The Gragas Rework was a failure

Drunk Rummate·Jan 27, 2015·33 votes·4,900 views

Gragas has been sitting at a 40-45% winrate and 2% popularity for the entire month of January.

Riot, face it : you messed up here. Gragas needs to be addressed again, whether you help his numbers out or address the way his kit works again.

Maybe the Q should not have to sit around charging to deal any meaningful damage. Or maybe the W should not disable his ability to cast E.

He just feels clunky and his damage and waveclear is really lackluster. Give him a direction or niche or something because right now he's just a waste of space.

48 Comments

GanksLikeGast0nJan 27, 201517 votes

Personally I felt his rework was a success until they put a mana cost on drunken rage. As soon as they did that a mana item became required and he could no longer go tanky AP bruiser, or off-tank bruiser.

Kulstor EbroughJan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Personally I felt his rework was a success until they put a mana cost on drunken rage. As soon as they did that a mana item became required and he could no longer go tanky AP bruiser, or off-tank bruiser.

I've thought this exactly.

I liked the rework, and I still do, but it just doesn't really work, and to me, that went into effect when they nerfed the minion damage on the barrels (I think?) and they made Drunken Rage cost mana.

The glaring problem with Gragas is in the tier list (as much as I hate looking at those). He has the Urgot problem... Where there isn't a single lane he can really do well in and requires a ton of work and skill to be good in the lane.

Ideally, I think every champ should be at least decent in one lane. Gragas is not.

Drunk RummateJan 27, 20151 votes

mmm, you're right. and perhaps i worded it incorrectly. gragas' kit is probably doing the right things, it's other factors that make him feel unplayable or "clunky" as i like to say.

bringing back his strength in lane would be cool. i've always imagined him as a lane bully with meh scaling but a good teamfight ultimate to make up for that. i dont know about giving him back waveclear, but at least some quality of life changes to the W and Q animations, and maybe remove the charging damage mechanic on his Q (and increasing it from the minimum) would do a lot for him.

ChessburgerJan 28, 20151 votes

I prefer jungling. Made a post of his issues in this thread if you want to read my opinion on it. It does indeed require a lot of skill and practice to get it to decent lvls but it's a challenge and it's fun. He'd just need a few changes that would also help him in lane. his kit outside of his W channel time has great synergy in my humble opinion.

CopelandoJan 28, 20151 votes

I think another thing that killed Gragas was the 70% damage to minions. It takes 3 barrels to kill caster minions early game.

I just want Gragas mid to be viable. They try to keep different playstyles for other champions (ex: ad and ap nidalee), but try to force gragas into one role. Before the rework, Gragas was overpowered in mid lane. After the rework and nerfs (30 mana on w, and 70% damage to minions on Q), he cannot be successfully played mid lane.

KingsgraveJan 27, 20156 votes

I really think they should focus on making him a jungler, but his Q and E feel really lackluster for it

Do they want him to build tank? Doesn't really have anything in his kit to reward him for that Do they want him to have good sustain? 50 or so health every 8 seconds isn't really sustain Do they want him to build AP? His ratios and base aren't exactly that high anymore

I really dislike how his E is this awesome 280 magic damage ability but you are forced to max Q and W before it. Can we get health damage on his E or something? Can it go back to the half reduction instead of 3 second reduction?

Drunk RummateJan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I really think they should focus on making him a jungler, but his Q and E feel really lackluster for it

Do they want him to build tank? Doesn't really have anything in his kit to reward him for that Do they want him to have good sustain? 50 or so health every 8 seconds isn't really sustain Do they want him to build AP? His ratios and base aren't exactly that high anymore

I really dislike how his E is this awesome 280 magic damage ability but you are forced to max Q and W before it. Can we get health damage on his E or something? Can it go back to the half reduction instead of 3 second reduction?

Really any of those would be fine, because it would at least give him a direction. Right now its just a bunch of low damage with some moderately useful CC, but why would anybody pick him over a similar champ like Lissandra who is safer, and deals more damage from a greater range?

I'd love to see him designed as a jungler really. It's obvious from past examples that as a top laner his design can be a bit oppressive, and as a midlaner he would just be the old gragas (which admittedly didn't make sense).

Gank in ProgressJan 28, 20152 votes

no, tank gragas is actually great. you go fulltank and a frozen gauntlet. that shit hurts. he has %dmg, tons of slows, aoe knockbacks and so on. everything a jungler needs. did i forget his HUGE playmaking potential with E -FLASH-R the enemy adc into your team? DONT change him.

CindikleJan 27, 20155 votes

The rework was fine. But he was overnerfed after that.

His rework went from him being OP in the mid lane and a decent junglers. To a situational mid lane/support. Good top lane. And still a decent jungler. He can currently be played in any roll but ADC. Although this was before the jungle changes.

I think changing, reverting or working around the nerf to the mana on drunken rage would do him a lot of good.

Mourn VallasJan 27, 20154 votes

YES gragas rewark was one of riots biggest failure rewards to date... IMO

PhoenixSlayer13Jan 27, 20153 votes

I'd be fine with Riot ironing out some of the kinks he has, but please, dear god please, do not make him a mage again.

Please.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 27, 20153 votes

Gragas has been bae ever since I began playing. Now, when I play him, it just feels kind of underpowering.

Bring my bae back, rito pls.

ChessburgerJan 28, 20153 votes

They need to shorten W channel time... There is no reason to silence yourself for 1 second for something that only works when you autoattack in melee range. If you have some cdr you're invalidated from the fight for a second every 4 seconds or less if you want to optimize your damage (you're effectively CC-ing yourself for 1/3 - 1/4 of a teamfight). As far as I know you can't even flash during channel time for W (I've died like that a few times). He also has mana issues, W should not cost any mana, or they need to rework the jungle ap item to give some mana back akin to the old spectral wraith item or put some mana regen on it. (reduce 10% cdr if they do that). The only way to viably play him imo is in the jungle and that is heavily gated by the massive mana consumption to the point where you either take every blue (your mids will dislike you) or you can only farm 2 camps then gank to use all your mana.

And despite butchering his bases and scalings (esp the Q change) he still works best as a full ap burst. The only tanky item that synergises well with him and only works in lane is Rod of Ages. And this is largely only because of the W channel time. You can't viably channel all the time (because it invalidates you for so long) for sustained damage, it's much more convenient to charge it up slam into someone and unleash full burst then back off until your cooldowns are up again. It also touches back on the mana costs: you can't sustain fight because your mana runs out as fast as a burst mage's.

Big Nasty MèatJan 28, 20152 votes

They wanted him to build tanky, so they destroyed his ability to clear waves unless he stacks AP.

Logic.

The reason he sucks is because he's supposed to be a lane bully, but he can't bully his lane without building mana. But if you build mana, you sacrifice your power spike and get outscaled quickly.

TheRainInSpainJan 28, 20152 votes

Gragas' direction is supposed to be a drunken fighter, so a chunky melee AP mage. You can't exactly run Sunfire Cape first (Garen mains), nor can you build pure AP. A good direction to go in my opinion is first into Iceborn Gauntlet or Rod of Ages (both in your setup should be grand) and then full tank items to make you an AP bruiser.

ChargeItDownMidJan 28, 20152 votes

[deleted]

Shy ChibiJan 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Honestly wouldn't call it a failure. He saw a decent amount of play after his rework without being overbearing. His rework put him into a good place. Subsequent changes have caused him to fall off but honestly, there are many many other champions who haven't seen play in years that need to be buffed to viability before gragas. On top of that, gragas isn't a top pick but he is much closer than many other champions.

He currently has the lowest win rate and is in the bottom 15 least played(indicating a problem). But yes there are other champs who need looking at more then Graggy right now. I would like to think his VU is comming soon though maybe they will actually give him some attention then.

Kulstor EbroughJan 28, 20152 votes

I think the glaring problem with Gragas is Riot now suggests him as a jungler (he's honestly not bad at it either), but they don't have him ironed out well enough to support it as effectively. Overall, has had jungle mage items, but the only mage they've really paid tribute to working in the jungle is Fiddlesticks... At this point, I think Gragas is just there to say "Oh no, there is another mage choice... See, Gragas. Oh, and also that one cloaking lady."

Like I stated earlier, ideally, every champ needs to have one lane they are decent at. Gragas does not. He requires a good bit of skill to play Top, Mid, Supp, and Jng. He doesn't excel at anything, he's barely in the category of Jack of Trades. Because by definition, a Jack of Trades is at least decent at everything, but excels at nothing, he doesn't even have the decent part down.

TL;DR: Gragas isn't a Jack of Trades, he's more a Jack of Tards.

RaptameiJan 28, 20152 votes

He should be turned back into a mage. The rework made no sense.

Kulstor EbroughJan 28, 20152 votes

I don't think Gragas should ever go back to his old playstyle unless Riot wants to embrace it and give him a Mario or DK skin, because other than the fact he would autoattack melee... he would ONLY roll barrels. In fact, his old Drunken Rage was only really used to honestly regenerate mana... So he could roll more barrels... There was no drunken brawler in his old self... Just... Barrel Roller.

I like the kit, and I agree with Apulminate that he CAN scale well into late game, but the problem is... It requires too much skill than its worth to play him in any position, and even so, the amount of skill it takes to play him well, there are plenty of others that can do it with far less effort, or can outplay it with equal skill.

PoshrielJan 27, 20151 votes

His waveclear is completely ridiculous still. And honestly, I believe the only thing that needs to be done is to change the w being able to be charged without locking your out of your e. The whole point to gragas' dash is to get the knock up, and to close the distance. So why would you make him have a channeled w if you couldn't use your catch up/stun mechanism to get that auto attack off? His ult is still completely ridiculous in team fights.

PoshrielJan 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

His waveclear is completely ridiculous still. And honestly, I believe the only thing that needs to be done is to change the w being able to be charged without locking your out of your e. The whole point to gragas' dash is to get the knock up, and to close the distance. So why would you make him have a channeled w if you couldn't use your catch up/stun mechanism to get that auto attack off? His ult is still completely ridiculous in team fights.

Looking at it, he's a very good pick against assassins, because of his innate tank nature. And I've played games where I sacrificed being bursty to get that anti-assassin status.

Shy ChibiJan 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

His waveclear is completely ridiculous still. And honestly, I believe the only thing that needs to be done is to change the w being able to be charged without locking your out of your e. The whole point to gragas' dash is to get the knock up, and to close the distance. So why would you make him have a channeled w if you couldn't use your catch up/stun mechanism to get that auto attack off? His ult is still completely ridiculous in team fights.

With 290 ap @ 24 min he cant kill caster creeps with a fully charged Q, his waveclear is terrible.

PoshrielJan 28, 20151 votes

No, but it can hit both caster minions and melee at the same time, and if you know how to set it up you can clear a wave pretty quick. But that's really not what makes him good in the first place. His area control is ridiculous. You're either in range of his e, have to walk around his barrel, have to avoid getting knocked backwards into his e range (yadda yadda yadda). Overall he's decent, it's just hard to not telegraph your e with your w channel. And that messes up a lot of his combo's. Also if you happen to have to duel with gragas as a tankier champ, just run. No point because he's hitting you for percentage health ever 4 seconds. And his dash allows him to interrupt you.

Shy ChibiJan 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, but it can hit both caster minions and melee at the same time, and if you know how to set it up you can clear a wave pretty quick. But that's really not what makes him good in the first place. His area control is ridiculous. You're either in range of his e, have to walk around his barrel, have to avoid getting knocked backwards into his e range (yadda yadda yadda). Overall he's decent, it's just hard to not telegraph your e with your w channel. And that messes up a lot of his combo's. Also if you happen to have to duel with gragas as a tankier champ, just run. No point because he's hitting you for percentage health ever 4 seconds. And his dash allows him to interrupt you.

Yes you can hit all 6/7 minions with one barrel, but it takes at least another barrel(80+80 mana) or a bodyslam (80+50 mana) to instantly kill just caster creeps. Furthermore you need to be able to farm with your barrels in a range match up, or if you get behind, as well as harass your opponent. Gragas struggles to function in lane now because of the nerfs in patch 4.13 and the recent mana changes.

PoshrielJan 28, 20151 votes

I guess I just don't feel it as much.

TabsJan 27, 20151 votes

He doesn't feel as fun to play anymore, which is a shame because I received Santa Gragas as my mystery gift skin from Riot.

OrangesilkJan 27, 20151 votes

Wasn't he an important pick at worlds?, I think he's like Alistar in how wildly different he plays when played by a pro compared to a non-pro, pushbacks are extremely powerful abilities, especially Gragas'

Drunk RummateJan 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't he an important pick at worlds?, I think he's like Alistar in how wildly different he plays when played by a pro compared to a non-pro, pushbacks are extremely powerful abilities, especially Gragas'

since being a contested pick in competitive he's actually been nerfed. his winrate in competitive was actually pretty mediocre as well. i believe professionals overestimated his base stats. we saw a lot of tank gragas players who almost always lost, and we saw some deathcap + lich bane gragas' who won a little more. since then his waveclear has been nerfed by 30% on his Q though, so the deathcap gragas is worse.

junglerboy16Jan 27, 20151 votes

It isn't a question of "Pro vs non-pro" it is a question of balance. Both Alistar and Gragas have the issue that as soon as they become decently viable, their kits immediately flip into being totally OP. They are always either super UP or super OP, and they flop between win rates in the low 40s with awful pick rate to win rates in the high 50s with pick or ban status.

AccountaBilabudyJan 27, 20151 votes

Q and E are fine. It's his W that makes him feel clunky. Adding a mana cost was a bad idea. If they gave him back his OLD OLD W from 2 years ago that reduced damage taken for like 12 seconds then he would be in a good spot as a tanky AP that could jungle.

Cows Are HolyJan 28, 20151 votes

at least revert some of the nerfs after the rework! Even after the rework he found a home in top lane and support

Gank in ProgressJan 28, 20151 votes

I like gragas the way he is. he is balanced. i like him as a jungler, im playing in diamond. hes good. dont change him.

ErockandrollJan 28, 20151 votes

I currently have Gragas in my back Pocket as a Junger. Will likely pull him out in an AD heavy comp.

Start with the Magus enchantment. (not sure what base item though) Then you can start prioritizing tank.

In the past I tried the Juggernaut enchantment. But you really can't sacrifice the clear speed by not going Magus. I would Probably go for a mix of Health and sustain.

item 3708 item 3065 item 3083 item 3111 item 3143 Couple of Ideas for Items in to Particular Order. I prefer to Itemize Health due to his sustain passive.

eyes wide shutJan 28, 20151 votes

gragas hits like a fucking truck, the problem is that he sucks in midlane. hitting his Q against all the mobile assassins in mid these days is just, meh.

CyradJan 28, 20151 votes

I really loved the idea of turning him into an AP Fighter/Tank but his W is just clunky and not fun at all. Strangely, I also think his sustain is also too strong and could be brought down to make him stronger in other areas.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 28, 20151 votes

The W should not disable his ability to cast E.

Uhh won't he vomit if he drinks while jumping at the same time?

CoolKnightSTJan 28, 20151 votes

His rework was a succes till they overnerfed him offcourse. He lost everything his new kit stands for:

Burst on his W
Sustain from his passive
Some damage from his Q

Whe just need our lane bully into lategame tank back. He need some tweaks but and I think it has mostly todo with his scaling. An change I really want to see on him:

Drunken Rage: Buff his base damage values again & let it scale with bonus health.
Body Slam: Replace the AP scaling with maximum health scaling. He litterly smash his belly against the enemy. Look more to health scaling to me.

That would mean Gragas has:

Q: AP scaling
W: Bonus Health & AP scaling
E: Maximum Health scaling
R: AP scaling

It would fit his build a lot of better. So will he probaly rush item 3136 for snowballing or take the item 3027 route for slow scaling. Gragas is no longer the mage he ones was. Just increase his potentional as a AP bruiser & let him him scale better from tanky items.

VenowolfJan 28, 20151 votes

The manacost in his W was an overnerf, actually he need some attention his kit is fine but need some numbers tweaks.

ApulminateJan 28, 20151 votes

In my experience Gragas in his current state scales well into late game with the proper itemization. He currently has poor scaling but great base on his abilities very similar to Elise. Prioritizing magic pen items makes him deal a good amount of damage. item 3020 item 3027 item 3068 item 3065 item 3151 item 3135

vonGroopahJan 28, 20151 votes

Purposefully making Drunken Rage clunky to use goes against Riot's design philosophy and is a balancing tool that I'd sooner expect to see in DotA2.

StarlighteJan 28, 20151 votes

Good. The champion was a toxic as fuck mid-laner with an absurd amount of base stats, damage, mobility, and sustain. I'll take league of "Urgot-tier Gragas" any day.

Kulstor EbroughJan 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Good. The champion was a toxic as fuck mid-laner with an absurd amount of base stats, damage, mobility, and sustain. I'll take league of "Urgot-tier Gragas" any day.

Yeah, but if a game is prided to be full of diversity, and if it's not intended to be a joke character to begin with, then there shouldn't be a single character in the game that is completely Under Powered or completely Over Powered as its just natural standing. I'm pretty sure that's where the argument is.

Champs like Gragas and Urgot are pretty Under Powered, and for no real reason other than negligence.

StarlighteJan 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kulstor Ebrough,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wmlsQEi4,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2015-01-28T21:12:07.767+0000)

Yeah, but if a game is prided to be full of diversity, and if it's not intended to be a joke character to begin with, then there shouldn't be a single character in the game that is completely Under Powered or completely Over Powered as its just natural standing. I'm pretty sure that's where the argument is.

Champs like Gragas and Urgot are pretty Under Powered, and for no real reason other than negligence.

This is where you are wrong. Riot has been very clear that until they get to reworking certain champions, their kit or playstyle is so intrinsically toxic to the game they will be nerfed into oblivion and made unplayable. Alistar, Urgot, Poppy, and now Gragas all fit into this category.

Kulstor EbroughJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is where you are wrong. Riot has been very clear that until they get to reworking certain champions, their kit or playstyle is so intrinsically toxic to the game they will be nerfed into oblivion and made unplayable. Alistar, Urgot, Poppy, and now Gragas all fit into this category.

That is respectable and all, but I think where the gripe and such comes from (like this topic) is when they say they're planning on doing something like that, but they just throw other things in the way of it instead. The names you mentioned have been long time awaited characters to be updated, and then people are just further frustrated when it's announced, "Here's an update for Lee Sin!" (not really, but you get the idea).

For example, whenever they announce a visual update for a character. Name three champs that fans constantly bring up that could REALLY could have used the update more.

Mordekaiser Taric Poppy

This is what a ton of people are annoyed about. Going back to the main topic of Gragas. As you can read, not many people are angry about his new kit. There are a ton that are quite happy he is no longer just a barrel roller. It's that there was a lot of work to balance out the new kit, then just "Oookay, well this doesn't work, so we'll leave it be... Oh, right. Let's update Jax."