KASSAWIN GETTING NERFED AGAIN BECAUSE HE HAS TO TRADE SAMETHING FOR HIS MOBILITY

UdoIkOSc4u·Feb 3, 2015·156 votes·7,534 views

102 Comments

Shadow GilgameshFeb 3, 201569 votes

If you would have told me in S3 I'd be defending Kassadin, I'd have called you a liar, but here we are.

TiureFeb 3, 201542 votes

To be fair, we all knew the dumpster was coming for Kassadin soon enough.

We just didn't realize that it would come like four times.

Blue Moon WolfFeb 3, 201525 votes

makes you wonder if season 6 or 7, we will be defending LeeSin and Zed O_o

acepil0tFeb 3, 201517 votes

Knowing Rito they will continue to babysit LeeSin and make sure he can make#LCSBigPlay$ all day.

Rew711Feb 3, 20158 votes

There's not much $ in the future if Riot doesn't give the champions some buffs to be able to cope with Lee Sin, and even Lee Sin can see this.

ZelnorackFeb 3, 201551 votes

I wish the irony of this didn't make me laugh so hard.

Kassadin, massive mobility with massive costs or a massive cooldown between riftwalks. 75 mana is nothing, but the 1200 it can cost.. Man. Imagine if Lee and Zed had to use 175 energy for their mobility spells?

AetherKingdomFeb 3, 20159 votes

Kassadin is more mobile than Lee or Zed by a long shot.

LuggFeb 3, 201540 votes

I don't think anyone is more mobile than Lee. He is ridiculous.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 3, 20158 votes

Rek'Sai CAN be.

l0l

AetherKingdomFeb 3, 20155 votes

Kass is more mobile. Kass ult isn't targeted, and Lee Sin requires you to hit a skill shot. Also, Kass ult has a cooldown of like 3 seconds while Lee's has 7 and 14 and Kass has a larger range on his dash.

TwoDFeb 4, 20154 votes

You talk as if you can play both mate

AetherKingdomFeb 4, 20152 votes

What makes you think I can't?

TwoDFeb 4, 20154 votes

What do you think?

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 3, 201517 votes

I agree with Lee. Kassadin's ult is severely gated by mana and cd. Lee's isn't.

soliznoelFeb 3, 20153 votes

Riven maybe.... idk, lee has the highest in the game, riven second? then i think Jax because with 40% cdr on him, his max rank Q has like a 4 or 3 sec CD

edit o Leblanc

kirbyzamaFeb 4, 20154 votes

Riven is High mobility but its very little mobility if you count pure distance gained. Less than a Kha jump and a little more than Jax jump I think. Riven is annoying because her mobility is split into 4 dashes so four chances to go in, out, or juke. Very little commitment needed unless you play her wrong.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 201515 votes

In what universe? At level 18 he is probably going to have like 2k mana maybe a couple hundred more and can teleport around for 75 / 225 / 525 / 1125 / 2325 mana. Lee Sin and Zed on the other hand are essentially resourceless so long as you manage to get in your AAs/land your skills respectively. Sure Kass can restore a measly 8% of his mana with his W but thats nothing compared to the latter basically getting their entire resource bar back. Yeah, it's like 40% if he hits a champion but that's not always something that will be able to happen--Lee Sin and Zed's works just the same whether its minions, monsters, or champions. Hell, Lee can even use turrets to proc his resource return.

Then not to mention both Lee and Zed have an essentially "get out of jail free" card where if Lee goes in he can just jump out with his W immediately--even before he reaches his target. Zed can R/W to gap close and then R/W to escape as needed. Kass has ONE form of mobility and while it is on a short cool down, the mana costs prevent it from being as effective as the aforementioned energy champs mobility. Not to mention since they have 2 skills that offer mobility even when one is on CD they can always use the other.

AetherKingdomFeb 3, 20152 votes

Do you not understand how fucking much 40% can be? Also, Zed has to hit a champion twice with the same skill to acquire energy conservation, so if Kass can't auto someone then Zed has a 1/1000000000000000000000000 chance of getting energy regeneration. And how hard is it to auto attack when you jump on someone? Kass Ult cd is 1/5 of Lee W and 1/2 of Lee Q. Kass ult is 1/5 of Zed W and 1/27 of Zed Ult. Kass can get out way easier than lee or zed.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 3, 20158 votes

40% if he hits a champion. That's not always a viable solution if you're low health or its a losing fight. Zed can hit ANY target with the same skill twice. While that is probably true for his ult, you're also not considering how much additional mana it is costing him and that if he doesn't have enough mana and has no way to regain a significant amount of his mana if the current cost is on the higher side that "cd" actually becomes the like 20 seconds it takes for the stacks to fall off.

Not to mention that just in general as an energy based champion you're resource is going to generate much quicker and reach the required levels to cast your spells much quicker than a mana based champion. The only time energy based champions ever really run out of energy is when they mess up a combo or something. A mana based champion is going to run out of their resource simply for no other reason than they haven't won the fight before their mana pool inevitably runs dry.

Azirion SolFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I wish the irony of this didn't make me laugh so hard.

Kassadin, massive mobility with massive costs or a massive cooldown between riftwalks. 75 mana is nothing, but the 1200 it can cost.. Man. Imagine if Lee and Zed had to use 175 energy for their mobility spells?

You can buy mana-regen (although it's nerfed to shit right now), you can buy a bigger mana-pool, but you can't buy energy-regen nor increase your energy-pool

So, yeah. Your idea is shit

SalzigorimandoFeb 4, 20153 votes

False, last I knew energy regen rate runes still exist.

MaplecrestFeb 4, 20156 votes

lrn2energyrunes if it's such a big problem for you.

Kind of like how mana champs get mana if it's such a big problem for them.

Azirion SolFeb 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spooky Oni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2vb6T0jZ,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2015-02-04T02:58:46.233+0000)

lrn2energyrunes if it's such a big problem for you.

Kind of like how mana champs get mana if it's such a big problem for them.

They get mana from items. They don't severely handicap their laning power for totally subpar runes

MaplecrestFeb 4, 20153 votes

Your problem is that you want those like Kassadin and Lee Sin to be on the same playing field. They're not. The fact that they use energy and mana is difference enough in playstyle. I mean hell, the guy above responded to you with a relevant response and you bring up mana regen runes like some kind of condescending asshole who, honestly, is in the absolute wrong since you got what you wanted and then flicked it off.

Azirion SolFeb 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spooky Oni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2vb6T0jZ,comment-id=00010001000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-04T03:58:06.430+0000)

Your problem is that you want those like Kassadin and Lee Sin to be on the same playing field. They're not. The fact that they use energy and mana is difference enough in playstyle. I mean hell, the guy above responded to you with a relevant response and you bring up mana regen runes like some kind of condescending asshole who, honestly, is in the absolute wrong since you got what you wanted and then flicked it off.

What I meant is why he compared items with runes. You don't gimp your laning potential for mana-regen. Why would you expect someone to use energy-regen runes instead of, say Armor or MR, when mana users can buy items (which I previously stated that was nerfed to shit, so blame Riot, not energy) to fix their mana problems (again, used to)

Auz the RipperFeb 4, 20153 votes

Mana needed to be nerfed, as does energy now

Resources are supposed to be gating and they weren't Riot fixed mana and now need to do the same with energy

not a starburstFeb 4, 20153 votes

Gee, it's almost like their lack of ability to get energy regen and a larger energy is a tradeoff they get for having an insanely high base rate of resource regeneration and not having to worry about running out of mana.

thewoundupknightFeb 4, 20153 votes

There is a 3rd cost outside of cd and mana: it takes up an R slot. Basically, because riftwalk is his ult, he can't have anything else in his ult. so for those who keep wanting to negate the skill, you keep forgetting that gutting it will leave him with 3 skills and needing compensation.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20152 votes

exept 2 riftwalk is at max what you need to kill squishy do you even play kass rofl

ZelnorackFeb 4, 20156 votes

Right...

You realize it only has 2% max mana as scaling +1% per stack of riftwalk, right? I usually end up with 3K mana on Kassadin, so that's 60 bonus damage +30 per stack. 2 riftwalk at max, so let's assume that you have 40% CRD and use riftwalk every time it is up in a fight, shall we?

First riftwalk does 180 damage, and the second does 180+60+30= 270. 180+270=450. 450 magic damage with 2 riftwalks used on the same squishy at the cost of 225 mana

Now if you want to get unrealistic and say 'hit them with 5 riftwalks'.. First off you're spending 2325 mana to kill one person, but for the sake of getting a point across I will give you the numbers.

180, 270, 360, 450, 540. Beautiful thing aboug 1,2,3,4, and 5 is they equal 15. so we have 15xx damage. 4+6 is 10, so 16xx, 8+7+5 is 20, so 1800 damage at the low, low cost of 2325 mana! That's still not much for 5 spell casts. That will only kill Anivia , , Cassiopeia , Gnar , Heimerdinger , Karthus , Leblanc , Nami , Sona , Velkoz , Zilean , and Zyra .

Please keep in mind this is with 0 magic resist, 0 magic pen, and 0 health regen. With health regen, I think there may be only 2 champions that would die, and that's Sona and Zilean .

Riftwalk is worthless for damage. Its only use is to get you in range for E, Q, and maybe W. Which combined deal 180 (70% AP), 140 (60% AP) + 20 (10%), and 180 (70% AP). I think I had 450 AP at the end of my last Kass game, so that's 315 more damage on Q and E, 270 on W active and 45 on W passive. That's 1465 damage for a fraction of the cost. You COULD use it for damage, and at the second stack like you suggest. but then you deal 1915 magic damage total. Enough to kill most squishies, but then you remember that almost everyone builds either a item 3102 or item 3065 against Kassadin for the bonus survivability in the late game.

I'm sorry to say, but riftwalk is only good for 2 quick flashes per 25 seconds late game.

ForgiveColourFeb 4, 20151 votes

good job wasting your time when you dont even understand what i mean. I bet you think when people say zed press r for kill, zed literally press only r rofl.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 4, 20154 votes

{quoted}

good job wasting your time when you dont even understand what i mean. I bet you think when people say zed press r for kill, zed literally press only r rofl.

lee press r cause he is lee win

ThePlasticSporkFeb 3, 201514 votes

Lee Sin traded his eyesight.

GigglingAngelFeb 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin traded his eyesight.

Too bad he sees just as well as all the other champions when it comes to meaningful visibility. Lore =/= gameplay.

JunkοFeb 3, 201513 votes

Zed actually trades his AS because it's such an important stat on him. sarcasm

-Zed main.

DarkenedSoul420Feb 3, 201513 votes

Does he get played in the lcs? Yes

Is he Zed or LeeSin ? No

Then he must be nerfed.

For CarthageFeb 3, 201511 votes

He's taking a small base damage nerf to his Q with a bit of a buff to the base damage on his W passive, which still procs on the active stab.

It's not so bad. I usually end up maxing W first anyway.

And Zed and Lee are just really obnoxious. They're not fun to fight in the early game, anybody can say that, but as far as they go in terms of teamfighting, their almost entirely single target-style and energy-based combat actually leave them lacking come lategame, where the easy sustain in lane starts leaving them coming up short; you can bitch about mana costs, but the fact is that when you're coming in at max mana to a teamfight, the only problem you'll ever have will be your cooldowns. No champ has ever 100-0'd their own mana within three seconds of a teamfight, but most energy-based champs will.

This is given you still build tear on Kassadin. Going in with 1200 mana cost on a tearless Kass will leave you very much out of mana.

kDrakariFeb 4, 20151 votes

It's a buff to W base damage if you max it first, but the skill order I've been told maxes it last and doesn't break even until level 15.

Not that it really matters, they reverted the Q change anyway. With the current PBE patch it's really just an extra incentive to max W first, which you should be happy about since it's a buff for you.

Staying out of Zed and Lee though, I can tell that I have nothing useful to contribute to that part.

kDrakariFeb 5, 20151 votes

This time they reverted the W and re-nerfed the Q. Still not a big deal, 10 damage is pretty miniscule late game so it's just a nerf to laning-phase poke where Kass isn't supposed to be safe.

TheFleetAdmiralFeb 3, 20158 votes

Kass has been nerfed to the ground so many times, his problem in the LCS is his mobility, so why do so many nerfs hit his damage instead of fixing an underlying problem? This proves Riot wants Kassadin to not be played until he is reworked, as his damage is already sub-par for any mid laner. I would love to see him truly viable again, but the only reason he is getting nerfed is because of competitive play while LeeSin gets a free pass... item 3070

Señor KarthusFeb 3, 20157 votes

I wouldn't have an argument against this (because it makes sense and the reasons are just logic) if it wasn't for LeeSin and Zed . Their cases are so flagrantly painful that they make Riot look totally inconsistent with what they say and their reasons to nerf Kass.

Unironic SJWFeb 3, 20157 votes

it's sad too

Kass is super balanced outside pro play where they can maximize his broken ult while working around his other crippling weaknesses in a way average or even above average players can't

lee sin and zed just require competence to faceroll

kass pays a LOT for his mobility and he's not a good pick in yolo queue

JasiwelFeb 3, 20157 votes

I didn't realize this until now. Kassadin is also a mana-based champion and his winrate/pickrate isn't even good; it's average at best.

It's not that I question balance decisions on Kassassin, but rather that I'm confused as to why he was quick to see value nerfs so soon whereas other champions Zed/Lee have statistically stronger results across the board without seeing any true nerfs. An attack speed love tap isn't a impactful nerf. Slightly changing the base armor and health regen is practically negligible with Lee. The overbearing aspects of Zed's Waveclear (his spammable Q and abilities not requiring enough energy) was not addressed and Lee simply lacks visible/exploitable weaknesses. Actually, both have that latter.

x No HeartFeb 3, 20156 votes

Am I the only one who doesn't find Lee Sin problematic? Just don't die to him and he's basically worthless outside of competitive (pro and amateur) play. Sure, he does a lot, but he needs gold to be anything other than a Jack of Trades. His identity is being decent at everything, but he's not strong at anything aside from early pressure. Just don't die, it's not as hard as everybody makes it seem. And this is coming from somebody who averages insane amounts of deaths.

LaserDeathBladeFeb 3, 20153 votes

And most nooblord Lee's just rush sightstone to be even more useless anyway

x No HeartFeb 3, 201519 votes

On the contrary, that's generally how Lee gets his income. Without Sightstone, he has less options in terms of ganking and dueling, meaning he has to rely more heavily on foresight and planning.