Riot can you stop what you're doing and rebalance the junglers? This is an absolute mess.

Gosh Darn··102 votes·6,774 views

I don't think I've ever seen a season with such a poorly balanced jungle. Even back in the cinderhulk meta there were more viable junglers than this. Basically the current state of the jungle is that there are about 6 viable junglers. If you don't pick one of these junglers Hecarim Vi Zac Shaco Ivern Shyvana and the enemy does, good luck ever catching up, you will never have the pressure or clears that they have. Champions that scale or are better suited for lategame/teamfighting just don't have a chance. Games are quicker, objectives are too important, and basically whoever camps the enemy bot lane more wins.

To make matters worse, the recent nerf to smite's heal just made the jungle even more polarized. I tried to clear with Sejuani, who I could easily achieve a full clear with before this season, and I was nearly executed after 4 camps including the one I was leashed at. You've got <46% winrate champions who's success hinged on items/masteries that are either no longer in the game or have been nerfed to trash tier. It's almost entirely a numbers issue. Gragas, Udyr, Master Yi, and more were nerfed hard forever ago when the new jungle would have balanced them out. Revert the nerfs or give them something new. Same goes with nearly every other champion that belongs in the jungle but can't carve out a niche to be viable this season.

tl;dr New jungle is a numbers based balancing issue. Dedicate one patch to readjusting junglers' numbers if you are deadset on these polarizing jungle changes that punish non-meta junglers. There shouldn't be a 2 level discrepency between junglers simply because the new jungle makes 1-2 or more camps take twice as long for certain champions Fiddlesticks item 3070 .

EDIT: Okay a lot of people are failing to read anything beyond the mention of clears. Clearing issues are only a small part of the big picture. When you take into account clear speed/health, item changes, mastery changes, champion changes, and jungle changes, that's how you get the balancing nightmare that is the season 7 jungle. All of these issues are important to look at. If the masteries and items are going to stay the same, the suffering champion needs compensatory buffs. I realize there are a few more popular junglers than the ones I mentioned but my point is that there are a handful of junglers who are performing very well while more than 70% of the champion pool for junglers are below 50% winrate and you've got about half the champion pool performing horribly poorly.

151 Comments

devdev46358 votes

honestly? 6 top tier junglers is better than pretty much every other season. You also forgot LeeSin which is the only other one i can think off right now so thats 7.

xevi6 votes

But other junglers who weren't necessarily top tier last season have become complete unViable

Prozzak2 votes

Nocturne is also fine from what I have seen so I would then say there are 8. People like to complain, but the jungle seems better than past years atm (diamond jungle main last few seasons btw).

FantasySniper8 votes

Except the only reason Nocturne is good right now is because he's a natural counter to Colossus users.

Blue1011 votes

I don't see how and would love for you to explain this point further.

Gosh Darn11 votes

His spellshield denies their hard cc and by extension their shield.

Wyrmblade44 votes

Meanwhile a rioter just confirmed their favoritism for Lee Sin in another thread, "He adds a lot to competitive play though, so we don't want to hit him too hard"

Yeah, making every other jungler useless sure does add a lot to competitive play.

IcyPepper3 votes

Link to that thread, please?

Blåbæret5 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6EEk9efX-musings-on-fun-and-clunkiness?comment=00000000

Lmao, is that even serious? Suddenly understand why Riot's fine With Lee invading my jng and oneshotting me at lvl 3 when I have full armor runes.

Sqkerg4 votes

You saw his edit right? he just worded it wrong. Leave it to the boards to pounce on every slip up that they make

Vekkna18 votes

Nocturne LeeSin Graves Khazix all seem to be doing well from what I've personally seen.

Also, Udyr with Cloud Drake and CoC after the Rylai's nerf is pretty disgusting. Literally no idea what's even supposed to deal with that.

TheGr8WhiteD2 votes

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Prozzak4 votes

I mean, Nocturne is the 6th highest winrate atm in plat + games while having over 4% playrate. That is pretty strong. I may be biased though as he is one of my more played junglers over the years. Jungle diversity is better than it has been in a while.

TheGr8WhiteD1 votes

[deleted]

Narasimha3 votes

There just isnt much of a skill cieling to his kit.

Go play Nocturne a bit, then come back. It's not all about the kit.

TheGr8WhiteD3 votes

[deleted]

macromite6 votes

buying bad items, building in the wrong order, Getting to much damage or attack speed.

Letting people escape the fear.

Trying to use your ult as a mid fight burst tool.

Trying to ult out of range slightly.

Using your ult as a reflex to a target that is nearly out of vision and having them out of vision when you ult.

Not using your trinket and buying command wards specifically so you can use them to ult.

ulting into bunched up targets

ulting before your team is ready to go in

Not ulting when you need to ult

Not using ult to deny vision

not ganking pre 6

Ganking too much pre 6

wasting spell shield on useless abilities

Wasting spellshield on poke before you all in.

Not using spellshield on poke before you all in.

not using ult to dodge cc.

Not using ult to escape sticky situations.

Letting the enemy carry survive after you attempt a dive (if your target is still alive then you fucked up somewhere)

Not comboing your abilities right

Not keeping a solid track of your mana usage

Not compensating for the fact that most people run as soon as you ult and accidentally towerdiving.

Towerdiving in general is a nono

building defensive early

Even when behind building defensive early

Even when actually feeding building defensive early is going to net a loss.

Not selling boots lategame for phantom.

Not xPeke2 votes

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, not trying to say Nocturne is easy not to fuck up on but...

duuuuuuuuuuuude everything you listed could be said about ANY champion in the game. Even an Annie.

macromite2 votes

I didn't know annie had a spellshield.

Not xPeke2 votes

are you trying to be a smartass or are you just thick?

You know what I mean, my point still stands.

You could make ANY champion appear challenging or weak, or show how they can "mess up". Like I said I'm not disagreeing with your idea of Nocturne, I'm just pointing out that listing every single thing that can screw him over can be said about anyone. That's a fact.

Just ask if you need an example or more.

macromite1 votes

not being a smartass, just calling you a dipshit.

Consider the context before posting.

Not xPeke2 votes

Wow you really are clueless...

You made an enormous list showing how someone can fuck up on Nocturne, trying to show "he's not easy". I simply pointed out you can literally make a list similar to the one you shared for ANY champion in the game. That's literally all I said. Are you going to deny this now? I said Annie as an example because she is regarded as an "easy champ", yet I could easily provide you with a similar list for her. And you come back with "I didn't know annie had a spellshield" hahahaha. Do you even logic bro? Anyone with a brain would be able to comprehend it wasn't LITERALLY Annie = Nocturne, smh.

I even said I'm not disagreeing with your point overall, but hey jump the gun and go all defensive mate. The only dipshit we have encountered here is yourself, which is very clear from your replies to me. Don't understand why you're so hostile when I WORD BY WORD said I don't disagree with you, but simply pointed out an actual fact to you.

macromite1 votes

I made a giant post showing how someone can fuck up on nocturne As a response to the post

explain to me how you can mess up Nocturne.

The post was not a stand alone post, please don't treat it like one.

EDIT: should mention that you got defensive first, I am replying with the same heat as has been replied to me.

Also should mention that most of the original list is not entirely champion agnostic, not even the basic form of the ideas. not a lot of champions sell boots later on for instance.

There are some points however that are champion agnostic and not role agnostic, such as the ganking rules

And there are some points that are entirely role and champion agnostic and can be applied to any champion.

Saying every point is the third is personally offensive to my work in making sure that I included many points from many types of ways that nocturne can fail.

Though I should mention that this entire time I have been in consideration of your point about agreeing with the overall point. Thanks :P

Not xPeke2 votes

Fair enough, I shouldn't have treated it as a stand alone post, my bad.

That's true some points were champion specific, but my point was that you can still kinda do that for any champion, obviously changing the spellshield bit for example with another champion-specific spell.

Having said this though I realise you were simply replying to a guy explaining how you can mess up, so I guess you did have to list all those points.

macromite2 votes

You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

I now formally apologize for my previous calling you a dipshit.

Not xPeke2 votes

:) my apologies as well mate.

DeadSpace3Winer14 votes

Did everyone forget about my girl RekSai ? All shes ever seen are nerfs.

Ensorcell17 votes

{quoted}

Did everyone forget about my girl RekSai ? All shes ever seen are nerfs.

And Kindred got nerfed almost immediately and thats pretty much all shes seen as well

Corriandr2 votes

To be fair, Kindred was a little too strong upon release (as most champs are)....but they definitely need some love now. They are such a great concept, with an ult that has a very obvious trade off but can synergize in team fighting very well with things like Janna and others. Not a LOT of TLC, to be fair, just a little bit to give them the boost they need to be viable.

Venomar2 votes

Rek'sai is pretty good right now though, she just doesn't fit into the meta because we are doing the Tanky top lane thing. She's kicking butt in Korea, but they're still playing a lot of carry tops.

PiVoRx14 votes

I see only rotation of this Hecarim Khazix LeeSin Zac Vi

MorgManBasher7 votes

I find it odd you lack Graves in your list. I don't think Shaco is top tier despite his winrate, personally. Nor do I think Shyv is all that grand.

For me I think it's LeeSin Zac Vi Graves Ivern RekSai

Reksai forever nerfed, forever top tier in High ELO.

rtbf761092712 votes

Shaco just has top tier ganks. Which leads to snowballed carries and a great win rate. But his farm is really not special, so i also disagree with the op there too.

Derfel4 votes

The guy in charge of the jungle is silver. I have a friend who doesn't know what last hitting is and he's gold. Let that sink in.

Pope Glitterhoof3 votes

{quoted}

I have a friend who doesn't know what last hitting is and he's gold.

That's a little too extreme. How did he manage to get Gold? By playing support?

Sqkerg5 votes

Friend, its called lying to make a point

Bisaknosp4 votes

yea uhm i remember the times when there were only 4 viable junglers

Elise LeeSin Vi and i forgot the other one lul i think it was RekSai could have been before her release though

Alzheimer confirmed

Zen Ineth3 votes

I can play Master Yi in this new jungle just fine and come out rather healthy

Gosh Darn10 votes

I didn't say all of the champions with poor performance were struggling because of their clears. Yi's winrate dropped dramatically because he was nerfed hard before devourer/old rageblade were removed and then fervor was nerfed. He's one of the few non-meta junglers that actually maintained a half decent clear but that alone won't make him useful compared to other meta junglers.

Matake3 votes

Amumu Jax JarvanIV LeeSin Maokai Nasus Nautilus Nunu Shaco Skarner Warwick

Just gonna leave these guys here.

Ahristocats10 votes

in what elo are j4/nunu/skarner/ww/nasus/nautilus played in the jungle?

ShaolinToilet6 votes

Ammumu and nunu are both strong jungler in every elo

A Basic Island3 votes

lolwarwick

It Hertz When IP2 votes

He's not strong, but he's about as idiotproof as a jungler can get.

Sup im Carrier3 votes

[deleted]

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

? Until the hotfix a few days ago he was the highest winrate jungler in the game....

VexingRaven4 votes

{quoted}

? Until the hotfix a few days ago he was the highest winrate jungler in the game....

Only because AP Shaco was broken cheese.

Villainous V3 votes

I think you mean 9 junglers. You forgot Khazix LeeSin Graves. The kings of bullshit imo.

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