The veigar stun was toxic and lacked counter play when MASTERED

UdoIkOSc4u·Mar 3, 2015·4 votes·942 views

meanwhile or doesn't even need to master it

15 Comments

The Bearded BardMar 3, 20153 votes

But Liss doesn't have an AOE stun.

UdoIkOSc4uMar 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wuWKaGya,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-03T18:02:18.535+0000)

But Liss doesn't have an AOE stun. she has her q and her w is aoe plus mobility

BluePolarizerMar 3, 20151 votes

Man lets not see more champs gutted. At this point they're seriously gonna nerf Annie, yes, fking Annie, whose been basically unchanged since the start of the game and that players go against since level 1.

Joe DreddMar 3, 20152 votes

A champion being unchanged doesn't mean they can't become better.

BluePolarizerMar 3, 20151 votes

you mean worse.

FirancilMar 3, 20151 votes

Think of it this way, you're looking at 2 paintings that are the exact same, like someone just copy pasted them side by side, you can't say one is flawed and say the other is perfect, they're both the same thing so they're either both flawed or both perfect, but that isn't what happening. Riot changed Viegar's stun because it was an unfair skill (instant AOE stun with no warning) while Annie, who's stun suffers from the same lack of counterplay (instant AOE stun with no warning) stays the same. Again, if they had to fix one that clearly means that both are flawed as they are, thus both need to be fixed.

Then that raises the question of if this kind of ability is OK in league, clearly since they changed Viegar's stun that means this kind of low counterplay skill isn't acceptable, but since they left Annie's alone that also means they are acceptable, but if they're acceptable on some champions why remove the ability from another?

You either change both because they suffer from the same flaw or you change neither because they're fine as is, you can't change one and leave the other the same after you admit that this kind of skill is bad for the game.

BluePolarizerMar 3, 20151 votes

Veigar should not have been changed. League is moving away from a strategy game and moving towards fantasy Call of Duty at this rate.

FirancilMar 3, 20151 votes

Exactly, Annie and Viegar have been out since forever, they've had this issue since their release so Riot was perfectly fine with them having these low counterplay abilities, but now that they've changed one they have no choice but to change the other to show that their balance team isn't bias and ignorant to the same problem on other champions.

Edge of DaybreakMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You either change both because they suffer from the same flaw or you change neither because they're fine as is, you can't change one and leave the other the same after you admit that this kind of skill is bad for the game.

There is a huge flaw with your logic here. They are not the same thing. You are stripping away the differences until you get down to the base value of the two champions having a way to stun multiple people. You cant just ignore differences and expect that to breed healthy changes. I could use your same logic to say that Garen has a targeted silence and Talon got his targeted silence removed so we have to remove Garen's silence. You can argue that they are insanely different skills but if I treat them with the annie/veigar reasoning it doesn't matter as they are still silences that are targetted.

FirancilMar 3, 20151 votes

The difference between Talon's silence and Garen's silence is like night and day, one was an instant gap closer with low counterplay while the other makes you have to run up to the person with a clearly defined animation for what they're running at you for, one was unhealthy and one was fine as is and didn't need change. my logic is referring to LOW COUNTERPLAY ABILITIES, the example you just gave was saying a low counterplay ability was removed from Talon is justification to remove a CC from a champion who has said CC tied to an ability THAT YOU CAN SEE COMING.

Annie's stun is instant, has no defined animation to show it's coming and no indicator to show where it's going to hit, Viegars old stun was instant, had barely any animation to show it was coming and had no indicator to show where it's going to hit, imagine if Leona's ult was like this? could you realistically say that being hit with an ability that you can't even see coming, AND it CC's you for a second, is a fair ability to be playing against?

Edge of DaybreakMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Annie's stun is instant, has no defined animation to show it's coming and no indicator to show where it's going to hit, Viegars old stun was instant, had barely any animation to show it was coming and had no indicator to show where it's going to hit, imagine if Leona's ult was like this? could you realistically say that being hit with an ability that you can't even see coming, AND it CC's you for a second, is a fair ability to be playing against?

Annie has no animation? She has a ring around her at all times she has it up and a counter showing how many spells until its up. She literally has no way to hide it from you. Annie and veigar have many differences in how their stuns work and differences in how the actual skills they use to stun you work. This is why they are not exactly the same. They are only the same if you ignore the differences which is what you were doing in that post.

Veigar can leave his event horizon in a pathway blocking it off for 3 seconds or you can go through the walls and get stunned. Annie cannot leave her stun out and use it as a cage/wall. Knowing this fact would you argue they are still the same even though I am showing you a way they are not the same right now? Veigar also stuns you for a longer duration and can do it from a further range.

FirancilMar 3, 20151 votes

You do realize that Annie can sit on 3 stacks, press E just before R and stun people without the little swirl around her even being visible right? The point is that instant stuns with no warning or counterplay are bullshit, that's literally all I'm getting at.

I compare it to Leona's ult too incase you couldn't read that far, Leona's stun works the exact same as Annie's stun, sure it has slight variations like having to hit the center to stun, but it's fundamentally the same thing, except one has a warning to avoid it while the other doesn't, why does one have counterplay while the other doesn't?

Edge of DaybreakMar 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that Annie can sit on 3 stacks, press E just before R and stun people without the little swirl around her even being visible right? The point is that instant stuns with no warning or counterplay are bullshit, that's literally all I'm getting at.

I compare it to Leona's ult too incase you couldn't read that far, Leona's stun works the exact same as Annie's stun, sure it has slight variations like having to hit the center to stun, but it's fundamentally the same thing, except one has a warning to avoid it while the other doesn't, why does one have counterplay while the other doesn't?

Yeah and I can see that counter the entire time. Still not hiding it from me. No the point you made was that they are exactly the same. Which they arent. Leona's ult does not work the same way. They arent even close. At this point i'm trying to convince you the apple is different from the orange and you are still saying they are both fruit so its the same thing. If you dont get it by now there is no hope so im just gonna stop trying to work miracles and move on.

ZephyrDrakeMar 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Think of it this way, you're looking at 2 paintings that are the exact same, like someone just copy pasted them side by side, you can't say one is flawed and say the other is perfect, they're both the same thing so they're either both flawed or both perfect, but that isn't what happening. Riot changed Viegar's stun because it was an unfair skill (instant AOE stun with no warning) while Annie, who's stun suffers from the same lack of counterplay (instant AOE stun with no warning) stays the same. Again, if they had to fix one that clearly means that both are flawed as they are, thus both need to be fixed.

Then that raises the question of if this kind of ability is OK in league, clearly since they changed Viegar's stun that means this kind of low counterplay skill isn't acceptable, but since they left Annie's alone that also means they are acceptable, but if they're acceptable on some champions why remove the ability from another?

You either change both because they suffer from the same flaw or you change neither because they're fine as is, you can't change one and leave the other the same after you admit that this kind of skill is bad for the game.

one is an ult that also requires flash and the use of other skills before to prepare the stun, the other is a basic skill that you can use whenever you want. Those aren't "exactly the same" and while i do agree that veigar's stun was too strong what Riot did was not the way to fix it, it wasn't even the correct first step

StephenizgodMar 3, 20151 votes

Throwing other champions under the bus is not the way to go, i agree that Annie and Lissandra have the same issue as old Veigar. This should not be a reason to get them nerfed though, it should be a reason to get all 3 of them looked at to better then rather then just makes them all worse.