Can SA Kayn get no movement penalty after using Q.

Clint Orris··75 votes·3,069 views

That little pause he does after using Q is the worst feeling in world.

99 Comments

Ionian Vulpix31 votes

Going to vote no. His Q is a strong ability, damage and movement (even over small walls). There should be some drawback to using abilities, a risk and reward. The risk is the spin he's locked into.

Maligaro Spike10 votes

SA is a squishy assassin with no escape after his initial combo, having a smoother Q will help him feel less than a poor man's darkin version, ofc Darkin must keep his movement penalty

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

He already has less movement penalty than the darkin, because of his W. And a well played SA Kayn is damn slippery already. I don't see the need to remove his penalty.

The "no escape" is not entirely true. He can go in with his E, using his ult to wait out the cd and then use E to get out again.

Maligaro Spike2 votes

his E cd is very high for almost all game, if you go in with it, you have to stay in the fight for like 10+ seconds and using it for disengaging is often useless because of 1,5 secs max duration when in combat.

Another change might be making his E last 3 secs in combat so it can be used as an actual escape when you have it off cd (so it means you were good enough to gap close without it or survive 10+ seconds)

Some Noob Dude9 votes

{quoted}

He already has less movement penalty than the darkin, because of his W. And a well played SA Kayn is damn slippery already. I don't see the need to remove his penalty.

The "no escape" is not entirely true. He can go in with his E, using his ult to wait out the cd and then use E to get out again.

The E cd is too long for that.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Idk who you've been playing but it's definitely not. I regularly have my E back up by the time I've ulted and came out of someone.

Late game this is true in the truest sense of in-combo-out but earlier on it's more like you E into a fight, blow your load except ult and then save ult for when you actually need to--which is typically a few autos later before you are gonna die--and then ult and by the time the 2.5 ult seconds are up you have your E back.

It's never useful though, usually just means that you're gonna get hit the moment you activate it--especially since your ult is never the killing blow and you have to QW one more time before leaving.

ninjaroxas3 votes

His e goes down to about 7 seconds with 45% cdr. Dieing in 5 seconds is very easy

LoliKnight13 votes

I see your worst feeling in the world and I raise you a three word horror story.

No Toilet Paper

But jokes apart, yeah, riven isnt locked into anything during her dash. In fact , she can use her entire kit during her E. At least allow Kayn to not be pause locked after Q.

Clint Orris9 votes

{quoted}

I see your worst feeling in the world and I raise you a three word horror story.

No Toilet Paper

But jokes apart, yeah, riven isnt locked into anything during her dash. In fact , she can use her entire kit during her E. At least allow Kayn to not be pause locked after Q.

No Toilet Paper .....after tacobell

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Riven doesn't do damage during her dash and no she't can't. She still waits until the end of the duration, she just has her animation canceling

NiceTryVi2 votes

Which, by the way, is bug abuse that Riot refuses to patch.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

At this point, it's not a bug nor is she abusing it. It's a mechanic for her now, and one that makes her more balance-able.

Sraeg20138 votes

one that makes her more balance-able

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/897/722/a52.gif

Master animation cancelling and kill everybody except the tank within one second or don't and feed horribly.

Yeah, great balance there.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Better than having Riven with her current kit being unable to cancel her animations, but have even bigger numbers. It's a steep mastery curve, but it's a healthier one than the alternative.

Sraeg20133 votes

That'd force her out of her full AD assassin-like gameplay pattern into a bruiser role she was intended to be.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

I think Riot is a better judge at what she's intended to be, and seeing how they want to keep animation canceling, that's what she's intended to be.

Clint Orris9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvE94drI,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-13T16:34:25.859+0000)

I think Riot is a better judge at what she's intended to be, and seeing how they want to keep animation canceling, that's what she's intended to be.

Oh yea because look how great these champions are.

Azir Gutted because of cancerous kit Mordekaiser Reworked and then gutted because of cancerous kit Rengar after all this time he STILL one shots from stealth. Skarner reworked and then gutted Leblanc because we all wanted her to be a kit mage Zac LOL Ryze rework numberrr.........? Aatrox getting reworked because riot knew what they wanted the first time right?

I'm not trying to be negative but even riot doesn't know what they want their champs to be.

CithriaC3 votes

Riven was based on those street fighter games, she can animation cancel and do combos, but she has low regen compared to other champs which in fighter games they have none. (Arcade skin was a reference)

Arakadia3 votes

Is this a fun fact? Doesn't seem very related on what Riot wants their champions to be. It is known that Riven was based off this stuff, but that doesn't effect if she's a bruiser or glass cannon burster.

Sraeg20133 votes

Unless specified otherwise cancelling is an unintended by-product of the coding.

Slapping a "feature" on top of a bug isn't going to fool a lot of people.

TS Media2 votes

It was specified that riot supports the riven cancels... They patched out any new cancels that she got, however, they did manage to fuck up somewhere along the lines when they patched out moon walking. Which I have a gripe to pick with them for as I'm about to make a thread on it now.

Started off as a bug, ended as a feature. She's ever since been balanced around her cancels. That's why her damage is sub-par compared to everyone else.

Arakadia5 votes

Riven does not have subpar damage.

Arakadia1 votes

Lol, people actually believe Riven doesn't have subpar damage? She takes extreme advantage of dancing around fights and doing short trades/sustaining in fights with her shield. Compare her early spikes/damage to someone like Irelia or even fiora or akali/camille, Jax or any other meta top. You have a better chance surviving a riven that's jumping on your adc over anyone else.

Not much to say here except I disagree.

She takes extreme precision and timing to get things done right and anyone that thinks she's a steam roll champion is delusional. Half the people that people Riven will tell you:

This isn't pertinent. No one was talking about skill. Or I wasn't, and I was who you replied to. A very difficult champion still can be unfair or OP and a champion being hard to play doesn't mean its okay. As shown with Azir.

"If you want to effectively climb, then don't play Riven. If you want to have fun, then play her". Her damage is subpar. Her kit is subpar. Her fun value is spectacular. Riven is all about cheese and abusing missteps. If you don't misstep, Riven is gonna have a hard time snowballing. And if you have a good team comp, then her only threat is split pushing. Have someone who can match her splitting... GG Riven.

I've never heard this from a Riven player. However I do see extremely skilled and high elo people playing tons of Riven.

Arakadia2 votes

No animation canceling makes her very difficult to balance. The reason being that a bad to mediocre Riven is going to be playing so much more different then a skilled riven that has hours of practice. You cannot balance Riven around both.

Although I'm a little scared as to what she would be without animation canceling. Removing such power would require buffs which would probably make her pretty brain dead and tanky.

NiceTryVi2 votes

Except for the fact that riot explicitly said it is a bug they specifically let exist?

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

And is therefore now a mechanic.

NiceTryVi1 votes

No, it isn't. It is a bug. It was an unintended result of the coding that riot didnt want to fix because for some reason, they decided a manaless champion who is therefore only regulated by their cooldowns and animation speeds, needed not only stupidly low cooldowns, but also a way to skip animations. Sounds fair to me. Everyone else that has a AA reset has a fair cd on that reset. Riven? Permanently up. Yeah, that doesn't sound like bug abuse at all, you're completely right. 100% fair.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Riot has embraced the bug as a mechanic. It keeps her numbers low. Imagine a Riven who has even bigger numbers, but can't animation cancel. Higher base damages, better scalings, bigger shield.

Riven has a lot of power pumped into Animation canceling, which keeps her other numbers lower. It's a mechanic now, like it or not, that's what Riot agrees it is.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Or, how about riot fixes the bug and keeps here numbers the same. She has over a 52% winrate, she isn't suffering at all. Remove the bug abuse in her kit, she will come back down to 50% problem solved.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

You're really underestimating just how much power Riven has in animation canceling.

NiceTryVi1 votes

You mean from bug abuse.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

From Riot balancing Riven around that "bug abuse", and actually cleaning up other problems around her animation canceling, specifically moon walking.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Oh good, now that that bug was fixed, they should get rid of the other bugs, specifically the one being abused to make her way too strong.

Jaygo411 votes

The difference between certain bugs and certain mechanics is opinion

Most bugs just stand out because they're champion specific OR unintentional. Something like this was relatively champion specific but accentuated by the fact that she has 3 moves on her Q allowing her to do the mechanic 3 times and it was unintentional because they said so

NiceTryVi1 votes

And it is still a bug, they just won't fix it. Doesn't make it not a bug.

Andrey03454 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvE94drI,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-08-13T13:37:01.966+0000)

Riven doesn't do damage during her dash and no she't can't. She still waits until the end of the duration, she just has her animation canceling

Well, that's the problem: she cancels animation which results in no penalty, she doesn't wait until the of the duration. Kayn could have something similar, like cancelling Q animation when using W or R.

TS Media1 votes

Except Kayn has way more upfront damage than riven and overall shorter cooldowns. Compare his 7 second dash cool down that is equal to TWO riven Qs, with Riven's 11 second dash cool down. And I'm talking early game before cool downs are taken into effect. Late game, Kayn's CD goes down by 1.5 seconds. Riven's Q level isn't affected by CD, so unless she gets 40%, she has an 11 second CD Q, that scales down to 7 seconds. Kayn's has his under almost under 4 seconds on his Q. Remainder, his Q is equivalent to TWO Riven Q's and possible even an E. EQ isn't enough to close the gap of Kayn's Q from Riven's last standing place unless she moves up preemptively expecting the Q away.

People like to talk about Riven's dashes so much, they never take into account how short those dashes are... Not to mention, she's a sitting duck when her skills are on CD and doesn't have nearly as much fight potential and spammability as other champs.

Andrey03453 votes

[{quoted}](name=TS Media,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wvE94drI,comment-id=0000000100010001,timestamp=2017-08-13T18:29:38.682+0000)

Except Kayn has way more upfront damage than riven and overall shorter cooldowns. Compare his 7 second dash cool down that is equal to TWO riven Qs, with Riven's 11 second dash cool down. And I'm talking early game before cool downs are taken into effect. Late game, Kayn's CD goes down by 1.5 seconds. Riven's Q level isn't affected by CD, so unless she gets 40%, she has an 11 second CD Q, that scales down to 7 seconds. Kayn's has his under almost under 4 seconds on his Q. Remainder, his Q is equivalent to TWO Riven Q's and possible even an E. EQ isn't enough to close the gap of Kayn's Q from Riven's last standing place unless she moves up preemptively expecting the Q away.

People like to talk about Riven's dashes so much, they never take into account how short those dashes are... Not to mention, she's a sitting duck when her skills are on CD and doesn't have nearly as much fight potential and spammability as other champs.

you overrate Kayn Q dash. It's like one riven Q, not more. It's not that huge.

Sujiren10 votes

A lot of people suggest this and I think thats a wrong way to do it. I mean Kayn is already a champion that can walk through walls. His q with cdr build has like 3 s cooldown, that little self stun animation is the only thing keeping him balanced, otherwise youd have a champ that dashes every 3 seconds and walks through walls, a bit too much mobility don't you think?

AmazoX10 votes

{quoted}

A lot of people suggest this and I think thats a wrong way to do it. I mean Kayn is already a champion that can walk through walls. His q with cdr build has like 3 s cooldown, that little self stun animation is the only thing keeping him balanced, otherwise youd have a champ that dashes every 3 seconds and walks through walls, a bit too much mobility don't you think?

You can't stay in a wall for more than 1 second during combat, SA Kayn pops like a balloon with one CC while having no way out like other assassins or any utility, it's why Darkin is so much better, Hard CC, Insanely good sustain thanks to passive and ultimate and 1000 times harder to kill because of the CC and Sustain when comparing to SH and can get the job done not as good as SH at assassinating but can do million other things way better.

Sujiren7 votes

Yes guys I play Kayn and I understand. But let it sink in to you. A dash every 3 seconds with no drawbacks, and the guy can engage on to your team or escape through walls, thats disgustingly overpowered.

AmazoX1 votes

{quoted}

Yes guys I play Kayn and I understand. But let it sink in to you. A dash every 3 seconds with no drawbacks, and the guy can engage on to your team or escape through walls, thats disgustingly overpowered.

''The guy can engage on your team''

Not as Shadow Assassin. You can't escape through walls if you are in combat, You can literally have it up for 1 second, It would take 0.5 to enter a wall and then when you enter one, The other 0.5 will kick you.

Sujiren5 votes

Thats still enough time to jump through small walls. And also it would make Kayn literally uncatchable in certain situations. Lets say Kayn is splitpushing bot 2 people try to flank him but he manages to get to the wall before getting hit, it's hard to actually hit Kayn once he is in sidelane wall, he gets 70% ms boost in the wall gets enough distance and then spams his 3s cooldown dashes, that assuming your buff does not interupt his movement. That would make Kayn's blue form beyond stupid and he would have to be nerfed in otherways, either increase his q cooldown by a lot, or give him Fiora treatment. Like if he hits q on a champion while dashing it's 3s cd, but if he uses it just to dash away then it's 7s cooldown or something.

AmazoX2 votes

{quoted}

Thats still enough time to jump through small walls. And also it would make Kayn literally uncatchable in certain situations. Lets say Kayn is splitpushing bot 2 people try to flank him but he manages to get to the wall before getting hit, it's hard to actually hit Kayn once he is in sidelane wall, he gets 70% ms boost in the wall gets enough distance and then spams his 3s cooldown dashes, that assuming your buff does not interupt his movement. That would make Kayn's blue form beyond stupid and he would have to be nerfed in otherways, either increase his q cooldown by a lot, or give him Fiora treatment. Like if he hits q on a champion while dashing it's 3s cd, but if he uses it just to dash away then it's 7s cooldown or something.

SH needs buffs, Darkin is obviously superior in every aspect unless the enemy team has no tank which is never in ranked games.

You are worried about SH spamming Q every 3 seconds with not restriction to movement, I am worried about getting 2 shoted by adc's as SH without a way out when I go in.

Sujiren2 votes

Adcs do not beat SA Kayn, unless he is far behind, he misses w (most important ability), gets stun locked, or his target gets million shields, otherwise you will usually one shot with almost no retaliation assuming you don't mess up.

Darkin feels better, because you can never go wrong with % health damage or hard cc. And unlike assasin which is completely useless when behind darkin can still be useful. Despite all the strengths darkin has, it does not burst squishies nearly as hard as SA.

AmazoX1 votes

{quoted}

Adcs do not beat SA Kayn, unless he is far behind, he misses w (most important ability), gets stun locked, or his target gets million shields, otherwise you will usually one shot with almost no retaliation assuming you don't mess up.

Darkin feels better, because you can never go wrong with % health damage or hard cc. And unlike assasin which is completely useless when behind darkin can still be useful. Despite all the strengths darkin has, it does not burst squishies nearly as hard as SA.

Every adc will beat SH kayn unless they are immobile and have no support or tank in their team, And if that's the reason then even a full ad/ap tank can get the job done and not get blown up as quick as SH Kayn would.

Darkin has burst on squishes just not high as SH Kayn.

Sujiren5 votes

Never had trouble killing adcs as sa kayn, your doing something wrong. Infact I had many games where I one shot them with just w /q.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Never had trouble killing adcs as sa kayn, your doing something wrong. Infact I had many games where I one shot them with just w /q.

SA has great burst midgame, but lategame he is a food for the ADCs.

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