a d1 morde main lol, not that you're wrong about a lot but the jax won't stick around for you to proc your w or your 3rd Q after his stun in competent elo.

Cotten Eyed JoeFeb 6, 20191 votes

Almost every ranged laner wins against Jax.

Darius and almost all bruisers

ShrîkeFeb 4, 20192 votes

Take away his ward jumping. Why is he allowed to have this? He doesn't need it for his kit to function like lee so get rid of it. Nothing more frustrating than trying to all in him and he ward jumps away saving his flash, actual cancer.

SexualNutsFeb 4, 20192 votes

I can answer for you if you want a realistic, logical answer. If Jax was strong early game then his winrate would be 60% ish because we all know his mid-late is among the best of all champions.

He has no sustain, shield or damage negation outside of his E (with a 16 second CD) and relies entirely on runes/items for this. Mages and ranged champions can walk all over Jax in the early game. His cooldowns are low, but do little damage and use a lot of mana - usually meaning he needs to spend a chunk of gold on that corrupting potion and can still go OOM in an active lane. A lot of his damage come from items and levels (for instance his ult passive damage with his later attack speed). He mobility and agency is low early game (1 leap as opposed to other similar champions with multiple dashes or move speed buffs). Again this means he struggles against ranged. His all-in at early levels is weaker than other similar melee champs (Darius, Renek, Illaoi etc).

All of the above is true. HOWEVER, none are glaring weaknesses so they can be worked around. Jax used to have HARD counters like Renek and Malph and tanks - but with conqueror he can get past malphites armor and he can now dodge reneks stun.

A lot of the problem is conqueror and essence reaver. That's because even when Jax goes behind in lane, which he does most of the time, he is able to scale massively after an item or two and that is when you see him melting people.

His base stats used to be much better because of how limited his kit is early. But thanks to runes and items he is even stronger now in the early-mid than he used to be despite the early game nerfs.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 2, 20191 votes

I don't remember Jax ever being known as a champ with a bad early game. He's had counters or been generally weak but never been a champ that is specifically weak in the early game.

Moody PFeb 3, 20191 votes

Well, shouldn't he? He out scales most other fighters and top laners quite hard.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 4, 20191 votes

Ehhh.... I'd say he'd need to be reworked before we could decide on that since he's part of the "generic fighter" club at the moment. I'd rather he be reworked to have a more defined identity first.