What's with these Ahri nerfs?

Drunk Rummate·Jan 19, 2015·38 votes·5,675 views

I thought she was getting compensation for the removal of DFG?

They're removing the damage amplification from her charm and giving her an additional 0.15 scaling and 20 base damage (at rank 5). What? That's a huge nerf. Especially if you factor in the loss of DFG.

The movement speed on Q is nice... but 1/3 of the time you're using it is on a charmed target so it doesn't even make a difference and 30 damage on rank 5 foxfire is minimal.

She's going to be a lane bully with no kill potential in the midgame and not enough damage in the late game. Not enough damage to justify the fact that her range is significantly lower than a champ like Xerath or Azir. Not enough damage to justify how much of her damage is single target.

135 Comments

Neo CyrusJan 19, 201534 votes

They know this and they don't give a fuck. They'll spend 6 months saying they need more data and testing and their internal testing team think it's OP like they did for Cass. Then 2 years will pass by and everything else in the game has been nerfed 5 times over so Ahri becomes viable again, so the toolbags will come out and say "See, she was always fine".

Remember kids, 1.2*1.2=1.44. Ahri is losing 44% damage amplification in exchange for 20 base damage on E at max level, 0.15 ratio on E, 30 base damage on W at max level, and a 1/5th of a second speed boost on Q. Yeah, that's totally worth losing that 44% damage. Not.

Edit: Well apparently mobility is king. Zipping around stinging people like a mosquito is apparently way more powerful than 44% damage amp in terms of how it actually ends up being used. Seems like a lot of people couldn't actually land a full amped combo.

MatezoideJan 19, 201522 votes

Ahri was never supposed to be an Assassin. Riot is shifting her back into Mage.

MalganaJan 19, 201518 votes

{quoted}

Ahri was never supposed to be an Assassin. Riot is shifting her back into Mage.

She's had the secondary tag of Assassin since release though.

NarasimhaJan 19, 201510 votes

secondary tag of Assassin

So has Xerath, incidentally. Thats why you go off their PRIMARY.

Vistha KaiJan 19, 20159 votes

That's why she has "Assassin" tag since always.

BudupopsJan 19, 20158 votes

shifting her to trash

AuryielJan 20, 20152 votes

So where are the buffs that make her feel like a mage?

lol

They should make Q's cd lower by 0.5 second per rank and make her E deal AoE damage around the target hit (not mass-charm everyone, just make it do damage)

Miku Hime samaJan 20, 20153 votes

Better question: where's the compensation for DFG?

As far as I can tell, Riot intentionally propagandized lies to us as an excuse to make a full-body rework to her kit. Which is completely irrelevant to the removal of DFG.

Insanity 101Jan 19, 201522 votes

Am I the only one who's happy about these changes here?

Sure she needs a bit more buffs (I am sure Riot will do that someday if we QQ enough or if her win rate drops by 20% on the next patch), but I can play Mage Ahri again. It is WAAAAY more fun that that stupid ulti in>charm at point blank range>DFG>OMFGWTFBBQ THE ENEMY ADC>Die/Escape and throw qs and ws while waiting for teamfight to end. And a lot of Ahri players were complaining about the fact that she is forced to function as a binary burst assassin.

Now everyone is complaining because Riot turned her back into a Mage like she was orriginally designed.

I can now understand why Riot rarely ever listens to the community anymore....

tainteddazeJan 19, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Insanity 101,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hFtpwq8N,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-01-19T17:46:06.058+0000)

Am I the only one who's happy about these changes here?

Sure she needs a bit more buffs (I am sure Riot will do that someday if we QQ enough or if her win rate drops by 20% on the next patch), but I can play Mage Ahri again. It is WAAAAY more fun that that stupid ulti in>charm at point blank range>DFG>OMFGWTFBBQ THE ENEMY ADC>Die/Escape and throw qs and ws while waiting for teamfight to end. And a lot of Ahri players were complaining about the fact that she is forced to function as a binary burst assassin.

Now everyone is complaining because Riot turned her back into a Mage like she was orriginally designed.

I can now understand why Riot rarely ever listens to the community anymore....

adding 30 damage to a skill at max ranks doesn't bring back mage ahri do you understand that and making her q slightly faster doesn't do that either. If they wanted to bring back mage ahri her w needs a big buff to its damage almost to the levels of release ahri before the constant nerfs. They are removing a item that does 15% of max hp to a target and boosts damage done to target for 30 damage at max rank. Imo they could just up ap scaling on the move and add more reduced damage on 2nd and 3rd hit of w to the same target to make the 2nd and 3rd hit the same damage values as now while adding more power to the first charge for her mage power in team fights goes up slightly.

AèrithJan 19, 201510 votes

I thought they were going to just revert Ahri back to pre-rework state, but this charm and foxfire buff is just... meh.

NakawakaJan 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

adding 30 damage to a skill at max ranks doesn't bring back mage ahri do you understand that and making her q slightly faster doesn't do that either. If they wanted to bring back mage ahri her w needs a big buff to its damage almost to the levels of release ahri before the constant nerfs. They are removing a item that does 15% of max hp to a target and boosts damage done to target for 30 damage at max rank. Imo they could just up ap scaling on the move and add more reduced damage on 2nd and 3rd hit of w to the same target to make the 2nd and 3rd hit the same damage values as now while adding more power to the first charge for her mage power in team fights goes up slightly.

Or they can revert the changes to Ahri.

With the charm amp she's pigeon holed as an assassin and now she's pigeon-holed into a kite-mage. Originally she can be be built as either roles based on what you buy.

Pika310Jan 19, 20156 votes

Except Riot WANTED her to be where she's at: reliant on Charm and rewarded for using it successfully. Now the new balance team is backpedaling on both Riot's original AND current design philosophies, but refuse to create usable numbers or meaningful interactions and rewards.

Riot is punishing Ahri for something they themselves wanted for her. We the players are only allowed to sit back and watch as the balance team destroys this game.

Insanity 101Jan 20, 20151 votes

adding 30 damage to a skill at max ranks doesn't bring back mage ahri

Which is why I said she needed a few more buffs dear. :P

Emmy Cha0sJan 20, 20153 votes

Or at least NOT a nerf.

DecaedeusJan 19, 20155 votes

Ahri players were complaining about the fact that she is forced to function as a binary burst assassin.

Can you post a link? I've never seen such a comment.

MalganaJan 19, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Insanity 101,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hFtpwq8N,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-01-19T17:46:06.058+0000)

Am I the only one who's happy about these changes here?

Sure she needs a bit more buffs (I am sure Riot will do that someday if we QQ enough or if her win rate drops by 20% on the next patch), but I can play Mage Ahri again. It is WAAAAY more fun that that stupid ulti in>charm at point blank range>DFG>OMFGWTFBBQ THE ENEMY ADC>Die/Escape and throw qs and ws while waiting for teamfight to end. And a lot of Ahri players were complaining about the fact that she is forced to function as a binary burst assassin.

Now everyone is complaining because Riot turned her back into a Mage like she was orriginally designed.

I can now understand why Riot rarely ever listens to the community anymore....

The problem is that Riot likes to do things without thinking of the consequences involved, it's the same reasoning behind why they wont nerf Lee Sin except that they apparently don't give a fuck about anyone who plays anything besides Lee Sin.

They'll go and make Skarner a tank with huge sticking potential and say "Hey look he's an awesome sticky tank!" then they'll turn around and remove that play style after it's gathered a huge player base saying "We never intended for him to be this way" after redacting all the stuff they said praising it before. People bought Skarner for that exact reason, he was excellent at locking down a single target in a fight, but now he's just a sub-par gank machine that transitions into a shitty bruiser late game.

Twitch used to be an amazing poke champion as well, but now his passive has been nerfed to the point where he may as well just not have one. 6 damage over 6 seconds is non-existent, and even if you manage to stack it up the damage is healed faster than it ticks with just the 3% lifesteal from a Doran's blade.

The gist of it is that Riot likes to build stuff up and then break it down for no reason other than they felt like it, then they'll turn around and straight up lie to millions of players about why it had to happen, and everyone just takes it.

Drunk RummateJan 19, 201514 votes

Can we stop bitching about each other's supposed rank and actually talk about the topic?

the fact that she has comparable damage to Xerath (worse on W, slightly higher on Q) but about 600 less range average on all of her abilities is really sad right now.

why pick ahri and dance around the enemy's CC when you can pick Xerath and do the same damage from the safety of your nexus with infinite mana on your passive as your only risk?

there needs to be some benefit for exposing yourself to the enemy like Ahri does relative to Xerath. currently I'm not seeing that. in the past it was her ability to 1 shot a carry with DFG. that's a pretty damn good benefit. now her full combo will leave her target with enough health to escape safely.

Linna ExcelJan 19, 201512 votes

Ahri is losing a 120 AP item, 30% on her ratios, and the damage amp.

Riot has no idea what a buff, nerf, or compensation is anymore. That explains a lot.

tainteddazeJan 19, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hFtpwq8N,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-19T16:17:40.351+0000)

Ahri is losing a 120 AP item, 30% on her ratios, and the damage amp.

Riot has no idea what a buff, nerf, or compensation is anymore. That explains a lot.

did you think they would be doing any real power buff to her. I mean i seen this coming and the next people they add buffs to will be about the same. This is what riot does. Nerf the fuck out something then add trash small buffs after small buffs for months and months until the champion is so strong that it is used none stop then they nerf it hardcore again and do the same thing over and over. They have no real balance ideas or tatics its been like this for a long time now i don't see how you thought it would change. Imo just play the game and learn all the champions like i have done. Then you have no real care who the fuck they nerf or buff cause you can just swap around to what is good if you want to win none stop. Or can try to master that champion how you want to play it and not care about losing.

LakegaJan 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

did you think they would be doing any real power buff to her. I mean i seen this coming and the next people they add buffs to will be about the same. This is what riot does. Nerf the fuck out something then add trash small buffs after small buffs for months and months until the champion is so strong that it is used none stop then they nerf it hardcore again and do the same thing over and over. They have no real balance ideas or tatics its been like this for a long time now i don't see how you thought it would change. Imo just play the game and learn all the champions like i have done. Then you have no real care who the fuck they nerf or buff cause you can just swap around to what is good if you want to win none stop. Or can try to master that champion how you want to play it and not care about losing.

Exactly.. Ever since S2 I've been saying this.. Riot has no goals on balance, they give no shits to make this game balanced. They will consistantly buff/nerf champs for no reason what so ever, and or give bs reasons for it... for eternity... This is to make it seem to the players that there is always something going on, new updates and revisions making the game better, when in reality, you're being lied too and spun in circles, while you're told you're always going straight.

Linna ExcelJan 20, 20156 votes

I was not expecting a raw buff, but if they say they are compensating for the loss of a go-to damage item then I would not expect the straight up nerf that was given.

I expect riot to be honest and to realize that words have particular meanings and they should choose words that most closely fit their intentions. If they had come out and said "we are going to nerf Ahri because screw Ahri fans" then I would expected something along the lines of a nerf.

Language only works when both sides can understand one another. Saying one thing and doing another makes it clear you either do not have clear understanding of what you are saying or you are a liar.

Pika310Jan 20, 20154 votes

Language only works when both sides can understand one another. Saying one thing and doing another makes it clear you either do not have clear understanding of what you are saying or you are a liar.

Welcome to the suffering of Sona players. Currently 9+ months and still going strong.

ArcaneFoxJan 19, 201512 votes

I agree 100%. As an Ahri main, its very upsetting. The biggest thing that bothers me is when they shifted to a damage amplicfication on her charm Riot was all like "This is what Ahri should be, this is how we want her play style to be" and now they are like Eff that lets take it away.

There will be no separating good ahris from the bad ones. Landing a charm currently adds an exciting element to the game,and if you miss it puts ahri at risk of some serious poke or counter play. Its a FUN element. I dont understand why they are taking this away. It feels like a hidden agenda to nerf ahri when she was in a pretty good play.

I honestly dont care if they take away DFG, but please DO NOT take away the charm buff! Why would Riot all of a sudden want to remove it and thin they are buffing her? I dont understand. Oh, and lets ruin Mana regen, ruin chalice and also increase teh cost of morellonomicon. Have fun mid lane mages. Such sad. These changes are a nerf accross the board for Mages and this charm change just harmed Ahri even more than she already was.

DecaedeusJan 19, 20159 votes

I agree with this statement. Ahri was technically a pretty healthy assassin; while she had respectable waveclear, like Zed, it was possible to mana-choke her and make her unable to combo you post-6. Her burst combo had counterplay compared to other assassins, (I'm looking at you, Fizz) and Ahri occupied a unique niche in the champion pool, as a hybrid assassin-mage who poked around before dashing around.

Her kit was delicately balanced between assassin and mage, but slightly skewed toward the assassin playstyle. The removal of DFG was already a large enough impact, and would have pushed Ahri back into a good balance. However, this complete shift in Ahri's playstyle makes her Assassin side null and void.

AbyssphereJan 19, 20158 votes

A lot of you guys don't get the problem. "They're making her into a mage again!" is not a good thing when they're doing that just by destroying assassin Ahri. They need to make her into a mage by making mage Ahri good, not just by destroying her other options.

RifticJan 20, 20156 votes

{quoted}

A lot of you guys don't get the problem. "They're making her into a mage again!" is not a good thing when they're doing that just by destroying assassin Ahri. They need to make her into a mage by making mage Ahri good, not just by destroying her other options.

Thank you. I wish more people would understand this. The destruction of Assassin Ahri in order to make her mage playstyle better is absolutely insane. It's like taking LeBlanc, gutting her ability to assassinate people, and then turning her into a more mage-like champion. It's part of Ahri's identity, it's why many people play her, and it's fun to play her that way.

This is all on top of the fact that the charm amp is actually good design - it creates a skill-rewarding scenario and also generates internal kit synergy. It offers the healthiest counterplay available to any assassin (dodge the charm/flash the charm/ qss the charm to avoid 20% of her incoming damage) .Taking that away is a huge step backwards and makes no sense.

We also probably shouldn't be ignoring the "changes" on the PBE that end up being massive nerfs to every kind of Ahri playstyle except this new kiting one that does no damage that Riot seems to think that she needs. We don't need more kiting. It's not a fun or healthy mechanic.

What we need are changes that preserve Ahri's current strengths in light of the removal of DFG. I don't know why Riot's trying to reinvent the wheel here, all they're going to do is destroy one of the game's more fun and balanced champions.

SinlaireJan 19, 20157 votes

only more time to do damage theoretically speaking. if she gets caught she stills dies. Akali Kat and Zed will probably find her movement speed "cute" at best and just jump in and kill her. they only time her move speed is gonna help is with skillshot dodging, displacement, and working around immobile champs. but of course counter pick is easy because all you have to do is see an Ahri is getting selected and find somerone who wont have problems catching the fox by her tail.

the charm boost removal is a major nerf on a major nerf. they compunded the DFG removal with yet another issue entirely. they said mage champs would get minor tweaks to compensate with nothing huge and then immediately after they jumped into a straight kit overhaul that is clearly going to be "interesting" if not blatantly catastrophic.

RifticJan 19, 20157 votes

To Riot:

I have no idea what you're even thinking. She's supposed to be getting compensated for a core item being removed, so what do you do? You drastically cut her damage at all stages of the game - even before taking the removal of DFG into account!

If those PBE changes kept her charm amp, then these changes would be passable. It would compensate her assassin playstyle (which happens to be extremely popular, and might I add, fun) while also increasing the power of her lackluster mage style.

But what we've got now? Complete and utter destruction of a champion that's actually remarkably well balanced at the moment.

Factual numbers that show just how crippling the changes are: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2sv6xk/huge_ahri_nerfs_in_patch_52_currently_on_pbe/ http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2suuuf/warning_lots_of_numbers_ahris_changes_are_a_total/

But alas, you've shown time and time again that you are completely and utterly unable to listen to community feedback regarding seemingly simple issues (see Cassiopeia), or that you even possess enough knowledge of the game to not make horrible changes. At this point, I don't care anymore. Destroy my favorite champion. Go ahead. She was dead to me as soon as I knew you guys were making changes to her, because I simply cannot trust you (Riot) to do a good job.

ElphrihaimJan 20, 20155 votes

Alright, now that i've actually read the thread :V

I think that her Charm needs to maintain the damage amp because it fits really really nicely with her thematic.

It also creates a choice between assassination and kiting.

Namely:

Assassin Ahri lands Charm and throws Q immediately for maximum damage.

Mage Ahri lands Charm and delays Q to maximize distance from the rest of the team.

So I do love the Q change, but I also think that it's not the right solution. I would have to play with it before I formed a real opinion :V

And really, Fokufu needs more buffs period. The ability feels incredibly weak and filler on her kit. Like Cassio's Q does-- it feels like a button that you hit and then ignore.

So instead of removing the Charm amplification, reduce the duration.

e.g. from 6 seconds to 3-4 seconds.

Then, remove the penalty for saving your Spirit Rushes (the CD starts on last cast instead of on first).

I'd prefer the MS effect be on her W as a passive, like the Furor enchant, instead of her Q [it'd force her to be closer to enemies and as a result make healthier gameplay].

Oh, and for her Q to get a few points of extra damage so it can more reliably clear waves. :V

The WhamboozlerJan 20, 20155 votes

Skarner. Cassiopeia. Olaf. Viktor. Now Ahri. At this rate there are enough champions I really liked to play that have been nerfed, gutted or just torn apart and rebuilt in ways that make me sad for me to make a whole team of them. I shall call it "shattered dreams".

I swear to god, if Lux is the next to go I'm done. She's already barely useable as it is. If they ruin my all-time favorite champ and part-time waifu I'm out.

Pika310Jan 20, 20154 votes

item 3070 Sona

AquariusGineJan 19, 20154 votes

Would be nice if they gave her 280 + 0.8AP on W again. Then she can pick out isolated targets and I'm sure mage Ahri would be a blast to play

PentaJumpJan 20, 20154 votes

Was too busy being upset about them ruining AP Trist despite claiming they wanted to keep her in the game. Totally didn't notice what they were doing to Ahri. Wow. Even if my champ is being deleted, I feel bad for you guys! I don't understand RIOT's balance team sometimes..

MannysmokerJan 19, 20152 votes

have you realized that Ahri 's charm is an unhealthy ability, such as Swain 's torment are bad for the game. reasons of why Cassiopeia will get or got nerfed. damage amplification is a bad mechanic for the game.

excepting Vladimir 's hemoplague cuz it got nerfed from 18% to 12% and is an ultimate with a long as CD.

Drunk RummateJan 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

have you realized that 's charm is an unhealthy ability, such as 's torment are bad for the game. reasons of why will get or got nerfed. damage amplification is a bad mechanic for the game.

excepting 's hemoplague cuz it got nerfed from 18% to 12% and is an ultimate with a long as CD.

whether the damage amp is unhealthy or not isn't really the topic here. even if you're right (which is debatable) and damage amp on charm is a bad mechanic, Ahri's kit has been designed around that damage amplification. so even if it's a bad mechanic and has to be removed, she needs significant buffs to keep her at a similar level (which was very close to a balanced 50% winrate).

GiovarcoJan 19, 20153 votes

Ahri is a burst mage, Swain and Cassiopeia are dps mage, so why can't he have a damage amplification?

MalganaJan 19, 201513 votes

{quoted}

have you realized that 's charm is an unhealthy ability, such as 's torment are bad for the game. reasons of why will get or got nerfed. damage amplification is a bad mechanic for the game.

excepting 's hemoplague cuz it got nerfed from 18% to 12% and is an ultimate with a long as CD.

HOW are they bad for the game? give a reason rather than just saying they're bad because you don't like being hit by them. Also Cassiopeia never had damage amplification, ever, so I don't even know what you're mentioning her for.

MannysmokerJan 19, 20151 votes

Cassiopeia 's new twin fangs amplify her poison dmg by 50%

MalganaJan 19, 20156 votes

{quoted}

's new twin fangs amplify her poison dmg by 50%

That was given to her as part of the rework though, not as part of her old kit, which did not even really need to be reworked at all.

I'd bet that the only reason Riot trashed her is because that was their answer to the diamond script users that they couldn't be arsed to deal with. You can now literally cheat with this champion and still get shit on, which speaks volumes about how hard they hit her with these changes. Balancing a champions kit around trying to root out cheaters is pathetic.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 20, 20152 votes

She's no longer an assassin. She's a kiting mage, like she was before the assassin buffs. It is intentional, and I've talked to a TON of Ahri mains in other threads who are fine with it.

Emmy Cha0sJan 20, 20156 votes

Where are these anonymous Ahri mains you're talking about? Are they in the same place as Riot's secret tools they claim to have?

Because, as Ahri as my main for mid, I for one am NOT fine with her being nerfed in compensation for being nerfed. That's 2 nerfs, where the hell are the "compensations?" Riot is lying to us, they never intended to make any in the first place.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 20, 20153 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/v6k6K3zN-ahri-changes?comment=0002000100000000

This thread is the one I had in mind. She wasn't always a burst mage, and she'll be fine after. She might need some buffs again, but I feel like you are forgetting that there's more to this game than just damage. She's getting movespeed added to Q, as I understand it. That's a big deal.

Emmy Cha0sJan 20, 20155 votes

She might need some buffs again,

Or here's a better idea: how about Riot NOT blatantly nerf Ahri into 2nd tier?

They claimed they're compensating her for DFG. Where the hell is the compensation? These are just changes to herself, they aren't doing a damned thing about removing DFG.

Of course considering they killed Sona, I'm not at all surprised Riot is still lying to our faces.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 20, 20152 votes

See above. They gave her movespeed so she can transition to a safer, sustained damage mage. She isn't a burst champion anymore, and there's nothing wrong with that. Not sure why so much QQ. It isn't healthy for her to be an all-in assassin.

Emmy Cha0sJan 20, 20156 votes

I repeat: That's not compensation for DFG, that's just moving her kit around.

Let's try this again:

Where is the compensation for removing DFG?

ModKnightsKemplarJan 21, 20152 votes

You are deliberately misreading their intent. They are trying to make her not bursty. They are NOT going to compensate with more damage. That defeats the point of removing DFG. More movespeed IS a compensation.

Wînter FoxJan 21, 20153 votes

Ahri is, was, and always will be an Assassin as much as she is a Mage. She always used Q and E to poke and create opportunities, and always used W and R to go in for the kill. Nothing has changed that.
Being the Mage/Assassin that she is, she needs damage to be viable. Her movespeed on Q is a QoL change to skillfully hit her true damage and make escapes. It has basically nothing to do with her losing 44% amplification that needs to be compensated for her to be used.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 21, 20152 votes

Don't agree. I'll cite Ashe. She has a slow on her Q, where other champions have damage. True, she isn't considered God tier, or whatever, but she is still a decently balanced champ. And I know many of you think that Ahri is "as much Assassin as she is Mage," but many others disagree. I think she can be a kiting-type mage just fine. It's a good niche for a champ to fill, and Ahri fits the bill.