"We have to change veigar cause he is toxic to play against

UdoIkOSc4u·Feb 15, 2015·70 votes·3,415 views

we can't buff veigar with his current ulti it is just free damage point and and click,LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL MEANWHILE LEE WIN 600 DAMAGE 2X RATIO KNOCKBACK LOW CANCER CD AOE TOO

47 Comments

JunkοFeb 15, 201547 votes

As much as i hate threads like this, i have to upvote, Lee Sin ult has more base damage on lower CD while applying hard CC and having a better ratio. What the fuck?

TomA3XFeb 15, 201522 votes

Upvoting shit like this just shows Riot not to listen to us. I don't agree with some of the veigar changes, but endorsing this bullshit is why nothing ever gets changed.

Couple of things you missed btw.

Lee sins ultimate doesn't gain 2 damage every time he kills a minion with Q
Lee sin's ultimate doesn't scale with the opponent's AD, on top of it's own scaling.
Lee sin doesn't have a 2.5 second AOE stun, enabling him to easily land his ultimate.
Lee sin has to commit to a target using Q before He can ult them, Veigar can ult from a while away and stun them to prevent any counterplay.
Lee sin's ultimate can ruin a teamfight if used incorrectly, the only way veigar can misplay is to KS.

I don't agree with everything Riot have done to veigar, but you need to give a balanced argument, anything sounds ridiculous if you say it right.

TomA3XFeb 15, 201515 votes

{quoted}

~~ Couple of things you missed btw. ~~ Patch notes 5.4

Lee sins ultimate ~~ doesn't~~ gains 2 damage every time he kills a minion with Q

Lee sin's ultimate ~~doesn't~~ scales with the opponent's AD, on top of it's own scaling.

Lee sin ~~doesn't~~ has a 2.5 second AOE stun.

Lee sin's ultimate can ~~ruin a ~~ teamfight if used incorrectly, ~~the only way veigar can misplay is to KS.~~

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 15, 20153 votes

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH LEE SIN GOT 2X AD RATIO MEANING WAY MORE DAMAGE THAN VEIGAR ULTI AND 600 BASE DAMAGE WITH KNOCKACK LEE HAS MOBILITY SUSTAIN AND A CANCER CHAMP IN GENERAL

Knight SoIaire Feb 15, 20153 votes

Upvoting shit like this just shows Riot notto listen to us

there are dozens of threads that are nice to riot and have over 300 upvotes? do you think those get their attention ? maybe one or 2 have some red posts

TomA3XFeb 15, 20152 votes

Because 90% of them are reposts. Have you any idea how many posts like this there are? Showing Riot that we support this is NOT going to make them listen, It's going to tell them that the people who want (in this case) lee sin nerfs and veigar reverted, are angry whiny children who can't present a balanced argument, with zero intelligence. I don't know riot's values, but i doubt whiny children are a demographic they wish to cater for.

Nucleophilic atkFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin has to commit to a target using Q before He can ult them, Veigar can ult from a while away and stun them to prevent any counterplay.

Lee Sin can ult a target that is not affected by Q.

TomA3XFeb 15, 20152 votes

My point is that he has to be directly adjacent to them to ult. Veigar's has a fairly large range.

Nucleophilic atkFeb 15, 20152 votes

Ok, so say that lol. Don't make it sound like you have to use Q. You can use a plethora of other techniques with Lee to ult someone.

TomA3XFeb 15, 20151 votes

Just for you baby, i'll change it.

ReazaleFeb 15, 20154 votes

Fairly large range? Lets see : Lee sin Q range 1100 for the first and 1300 for the 2nd R 375 Veigars: E 1025 R 650

JUST LOOK AT THAT , LEE HAS MORE RANGE THAN VEIGAR! :P not such a long range Veigar now EH

Lee has 2 gasp closer and of which requires a ward but might as well be a target dash , and it STILL has more range than Veigars ult (Lee sin w 700) All in all , lee has more ways to ult some1 than Veigar. And even if he fails he will probably be able to walk away from it , Veigar , not so much.

TomA3XFeb 15, 20152 votes

Lee has to go into melee range to get his off, veigar can safely stay behind a stun wall if he wishes.

Not even going to bother answering the rest of that.

ReazaleFeb 15, 20153 votes

With all the gap closer champs have right now , Veigar with his 650 range might as well be a melee

RozzetaFeb 15, 201523 votes

If we're going to do that, we could always say tha Veigar doesn't have:

two dashes
a % missing healh damage skill,
shield AND lifesteal
Energy as a resource.

TomA3XFeb 15, 20157 votes

You just listed his abilities, I listed the differences between their ultimates, even if I did include some of his other abilities, it was to show how they complement his ultimate.

ReazaleFeb 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

You just listed his abilities, I listed the differences between their ultimates, even if I did include some of his other abilities, it was to show how they complement his ultimate.

Cos Veigar ult does a 2.5 aoe stun

{quoted}

Upvoting shit like this just shows Riot not to listen to us. I don't agree with some of the veigar changes, but endorsing this bullshit is why nothing ever gets changed.

Couple of things you missed btw.

Lee sins ultimate doesn't gain 2 damage every time he kills a minion with Q

Lee sin's ultimate doesn't scale with the opponent's AD, on top of it's own scaling.

Lee sin doesn't have a 2.5 second AOE stun, enabling him to easily land his ultimate.

Lee sin has to commit to a target using Q before He can ult them, Veigar can ult from a while away and stun them to prevent any counterplay.

Lee sin's ultimate can ruin a teamfight if used incorrectly, the only way veigar can misplay is to KS.

I don't agree with everything Riot have done to veigar, but you need to give a balanced argument, anything sounds ridiculous if you say it right.

1.2 dmg per creep mind u but it does scale with the amount of players hit be whatever u kick , for total grand of 3000+1000% of his ad :D , Veigars ult isnt aoe. Two things : first his stun isnt on his ult , 2nd 1.5 sec airborne >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2.5 sec stun (u cant cleanse airborne , its never reduced be tenacity and it even prevents some skills that u can use while under the effect of others for being casted (hi tryndamere)

Veigar stun can ruin a teamfight if he misplay , cos if he miss that stun and he gets engaged , he will die turning the fight into a 4v5. AND Veigar KSing is a missplay , is he that bad even before the nerfs , that Veigar taking a kill is a miss play?

TomA3XFeb 15, 20153 votes

[deleted]

ReazaleFeb 15, 20154 votes

The thing is simple: Lee is warping the balance not Veigar There is a reason Lee is being played like he is now and Veigar isnt. If u were comparing ults , i dont see the point of fucking counting 1 of Veigar skills as part of his ult.

And Lee as an easier time doing anything cos he has 2 mobility skills. And lee ult has like 50%l less cd than Veigar has on his and also has an aoe airborne... and it cost NOTHING.

And Veigar is way more likely to die than LEE

CaeziumFeb 16, 20152 votes

But you can't Cleanse Lee ult knocking you up(him kicking someone into you) or knocking you back(him kicking you).

You sound like you think Veigar was some absurdly overpowered powerhouse. He wasn't. He was annoying yes, but not overpowered. Veigar can be caught out, Lee can't.

RozzetaFeb 15, 20151 votes

What are you talking about? Above you just compared Lee Sin's ultimate with Veigar's entire kit (i.e.: "Lee sins ultimate doesn't gain 2 damage every time he kills a minion with Q")

And that he needs to "commit with Q"; Lee just jumps on you, puts a ward the other side of a tree and W's to it. If he jumps on you in the first place, he has either a good reason to believe he can kill you or knows he can do huge damage and run away, since otherwise he uses Q as a poke with no need to follow up.

TomA3XFeb 16, 20152 votes

[deleted]

RozzetaFeb 16, 20152 votes

First, Lee's skillshot is a 1100 attack with energy cost. All Veigar's point and click attacks are 650 (not sure how much his new Q will have). Of course that doesn't really matter since neither is a poke champion, but bear in mind he can initiate way beyond Veigar's reach. The only follow up Veigar can do to a long range Event horizon would probably be Dark Matter alone, since it's range is 900 (Veigar would still need to walk a little to be in position, so a Lee with Mercury boots should be able to get away before it lands)

Secondly, the passive for Veigar's AP gain is from Q. Kill a normal minion with Q for 1 AP. Kill a big minion with Q for 2 AP. Kill a champion with anything for 1*Q's level AP. The irony here is that this passive gates Veigar out of competitive play, since there is not enough mana to farm Q and harass at the same time, and his overal short ranges and Dark Matter's delay make it very hard for him to hit anything without landing Event Horizon first, otherwise he runs the risk of getting melted in seconds.

Third. Veigar's role in the game is nuke. He is one of the so called immovible mages, one that is specially designed to counter other mages by using his ultimate. His champion archetpe sacrifices mobility and has high mana costs in exchange for high damage potential. If caught, he has little chance to live (and Veigar is particulary weak to the "in your face" assassins which are popular nowadays). Lee Sin is, on the other hand, is an early game assassin and late game bruiser. he has quite a lot of damage potential thanks to % hp lost second Q and the absurd base damage of his ultimate, a point and click insta cast skill. What is he trading for that? Because if it's only the fact that is melee, on a champion whith a 1100 range skillshot that serves as gap closer and while having a 700 range escape skill which can be used to a ward you place yourself, then it doesn't really seem like a fair trade.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 16, 20152 votes

The irony here is that this passive gates Veigar out of competitive play, since there is not enough mana to farm Q and harass at the same time, and his overal short ranges and Dark Matter's delay make it very hard for him to hit anything without landing Event Horizon first, otherwise he runs the risk of getting melted in seconds.

The real irony is that this is a design feature in his kit.

Veigar is supposed to have a dumpster tier early game so that he can bloom into full supervillain mode late game.

MajorPain9Feb 15, 20151 votes

Those posts have already been made. Numerous times.

UdoIkOSc4uFeb 15, 20153 votes

aoe too

mack9112Feb 15, 20155 votes

What is toxic are these boards

ThumpinFeb 15, 20155 votes

Why the fuck are you all comparing Veigar to Lee Sin?

Stay stupid.

NielarkenFeb 16, 20151 votes

you can compare lee to anyone because lee can literally do what ever the fuck he wants because he will scale with what ever item he gets and his kit can fit every role.

CindikleFeb 15, 20154 votes

Please stop comparing to champions that are obviously toxic to the game. And you're comparing two champion with vastly different kits. Comparing it to Syndra would be more accurate.

yellowbricksFeb 15, 20153 votes

It's the same bullshit riot spewed during the Cass rework. You all have my condolences.

ZeroAnarchyFeb 15, 20153 votes

Then you realize that one is melee and the other is ranged.

KingsgraveFeb 15, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Then you realize that one is melee and the other is ranged.

"melee" "2 gap closers on low CDs" "350 ms compared to 335" "melee"

ZeroAnarchyFeb 15, 20152 votes

Stupid comments like these is why riot doesn't listen to the boards. People are such idiots.

KingsgraveFeb 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Stupid comments like these is why riot doesn't listen to the boards. People are such idiots.

Melee is irrelevant when he has the ability to close the gap constantly.

Darius is actually limited by his Melee range. Lee isn't.

Veigar barely takes advantage of his Range anyway compared to something like Ahri.

WhereTheNamesAtFeb 15, 20151 votes

"melee" "pull longer than most aa ranges" "true damage ult" "melee"

ReazaleFeb 15, 20153 votes

And then u realize that lee Q outranges Veigar

FasmodeyFeb 15, 20152 votes

I dont like Veigar changes and Lee Sin but let's be honest they're not same champions.

MadraFeb 15, 20152 votes

They should list ratios on the ingame tooltip. A lot of people probably don't realize that Lee Sin has 200% bonus AD scaling on his ult, 180% bonus AD scaling on his Q and 100% bonus AD scaling on his cripple. I mean, 600 base damage +200% AD scaling on an AoE ability that combines utility and CC on a base 60 second cooldown.

Sure the pros don't build him DPS but every top lane and jungle smurf is building Lee Sin and Jarven IV full damage and deleting people. The worse thing is that the character's gameplay is so binary. You manage to land a Q, which you will sooner or later thanks to his energy system, and the rest is just so textbook.

PiVoRxFeb 15, 20152 votes

if veigar is toxic to play against then what about riven?

WhereTheNamesAtFeb 15, 20151 votes

just cuz one's toxic doesn't mean the other isn't. In their respective lanes Riven and Veigar are both toxic.

AmachyFeb 15, 20152 votes

Did somebody say low toxic cd point and click op ult all in one sentence? Fiora

LlaniteFeb 15, 20152 votes

1/ Lee ult has melee range, if you dodge stuff well, it can't really pull. Meanwhile, Veigar R has 700 range - read: he hits everyone.

2/ Lee has no stun to secure his R, Veigar does.

3/ Lee doesnt gain 1 AP for every cs.

Not saying Veigar is more OP, but in a vacuum Veigar R hits harder, faster and easier to pull.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20152 votes

Still Lee Sin is way more OP in general. His insane pick rate proves it.

AFK PushFeb 16, 20152 votes

Veigar an immobile mage, is only "toxic" to play against if the other person uses another immobile mage Karthus Malzahar etc. These nerfs just make all of the mobile mids stronger, and is making another immobile mage near unplayable in those matchups.

KelgFeb 15, 20151 votes

Kalista

SammystormFeb 15, 20151 votes

Good arguments there. You really made a solid case for your argument. I really found the "LOW CANCER CD AOE TOO" thought provoking and a well that out criticism.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 15, 20151 votes

Veigar's ult does so much more damage than Lee's it's not even funny, so this isn't really a valid comparison. I'd like to see Lee do over 1K damage to a mage with his ult.

The boards truly does pick the stupidest comparisons to whine about for the strong champions.

A better, but exaggerated in the same way as your original comparison would be like "HOLY FKING SHIT LEE ULT DOES LIKE 20X MORE DAMAGE THAN NAUT ULT WHILE HAVE ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF UTILITY AND IS AN A LOW CANCER CD"

or something similar