Kalista is a mistake and should have never been released

UdoIkOSc4u·Jun 30, 2015·149 votes·8,492 views

Riot you said it with can't you admit it with as well?

196 Comments

DisasterSolaJun 30, 201512 votes

Why do so many people hate on a champion who builds attack speed and lifesteal instead of crit? Oh wait, youre just butthurt that shes mobile and needs to land her basic attacks to kill you.

Stop crying and learn to play against her.

KivolanJun 30, 201588 votes

"Needs to land her basic attacks"

Because basic attacks are super difficult to land. Phew, clicking. Difficult.

That aside... What do you mean by learn to play against her? Teach us, please. Because as far as I know, the only way to counter her is with a point and click stun. Skillshots are next to impossible to land and she is god tier at kiting melee champions. Combine that with any sort of peel and she is next to impossible to take down during a teamfight.

Her passive is cancer. It needs to be removed and completely reworked or put on a cooldown of some sort.

UdoIkOSc4uJun 30, 20151 votes

[deleted]

lB2kGRlc8yJun 30, 201520 votes

No, no he wasn't. I've seen this guy on other threads, he legit thinks melee shouldn't be able to do a damn thing against her, and that nobody plays melees in high tier games. He tried to compare Kali to singed in a desperate attempt to gloss over the amount of cancer she is.

SammystormJun 30, 20155 votes

your point is wrong. Olaf, xin, Jarvan, Rumble, Shen, Rek'sai, Gragas are all champs that have been played in the lcs (their are more but I am to lazy to find them).

Literally anyone with a gap closer and cc has no problem with her. If you are talking about melee carries like master yi then their is a million reasons why people don't pick them in top tier play and none of them are Kalista.

MarhsallLee67Jun 30, 20158 votes

Unlike Kalista, their gapclosers have cooldowns. A Kalista with half a brain can kite any one of the champions you listed for days. They might be able to get a few hits in, but killing her is a dream, because unless they can find some way to stick to her 24/7 and kill her fast enough, either she'll get away or she'll kill them with her infinitely-stacking Rend (or just use it to slow them and make it even easier to get away).

SammystormJun 30, 20153 votes

k drop a nautilas ult, sej ult, mao'kai w. She requires team coordination when playing against or with her hence why she is frustrating in solo queue

MarhsallLee67Jun 30, 201517 votes

Because absolutely HAVING to use point-and-click hard CC to have more than a 0% chance of killing somebody is not a design flaw at all.

TheDeadnoobJul 1, 20152 votes

Honestly you want a point and click OP champ with a point and click CC with the possible speed to keep up? One champ can do that. He's blue, he's bald, He is... Ryze

MiraweaveJul 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Honestly you want a point and click OP champ with a point and click CC with the possible speed to keep up? One champ can do that. He's blue, he's bald, He is...

A champion having a counter does not mean they're not overpowered or not badly designed. One hideously imbalanced champion being good against another does not make either one balanced.

Sire HippingtonJun 30, 201516 votes

27.7%pickrate, 67.0%banrate, 94.7%pick/ban, 55.7%winrate in pro play(all regions)

Sure they ban her in 2/3 off al games cause they have no problem with her...

SammystormJun 30, 20152 votes

I never said I didn't think she was strong but I don't think it is her passive that makes her the must pick she is.

Ariel the CruelJun 30, 201513 votes

Personally, I would say it not only her passive. Her passive in a vacuum isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be. But in addition to it she can. . . Do 20% max health magic damage (flat base value). Out-smite jungle Nunu with only a small bit of wind-up. Maintain a near perma-slow. Engage/save an ally with an ult that gets abused by trolls in Yolo Queue. Pump out multiple roaming wards. Ignore slows. And continue to dash even when silenced.

Everything together just makes for a very frustrating experience. And historically, ban rates depict frustration more than power at all elo's (more so at lower levels). She's not OP, and I don't think anyone (reasonable) is actually arguing that anymore. But she's very difficult to play against, even with a well organized team. And that's what makes her such a problem.

Kuroi86Jun 30, 20155 votes

The issue isn't so much what she has, but what she isn't limited by. There are ADC's that can pump out damage much faster, but they suffer for it, typically with a lack of mobility.

What surprises me is that she doesn't need more time to wind up her damage and scale up like she does. Her early game is slightly too forgiving given how strong she can be late game if she gets ahead.

SammystormJul 1, 20152 votes

I would agree with this statement. She is frustrating but trying to compare her to vlad who is straight up game breaking is kind of silly. Vlad broke a complete item set. Kalista is just frustrating to play against.

MiraweaveJul 1, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I would agree with this statement. She is frustrating but trying to compare her to vlad who is straight up game breaking is kind of silly. Vlad broke a complete item set. Kalista is just frustrating to play against.

She also hard counters a third of the game's champion pool just by existing.

TheDeadnoobJul 1, 20151 votes

He broke an Item set? I'm new to the game and Kinda lost, can someone explain?

Kuroi86Jul 1, 20151 votes

Spellvamp.

Prior to Vlad, spellvamp could be a lot stronger than what it currently is. But with his kit, he absolutely breaks spellvamp. His E alone does that much. Each stack of empower it gives him increases the effectiveness of his self heal, health regen and spellvamp. Each stack increases them by 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% and can stack up to four times multiplicative. This lets him increase the effectiveness of spellvamp by up to 36% and that is without item 3065 . It also increases the effectiveness of his self heal from his Q. Add this on top of a passive that makes him naturally tanky by simply building AP and a kit that requires spellvamp and you've got a ludicrous champion on your hands. And this is Vlad in his current form, after being hard nerfed and he can still be a monster late game.

SammystormJul 1, 20152 votes

He is the most nerfed champion. He has received 7 nerfs I believe.

Luner HunterJul 1, 20154 votes

lol i'd like to lead you to check out sona's 27 straight nerfs before being reworked into a dumpster compared to PRE-rework (albet still heavily nerfed) sona

killd0zerJun 30, 20158 votes

Kalista's shitty design has nothing to do with your irrelevant anecdote.

She's specifically designed to counter a class of champion, if she can't counter them, she does toe to toe with them. That's pretty shitty in a game that's all about not having hard counters.

DisasterSolaJun 30, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's shitty design has nothing to do with your irrelevant anecdote.

She's specifically designed to counter a class of champion, if she can't counter them, she does toe to toe with them. That's pretty shitty in a game that's all about not having hard counters.

So is yasuo, but we dont beg for him to be gutted every which way to sunday.

{quoted}

"Needs to land her basic attacks"

Because basic attacks are super difficult to land. Phew, clicking. Difficult.

That aside... What do you mean by learn to play against her? Teach us, please. Because as far as I know, the only way to counter her is with a point and click stun. Skillshots are next to impossible to land and she is god tier at kiting melee champions. Combine that with any sort of peel and she is next to impossible to take down during a teamfight.

Her passive is cancer. It needs to be removed and completely reworked or put on a cooldown of some sort.

You shouldnt be in RANGE of her basic attacks long enough for her to be doing that much damage. As for nerfs, if the sheeple hadnt begged for her to be gutted because of blind hatred we might have actually got a meaningful nerf; dash scaling reduction. As it stands, her passive has a very large distance. A meaningful nerf would have been to remove the T2 scaling; Her passive doesnt need to be removed or made useless with some shitty cooldown. It just needs distance toned down a notch.

Playing against kalista is the same as playing against singed. you; A) Do not chase kalista unless you have guaranteed damage and shes one skill away from death B) Do not stay within AA range unless you have backup C) Have some kind of active health regen like voli passive, heal, or mikaels. Other possible nerfs would be letting cleanse work on rend stacks, and making it so runaans bolts dont proc rend stacks against champions. Like... "Only kalista's basic attacks add a stack of rend against enemy champions".

Seriously people, calling for a champion to be eviscerated just because you cant jump on them and blow them up, or because theyre mobile and need to land 10+ basic attacks to secure the kill, is beyond pathetic. Its like some brat whining that the horse his wealthy grandfather bought him needs to die because hes to small to ride it.

killd0zerJun 30, 201525 votes

So is yasuo, but we dont beg for him to be gutted every which way to sunday.

Because he was already gutted every which way to sunday.

What are you even talking about?

DisasterSolaJun 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because he was already gutted every which way to sunday.

What are you even talking about?

And yet..._ he's specifically designed to counter a class of champion, if he can't counter them, he does toe to toe with them. That's pretty shitty in a game that's all about not having hard counters._

Unlike yasuo, kalista only has a single reliable damage ability. You almost NEVER use her Q unless you need an impromtu hop, or want to finish an enemy without burning your E. And yasuo wasnt nerfed hard - at all. Hes just not reliable in a meta that revolves around tank and mobility. its the same reason why zed is god tier right now; the meta favors him.

killd0zerJun 30, 201517 votes

I don't even know what ur saying lol, a bunch of random defensive comments lol

Yas is garbo unless played to near perfection, in which case he's good against ranged squishes, and loses to pretty much everything else.

That's a testament to how shitty his design is. He's so overloaded, you need to be godlike on him to be even decent.

Then there's Kalista, the Ranged Yasuo who's strong in general, and get's crazy af if your good. It's her turn to get dumpstered like Yasuo ALREADY WAS.

manbearswineJun 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yas is garbo unless played to near perfection, in which case he's good against ranged squishes, and loses to pretty much everything else.

I disagree,he is comparing yasuo's hard counter mechanics to that of kalista,which makes sense,he forgets that there is a cry out every time yasuo becomes a dominant pick,so the logic is fine,the premise is wrong: we(well,I at least,seems to be more whenever yasuo becomes a serious pick) want both yasuo and kalista gutted,we aren't fine with yasuo.

That's a testament to how shitty his design is. He's so overloaded, you need to be godlike on him to be even decent.

Nah,that design is actually fine,nothing wrong with having a high skillcap as long as your design is fine otherwise(as in not hyper mobile cancerous windwall garbage like yasuo,or even more mobile cancer like kalista),and you aren't perma fotm(like thresh),there is nothing inherently wrong with being a high skillcap champion,riot just has a tendency to mess them up balance wise.

Then there's Kalista, the Ranged Yasuo who's strong in general, and get's crazy af if your good. It's her turn to get dumpstered like Yasuo ALREADY WAS.

I don't know why either of them even exists.

kJsJul 1, 20153 votes

The main MASSIVE difference between Yasuo and Kalista is that Yasuo is melee. He actually needs to go in and risk being focussed to get his reward. Kalista really doesn't. She's a Yasuo that's ranged and that's bad design from the get go. She doesn't really need to put herself at risk of being focused because of her high kite and range. Her high kiting ability already puts her in a safe spot. Whereas Yasuo, if he fucks a little bit with wall placement or positioning around minions and targets, he'll get CCed and stunned pretty easily and won't be able to Sweeping Blade his way out of there, if both targets are unavailable, the way Kalista hops out of dire situations.

You also forget that Windwall is on a pretty high cooldown until late game because people don't typical max it over Sweeping Blade after maxing Steel Tempest. Now I'm not saying a godly Yasuo is easy to play against but it's exactly what you need to do with him to excel compared to Kalista, where anyone who practices 10 or more games can escape any situation with her hop and even easier with her ultimate, that is essentially a guaranteed gap closer for your team's heavy CC, heavy tank.

Lil SoybeanJun 30, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I don't even know what ur saying lol, a bunch of random defensive comments lol

Yas is garbo unless played to near perfection, in which case he's good against ranged squishes, and loses to pretty much everything else.

That's a testament to how shitty his design is. He's so overloaded, you need to be godlike on him to be even decent.

Then there's Kalista, the Ranged Yasuo who's strong in general, and get's crazy af if your good. It's her turn to get dumpstered like Yasuo ALREADY WAS.

To be fair, I'd say that it's actually a testament to the genius of Yasuo's design.
Sub-par unless played very well, but very rewarding when he is played very well. He's not broken freelo, but he's not unviable, either. He has a design that some people really enjoy, and it creates a following of players that want to master him to do well with him.
I'd say that's an excellent champion design...he was just out of control on release. (Before all the nerfs/balance changes.)

Kalista, however, is an inherently broken design. I definitely agree there.

Her passive counters melees with the infinite kiting...but it also counters ranged champions by giving her incredible skillshot-dodging. What? "Point and click CC" isn't even a "weakness" of hers...It's just the only remaining thing she isn't incredibly strong against.

For example: Targeted CC is only said to be her weakness because she is practically immune to skillshots - not because Targeted CC actually hurts her any more than other champions.
It's just equally effective on her as it is on everyone else.
So it's not a weakness at all. It's just the one thing she's not near-invincible to.

To really drive that point home: Almost everyone gets locked down by point-and-click CC (except maybe Irelia, Olaf...) but unlike most champions, Kalista has some of the best chances of hopping off to safety once that CC wears off. And movement speed slow-stacking won't meaningfully reduce the distance of her hops either.
That means she's even strong against her one "weakness." Finally catch her out, then watch her hop away to safety.

macromiteJun 30, 20152 votes

you are in defensive mode, but champions that have Kalista level kite should not have Kalista level teamfight. its ridiculous, giving an adc the tools to both destroy tanks and bruisers without even caring, and having no real cost to escape. pair that with an aoe knockup, percent health damage, and an ability that ends up being a great execute paired with a slow in case you missed the kill, and you end up with what many believe to be a retarded champion.

You bring Yasuo up, but Yasuo wasn't designed to completely counter a class of champion, he was designed to be able to go toe to toe with them, being melee is already a disadvantage to being ranged, and quite a big one at that, so a ranged designed to counter melee, which they already do, is ridiculous.

SammystormJun 30, 20151 votes

The only other champion who has Kalista level kiting has better team fight and has been around a hell of a lot longer.

macromiteJun 30, 20153 votes

If you're referring to ashe, I'll have to disagree with you, kalista is much better at kiting, and has a comparable teamfight, thats slightly better if you're playing well. If you're referring to vayne, I'll say that a kalista is obviously better at kiting. Lucian? Kalista is better in both regards. ez, graves, corki? worse teamfight and kite. sivir? Jinx? draven? Miss fortune? they all lack the kite possibility.

there is no other adc in the game with as much kite and teamfight potential as kalista. no other adc has a safe a laning phase paired with as much power mid to late game. there is no point where kalista is weak, and she can be intensly strong. she has a hard advantage against melee while still having a completely unfair advantage against ranged characters. the only fair part of kalista is that you need more than two neurons to play her, but it doesn't make up for the fact that she has so many tools to turn fights into her favor that its almost not worth fighting her.

Duke AnaxJun 30, 20159 votes

{quoted}

You shouldnt be in RANGE of her basic attacks long enough for her to be doing that much damage. ... B) Do not stay within AA range unless you have backup

And how do you suppose to get out of her range?

AbyssphereJun 30, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wtJtpYGb,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-06-30T14:59:18.196+0000)

And how do you suppose to get out of her range?

This. Getting into a Kalista's range is deat primarily because it's incredibly difficult to get out of it again. Once you enter her sphere of influence you either have a reliable, large dash or you don't escape. That's it.

Summonerrr 1Jun 30, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Why do so many people hate on a champion who builds attack speed and lifesteal instead of crit? Oh wait, youre just butthurt that shes mobile and needs to land her basic attacks to kill you.

Stop crying and learn to play against her.

Funny that Riot itself has admitted her counterplay options are severely limited by the design of her kit...

lB2kGRlc8yJun 30, 20154 votes

The dude's got applesauce dripping from his ears and eyes, so he won't have any legitimate counterargument to throw your way. Guy's just mad cancer champs are being addressed, and he knows kalista is on the list.

FeathermaneJun 30, 201512 votes

Kalista is fun, playing against her is a mini game. But whenever you can't just run at something and make it die, it makes little babies sad.

doubleguacJun 30, 201517 votes

But whenever you can't just run at something and make it die, it makes little babies sad.

Well, if you're playing a melee against a ranged champion, generally you have to close on them if you want to interact with them. That's just kind of how it works. I mean, what do you expect melees to do? Never interact with her? But that's often a bruiser's job--to dive the carry. Someone magically kill her without closing on her?

How is it a "minigame" to play someone like udyr against kalista? One she gets one or two attack speed items, she's basically completely immune to his kit unless someone else CC's her for a LONG time.

Riot has stated over and over again that they don't like hard counters. Counterplay should happen in game, not in the champ select screen. I don't think Kalista is grossly overpowered; her problem is that her kit design boxes out a lot of champions.

FeathermaneJun 30, 20155 votes

It's a simple lesson: don't just run at Kalista. If she can't just ram her head into an Udyr and kill him every time he enters her field of vision, why does he HAVE TO be able to do that to her?

The minigame is in manipulating positioning and coordinating with teammates so she can't escape easily. It's like chess - you don't just align your rook with a king and deliver checkmate, you manipulate your pieces and the enemy's available moves to create a scenario that favors you.

kJsJun 30, 201510 votes

Yes because every match of League is a premade with close friends who you know the weaknesses and strengths of. Casual non-rank soloQ League is very dissimilar to chess. You don't know all the capabilities and skills, or what the pieces are thinking, you're but one piece out of 5, the other 4 you can't control.

That given, 5v5 maybe, if you're really that well co-ordinated and you tailor your champions to deal effectively against a Kalista.

EDIT: Clarification.

UdoIkOSc4uJun 30, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yes because every match of League is a premade with close friends who you know the weaknesses and strengths of. League is very dissimilar to chess. You don't know all the capabilities and skills, or what the pieces are thinking, you're but one piece out of 5, the other 4 you can't control.

That given, 5v5 maybe, if you're really that well co-ordinated and you tailor your champions to deal effectively against a Kalista.

and see her power in the lcs so...

Noctius28Jun 30, 20155 votes

Have you tried playing with her? She has awfull early game but good end game, her last hitting is the most difficult to hit of all the adc And actually controlling her jumping also takes alot of practice, I tried... I tried mastering her, but the only time of the game I can use her jumps properly is after getting a hurricane

Not to mention her W and ulti do no damage, she is support dependent to even have a ulti, her Q does not pass various enemies if it doesnt kill, it has a very long wind up

And if you can't catch her from the front let me tell you a secret (you can catch her from the back)

If you try going 1 on 1 then yeah she will kite you to hell and back, so don't, use team cc instead but that is her only advantage, she doesn't have vaynes damage, or jinxs tower pushing or global ulti, she doesn't have varus or caits distance, she has only movement

MessaigaJun 30, 201516 votes

Her W's passive does a hefty chunk of magic damage if you are coordinated with your support. I think past all the blind rage about Kalista, her passive is just awful design. Everything else about her is pretty cool and thematic, what with the infinite lodging of spears and the black spear item to bind with your support, but I just fail to see where the infinite hopping was necessary or where it made sense for her theme (spectral entity of vengeance).

CertainlyT just for some reason makes champions that end up being problematic. A lot of the champions he designed have been very fun to play as, but playing against them just feels awful.

Noctius28Jun 30, 20158 votes

On CertainlyT champs being problematic I agree (especially Thresh), but I do believe Kalistas hops are what make her what she is, and they are really hard to master, that combined with her very bad early game makes me believe she is balanced

Now I believe she may be annoying if someone learns to play her but that's like every champ Ryze has perma root end game Catarina can jump all around and have multiple ultis Garen end game has to not get hit for 5 secs and he is at full health again

But all of them have counters, just like Kalista has, stun her, root her, snare her and she is dead If she goes 1 on 1 vs any other adc he will probably loose, graves has more burst and aoe abilities, meaning her hops will not evade the skillshots Jinx can just spam mini gun and does way more damage per sec then kalista Vayne has all the speed to catch up to kalista and a butt load more damage Tristana has a much faster burst with her bomb then kalista and in case she run Trist only has to rocket jump to her and BOOM Cait can shut down a kalista early given how much of an early game bully she is Sivir can deny the spear and the stack burst with her spell shield

and so on, she has strenght and weaknesses, but to know them you have to play her

MessaigaJun 30, 20153 votes

Thing is, every champion is countered by crowd control. Got a Riven running toward you? Stun her. Udyr's trying to run away? Slow him down. Kalista's kiting you? Snare her. My basic understanding of Kalista's strengths and weaknesses looks something like this:

Pros: Incredible kiting, high burst at the end of trades, strong team-fighting and AOE damage, vision via Sentinels, scales well with flat AD and attack speed, %HP nuke on a short cooldown.

Cons: Back-loaded damage (need extended trades to win), cannot cancel AA, doesn't scale well with crit, feels clunky early game from lack of attack speed, less effective if binded ally is disconnected or not near you. Lack of built in steroids.

Also, how is her last hitting very difficult? Her E resets (and refunds some mana too) if you kill at least one target so I can't imagine its incredibly difficult.

Noctius28Jun 30, 20152 votes

Trust me even with refund her E uses ALOT of mana so you can't use that for last hitting for long

And where does she have aoe damage? She is as good at team fighting as any other adc, why do you believe she is better?

everything else I agreed with you

OrbvJun 30, 20156 votes

She's really not hard to last hit with. She still attacks better than Swain, Annie and Quinn.

Team fighting revolves around targeting the nearest enemy and killing them before they get to you. She is one of the best for teamfight because she doesn't rely on a support defending her the entire time. She can literally jump in circles away from any possible threat. Also she can save her Support from dying by ulting. Teamfighting with her is very safe.

Sivir is also good at teamfighting because of AoE. Jinx because of AoE and range. Tristana because of resetting leap. Graves because of AoE.

But she has good mobility.

SammystormJun 30, 20158 votes

Anivia Karthus

The gods of crappy cs.

UdoIkOSc4uJun 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

The gods of crappy cs.

REPLACE KARTHUS WITH SWAIN OMG KARTHUS IS THE KING OF THE FARM

Shrek LuigiJul 1, 20152 votes

This, karth is the undead god of last-hitting under turret

MessaigaJul 1, 20151 votes

My impression of her having AOE damage is from many Kalista's purchasing Runaan's Hurricane, allowing her to E multiple champions at once (provided they are within range of the primary target).

The reason why I believe her teamfight is strong is from her Ult and the AOE damage that results from her most popular build (BT/Hurricane/Bork/LW/Situational Item/Boots), and ease in escaping pursuing melees.