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Give Sterak's and veteran scars back to fighter/tank/juggernauts.

Gosh Darn··77 votes·2,541 views

Veteran scars never needed to be changed. It's a resolve mastery that works equally well on a squishy ADC as it does on a health stacking tank. The previous version was much better, it makes no sense that there's % damage in ferocity that tanks would have to pick up if they wanted some other mastery in that tree, but tanks can't have % health in their own tree.

Sterak's was also handled in the worst way possible. It was used as a single defensive item on champions that weren't supposed to be buying it like Yi and ADCs. Instead of making it so these champions couldn't use it as well they did that but also nerfed it by 100 hp. Change it to interact with HP excluding the hp granted by Sterak's itself so that it can't be the sole defensive item, and give it back the 100 hp it lost. Or just have it interact with bonus hp. The percentage could be changed slightly to reflect the 500 hp (after proposed buff) loss.

48 Comments

Beoridas27 votes

i once proposed to make it like warmog: triggers only at 3k hp or something.

Spoofghoul1 votes

^this

or shield scaling with bonus hp would work as well i guess if riot wants it to be less exclusive

Irelia Bot1 votes

Make it 1000 bonus health which most any semi defensive build would be able to get by a third item but marksmen who build all damage would not be able to make use of.

And up Sterak's to 500 health again.

Mordepool14 votes

Please

Wolftastic3312 votes

Make it something like 6% BONUS health, so that it's absolutely worthless without buying health.

Big Lincoln2 votes

that would be worthless on its own

Wolftastic333 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wj4M1iuw,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-02-27T13:28:16.455+0000)

that would be worthless on its own

Then do a higher percentage on the mastery, but keep it with bonus HP only.

ManiacalCoyote1 votes

How about we give it +25% bonus HP?

LankPants2 votes

Cinderhulk is 15% bonus HP, I don't think we need an mastery that's stronger than Cinder's passive TBH.

ManiacalCoyote1 votes

As a keystone, it wouldn't be that bad. I only started using Grasp on Nasus when Strength was disabled.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Are you sure you want new cho having this?

ManiacalCoyote1 votes

Yes, yes I do. I enjoy playing tanky champs who can dish out item 3078 (tons of damage) like Nasus Darius Chogath Singed and a +25% hp boost would help all of them, and all of my juggernauts.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Well at least I can still get a laugh from how delusional many juggernaut players are about the effects of an item being made as they want it.

Tradeoffs should be a real factor of item choices outside of one or 2 core items.

LankPants1 votes

The alternative to this would be a small flat amount and bonus HP, something like 5+1% bonus HP per rank, 25+5% bonus with 5 points invested.

This would be somewhat of a middle ground between the extreme lategame 8-10% BHP that would probably be needed for the mastery to work and the extreme early game 50 HP with no scaling.

Wolftastic331 votes

{quoted}

The alternative to this would be a small flat amount and bonus HP, something like 5+1% bonus HP per rank, 25+5% bonus with 5 points invested.

This would be somewhat of a middle ground between the extreme lategame 8-10% BHP that would probably be needed for the mastery to work and the extreme early game 50 HP with no scaling.

I'd actually love that, TBH

Wobly2 votes

This problem should be solved by the next roster update at midseason. They're planning on cutting down on the value of defensive stats you can get from items, but then boosting the base defensive stats of tanks and fighters. So once that goes through, it'll be easier to balance Steraks around the champs who actually should be building it. The item can be stronger on fighters with even less stats than it has now, since the passive will scale with their high base stats, while getting weaker for ranged champs at the same time.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

You make post about ADC and Master Yi abusing Sterak's and say it should be for Divers/Juggernauts/Tanks? Like nah, dude. It should be Juggernaut item. Divers don't deserve it. Tanks don't deserve it. I love this community. Only Ranged champs abuse items, bhaaaaaa. But let's ignore Divers abusing Assasin, Tanks and Juggernaut items, that's just fair. I don't see difference between Master Yi abusing Sterak's and Vi abusing Sterak's. Master Yi, ironically, without his ult is less sticky than Vi and requires more time than Vi to kill (only if he's extremly fed he catches up), so in this particular case, I am more fine with Master Yi building it as Skirmisher than her as Diver.

LankPants8 votes

It was pretty obvious from day 1 that divers were going to use Sterak's. Riot completely knew they would. If Riot specifically wanted divers not to use Sterak's they'd have made it not interact with Trinity Force. It's a pretty simple fix TBH, actually take a look at the divers who use it. The top non-juggernaut bruisers (just putting aside the diver label for a sec) are Vi, Irelia, GP, Renekton, Hecarim, Jax and Camille. With the exception of Renekton all of these champs are Tri Force users.

Believe me when I say Riot knew this would happen 100%. People were playing Sterak's Irelia and Jax on the PBE the second they figured out it was a 25% bump to Tri's damage, it just makes sense. Riot must have been OK for divers to use this item, if they weren't I highly doubt the Tri interaction would have stayed, it's not like there's actually any juggernaut who commonly builds both anyway.

On the tank front which tank are you even talking about? The closest thing to a tank in the top users of Sterak's is Hecarim. Tanks aren't and weren't abusing Sterak's, they have and had better items to use.

Ralanr3 votes

The only tanks to use it properly were Sion and Poppy.

Gosh Darn1 votes

Did you read the opening post? I want it to scale more heavily with bonus HP so it can't be picked up as a single defensive item on hypercarries like Fiora or Vayne. Don't comment and presumable downvote a thread that you didn't bother reading.

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Yes I did read it, I commented on the title. Don't presumably downvote a comment that is talking about one aspect of the topic when different aspects of the topic contradict each other.

Gosh Darn1 votes

Ok try reading it again. I don't know why you're not understanding me when I said I wanted it to scale with bonus hp so it's bought on juggernauts instead of the single defensive item on fighters.

KoggyStyle1 votes

i thought sterakks was nerfed cuase of the rediculous healing maw gives....

Gosh Darn2 votes

That was a separate "nerf" that simply made the passives be considered the same unique passive so that you couldn't stack both and be practically unkillable with 2 semi-defensive items.

The real nerf was the -100 hp which is a few hundred gold worth.

KoggyStyle1 votes

k thx, yes that graves stacking was pretty terrible to go against.

doodlebob6661 votes

not so sure if the sterak buff is a good idea because that extra health would make triforce user's like Irelia Jax Hecarim Vi ,way more overwhelming since the new triforce is much stronger on tanky fighters, probably would be smart to increase the cost back to original to

Bladerunner77771 votes

fuk you

Veteran's belongs to the supports now

it was shit before hand anyways, don't try to deny that. You can do the math again (it's been done multiple times), but the bonus it gave was negligible; it's a 3rd tier mastery for crying out loud

LankPants15 votes

If you're playing a support there's 3 possible cases for what you'd be playing.

You're playing a traditional support like Janna or Sona who excels at shielding and healing. In this case you should never run Veteran Scars over Runic Armour for obvious reasons, it's almost impossible not to heal enough HP for Runic Armour to be better if you're Sona.

You're a tank support like Leona or Braum it's an edge case. 3 potions already heal for 36 extra with RA, every proc of Targon's is 1 extra and you have base HP regen. Runic Armour also multiplies the shield from CotC which most of these supports run currently. Once BoS is changed Vet Scars will probably come out somewhat better on these champs abet not by a huge margin. It's also worth noting if you're someone like TK, Thresh or Ali who has healing and shielding Vet Scars almost always comes up better.

You're a mage support, in which case you should unquestionably distribute your 30 points between Ferocity and Cunning and ignore Resolve.

Veteran Scars would be a great mastery to change because as it stands you could remove it completely and no champion would be significantly hit.

it was shit before hand anyways, don't try to deny that. You can do the math again (it's been done multiple times), but the bonus it gave was negligible; it's a 3rd tier mastery for crying out loud

At 4% max HP it needed 1250 HP to grant 50 HP, a tank gets this at around level 6-7. An standard tank probably gets around 3500 HP while an extreme tank can be in the area of 5500. At these values a 4% increase gives 140 and 220 HP respectivly, which is quite a significant amount. People loved SotA (not me, I always preferred grasp) and was 300 HP for a keystone, half that for a T3 was pretty good.

What's negligible is 50 HP.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I'm a support main and I never take Veteran's Scars. Maybe if the burst damage in the game ever gets toned down I'd consider it but not as the game is now.

Bladerunner77771 votes

I'm a support main and I do take veteran's scars

your point?

Irelia Bot1 votes

That you are cutting yourself short.

Bladerunner77771 votes

Explain why supports tend to run health seals over armor seals

I'll do it for you:

Because health is the best defensive stat in the early levels. In a duo lane with less XP for each player, those early levels are more important (because you spend more time as those low levels).

Therefore, runes that optimize your early game are superior to runes geared towards mid-late. Winning bot early (this can be as simple as winning early trades) is a big deal (less so than usual because of the current state of bot lane, but it is still important).

The 8% healing increase is negligible in those early levels.

Veteran's scars isn't as good for other lanes because they spend less time at level 1-5 so it is less efficient.

In general, flat stats > % stats early game, and % > flat late game, and I already described how crucial early game is for bot.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

That it's not something that "belongs to supports now" as if supports automatically want it or that it is even the best choice for them.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

fuk you

Veteran's belongs to the supports now

it was shit before hand anyways, don't try to deny that. You can do the math again (it's been done multiple times), but the bonus it gave was negligible; it's a 3rd tier mastery for crying out loud

it increased your maximum health by 4%. for a tank or juggernaut with 4k health this meant 160 bonus health. bonus health which factors into defensive steroids like Nautilus shield, jugg item passives like item 3748 and item 3053 or abilities like Darius q.

this is the main problem with the nerf train to health on items in season 6. these items were meant to synergize with each other and champion kits since youre not just removing 100 health, but also nerfing every single health scaling champion who bought this item and other items that have health scaling passives.

so removing health off almost every single defensive item, and nerfing veteran scars aswell hurt health scaling champions pretty badly.

before you say 110 health loss is not that much. it was 100 health off item 3053 , 100 health off item 3742 , ~110 health off veteran scars, 300 health from strength of the ages, another 50 health off item 3083 , 200 health off item 3102

even if you just built some of those items, it just adds up to a large loss of around 300 to 400 health on most health scaling champions (more in case of junglers with strength of the ages).

thats 10% on average less on your health pool.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Last I checked, didn't someone do the math to prove how new Veteran's scar is still better than the old one, until you get XXXX amount of health. Can't remember the post it was from.

LankPants2 votes

650 HP, a champion with 3 potions already regenerates 450 HP just from pots, if you're running Secret Stash, which every support does that number's increased to 540. That means that you need to regen a grand total of 110 HP for Runic Armour to equal Veteran Scars. Before even HP regen that's only 8 procs of the basic Relic Shield, accounting for the HP regen if you were forced to low HP early and popped every pot you had and hit creeps with relic you'd be better off with Runic Armour after about 2 minutes.

The reason why I'm mentioning Support tanks and nothing else is because there are champs like Leona and Braum who have no regen and no shields, they are the best case for Vet Scars. Most top lane tanks and bruisers have a shield or a heal. In the jungle it's not even a contest, smite heals you, the jungle items heal you and you're the most likely person on the map to get fruit and scuttle which heal you.

Gosh Darn1 votes

The % HP was greater even on champions with the lowest base HP in the game once they got to a certain level. It's not about what's better though, it's about giving a resolve mastery back to tanks. Veteran's scars is more appealing to squishy ADCs who want the flat hp than anyone else.

SlashStriker1 votes

Sterak's was also handled in the worst way possible. It was used as a single defensive item on champions that weren't supposed to be buying it like Yi and ADCs

I would agree that Sterak should probably gain bonus AD based on Health, but Why the fuck Master Yi who is melee fighter, is not suppose to buy Sterak? You could mention champions like Lee Sin, Vi and and so on can burst you down with couple of spells, they got utility and CC on top of that but Master Yi got non of that and its required for him to stick to his target for longer period to deal damage and damage is the only thing he does.

Gosh Darn3 votes

The 5 offensive items and 1 sterak's gage build is what I'm referring to. It basically makes you immune to burst because of the large shield, and being focused and bursted is Yi's only real weakness. I'm not singling Yi out, I'm a Yi main, it's just that sterak's is meant to be an item for frontline bulkier fighters and juggernauts who are in the absolute epicenter of a fight. Hypercarries like Vayne and Yi were buying it because it was the best single defensive item in the game, offering even better protection than GA while still being like 60% offensive. If it remains like that, it will never be buffed to be more useful to juggernauts and fighters.

SlashStriker1 votes

being focused and bursted is Yi's only real weakness

I think i did not catch that. That's his ONLY weakness?

I'm a Yi main

Based on what?

Gosh Darn1 votes

Yi is a hypercarry that can duel nearly anyone lategame so yes his weakness is being bursted or stunlocked from the enemy piling him. This is stuff bronze people know so I'm not sure what game you're playing.

SlashStriker1 votes

So Jax can't duel anyone late game?

Meep Man2 votes

What is the connection here?

Gosh Darn1 votes

You need to read up on logical fallacies or something, your thought process is absolutely absurd. I don't know how you function in day to day life.

RexSaur1 votes

Fuck no

DaNinad1 votes

Lol who buy defensive items on adc's, lethality's where its at

Irelia Bot1 votes

When damage and armor pen is not overtuned like it is currently many would consider it.

Gosh Darn1 votes

Were you not playing when ADCs were unkillable with sterak's and maw and just mowed down the enemy team?

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