Why is AD/bruiser Fizz even allowed to exist?

HateDaddy·Apr 2, 2017·149 votes·7,768 views

The sustained damage of a fighter with the slipperiness of an assasssin. Call me a QQer, whatever. This is one of the dumbest fucking things to play against.

199 Comments

Big LincolnApr 2, 201730 votes

how do we prevent it tho

only thing I can think of is removing the AD scaling on his Q

ABlueQuakerApr 2, 20173 votes

Revert.

SH AzykanApr 2, 20176 votes

they have consistently nerfed specifically AD fizz, any revert would be a buff to that build.

Velzard of KozApr 2, 201718 votes

A good champion design which doesn't turn Assasin into either underperforming or overperforming Divers might help. Unfortunately with how Assasins (logically mainly the AD ones, though) and Divers abuse each other's items, after a while one doesn't really feel that Skirmishers, Assasins and over-mobile Divers have much distinction.

9kPluzZApr 2, 20176 votes

Assasin Fizz DOES work tho, infat he is one of the most reliable assassins in the game. Bruiser Fizz is just a alternate build for a different lane. The question is do you want build diversity or not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLYO3LuvbA Also to say their is no distinction between this and a bruser Camille is bullshit

Cosmic WarperApr 2, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Assasin Fizz DOES work tho, infat he is one of the most reliable assassins in the game. Bruiser Fizz is just a alternate build for a different lane. The question is do you want build diversity or not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLYO3LuvbA Also to say their is no distinction between this and a bruser Camille is bullshit

fizz, reliable assassin? Nice one. After the ult change he's one of the least reliable assassins. If he doesn't land his ult past mid range he can't assassinate a squishy.

Imperial JapanApr 2, 201710 votes

He can though.. a smart fizz player doesn't really need his ult at all to make fizz work. Anyways, the ult changes were to give counterplay. Just Q ULT next time

Automated RivenApr 2, 20176 votes

I don't really agree. Past midgame if the support is landing heals/shields without landing a max range ult you aren't gonna assassinate anyone.

MysticFlameHazeApr 2, 20172 votes

well is that not the point of a support, to help the player not get killed, champs have their strong points in game, early, mid, late, fizz would still be able to do so, it'll just be tough to get a window, another thing is supports and shields/heals in this game right now are stupid strong, so i wouldnt say fizz is the full problem

Automated RivenApr 3, 20175 votes

try that against a janna lulu with nearly perma uptime on their shields not even counting locked and their ults. in order for fizz to assassinate past that requires some serious lag or misplay from the support.

MysticFlameHazeApr 3, 20172 votes

Yeah, cause they're doing what is supposed to happen. you basically just stacked on to what i said in my last point, that fizz isn't necessarily the problem with him not being able to assassinate, I said that shielding and healing are so dumb right now that it makes it difficult for his job to be done more often.

ChaoticPineconeApr 3, 20177 votes

Correction - a fed Fizz player doesnt need his ult at all to make Fizz work. No matter how you want to cut it, Fizz's most effective and most damaging combo uses his shark to engage. If he isnt fed enough (or his team isnt able to do enough damage), he isnt going to be doing much charging into a fight.

Asayake 5150glowApr 2, 201710 votes

{quoted}

A good champion design which doesn't turn Assasin into either underperforming or overperforming Divers might help. Unfortunately with how Assasins (logically mainly the AD ones, though) and Divers abuse each other's items, after a while one doesn't really feel that Skirmishers, Assasins and over-mobile Divers have much distinction.

Cleaver should be removed from an assassins build tbh. Makes them too tanky and too good at killing tanks. The CDR also makes them way too spammy for a precise, targeted, assassin.

Faceroll TacticsApr 2, 20172 votes

The build path for cleaver on assassins and fighters is god awful, you can abuse that an offensive champion is wasting 800 gold on hp and cdr before they complete the item...

Asayake 5150glowApr 2, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2017-04-02T21:31:11.603+0000)

The build path for cleaver on assassins and fighters is god awful, you can abuse that an offensive champion is wasting 800 gold on hp and cdr before they complete the item...

Nah, health is useful for them because it lets them tank more damage - one of their biggest weaknesses is being squishy - while they're going in.

Faceroll TacticsApr 2, 20173 votes

Hp is bad on assassins because they aren't meant to take damage they are meant to kill the enemy as fast as they can before they can have an impact on your team, the health kindle gem health makes them stay alive for maybe half a second longer but they would like ad more.

Asayake 5150glowApr 3, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T23:49:45.977+0000)

Hp is bad on assassins because they aren't meant to take damage they are meant to kill the enemy as fast as they can before they can have an impact on your team, the health kindle gem health makes them stay alive for maybe half a second longer but they would like ad more.

Cleaver is often a second or third item, by that point the 200 health is pretty damn good.

Sure they'd like more AD more, but health is still fine.

bbQsauçeApr 2, 201713 votes

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4th3t0sApr 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=0000000100010001,timestamp=2017-04-02T22:25:35.041+0000)

Then give us AD assassins some other CDR options, we build cleaver cause it's the only good one.

Who said assassins needed to rely on CDR? Every class should have some downtime if they fuck up, except maybe ADC's since AA's have no cooldown

Faceroll TacticsApr 2, 20175 votes

AAs have cooldowns its called attack speed. They have to build some form of it to be useful unless you're jhin mf or like pre nerf varus

ChaoticPineconeApr 2, 20175 votes

With the availability of CDR on Mages items, Tank items, Support items, and now ADC items, it would seem very weird to have Assassins as the only class without many CDR options.

Asayake 5150glowApr 2, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=0000000100010001,timestamp=2017-04-02T22:25:35.041+0000)

Then give us AD assassins some other CDR options, we build cleaver cause it's the only good one.

You're not supposed to have good CDR options -_-

CDR = DPS. Assassins aren't supposed to have DPS.

bbQsauçeApr 2, 201720 votes

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Asayake 5150glowApr 3, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=000000010001000100010000,timestamp=2017-04-02T23:27:23.643+0000)

Okay, then remove cdr options from burst mages, tanks and supports, because they aren't supposed to have DPS. What the fuck is that argument? Assassins are casters just like other classes, why should they be the only class to not have cdr options?

Burst mages shouldn't have DPS, agreed, however their itemization overlaps with dps/poke/kite mages so much that it's really hard not to give them CDR. Overabundance of CDR is indeed a problem. Although, honestly burst mages only get 20% CDR from items (Morellos) because their heavy damage items give no CDR (Deathcap, Void Staff, Luden's).

Tanks and supports like CDR so they can use their disruption and buffing spells more often, which is basically their whole point.

Assassins are burst based casters who should not have access to the sort of DPS necessary to kill tanks. Multikills should be reset based or similar. Otherwise, you get bruiser Rengar, bruiser Fizz, etc. They shouldn't need CDR to do their job and assassinate (Zed doesn't), and it just makes a whole lotta other issues.

bbQsauçeApr 3, 20173 votes

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Asayake 5150glowApr 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=00000001000100010001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-03T01:38:32.868+0000)

Assassins need CDR so they can use their rotations more often, they're already pretty useless if they can't burst down their target in one rotation. Assassins don't have dps unless you build them specifically for it (zed with bork comes to mind), burst based builds don't really have dps, CDR just allows them to get more rotations so they're not useless for 2 minutes after blowing everything. Assassins would be weak as fuck if you removed CDR from them right now, they're balanced around it.

Yeah, but they should be useless/nearly useless if they don't kill their target in one rotation - all of them have the tools to do so (keep in mind for Kha and Rengar 1 rotation involves multiple Q's - their cooldowns are already low as shit), so if they didn't, it's because they're behind or they missed many things. Also, they aren't useless/nearly useless. They still deal a large portion of their targets health, allowing them to help kill them. A feeding Kata has no right to kill a Viktor without playing perfectly. CDR does not matter in that case, as she could just back out and wait for cooldowns instead of bullshitting the Viktor.

Once you've blown everything that's kinda the whole point. You just blew everything - that's it. Now the DPS gets a chance to fight back, if they aren't already dead.

Assassins would not be weak as fuck without CDR. I just played a Fizz game - I easily oneshot Talon with R+E+auto+W+Q+ignite, and I had double cloth armor and a Doran's shield (so I wouldn't be cheesed lvl 1). I picked up a Sheen and then I could kill him through his flash (was close tho).

Assassins should be balanced around hitting everything and playing perfectly in that first rotation. How easy it is to fuck up and how mechanically complex it is is what gives Assassin's their thrill.

On the other hand, you have Diana, who is the simplest assassin, but lacks a good escape because of it. She can still assassinate, and needs to pay attention to positioning/timing/cooldowns, but has no complex mechanics. Because of that, she is weaker (no escape). Don't give me shit about her being tanky, Cleaver assassins are plenty tank as well. She also lacks lvl 6 oneshot potential (she usually does 100-50).

bbQsauçeApr 3, 20175 votes

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SteelflameApr 3, 20171 votes

AP Assassins should have good CDR access. They have virtually nothing during the downtime of their abilities.

AD shouldn't, because not only do they have powerful abilities, but they can then back them with powerful auto attacks. AD CDR options should be some of the most limited things in the game, to the point of reaching 40% CDR requires investing in outside sources of CDR from their class, or stats that have poor synergy with AD scalings.

Edge of DaybreakApr 3, 20171 votes

That's already how it is. There is a reason everyone builds cleaver. There are only 3 cdr options for ad casters that you could really get, yoummu's, death's dance, ionian boots. That's pretty much it and it gives 30%. Cleaver giving fighters 20% makes it a godsend to casters along with the pen.

SteelflameApr 3, 20172 votes

Not really. Black Cleaver is pretty solid 20%, 10% from D-Dance, Maw, and Ghostblade, Ionians existing, ect.

Honestly, I think Fighters would be fine with it losing 10% CDR for more health. The standard fighter build often struggles not to hard overcap CDR thanks to 20% Cleaver, 20% Triforce/Iceborn, 10% Spirit Visage. This reduces it's value as a 1 stop shop for most of the AD Caster CDR/arpen needs, gives fighters more of the HP that they need/want.

I also think Triforce should lose the 20% CDR and go back to 10%, replace the Stinger with a Recurve and you'd set it up to not be such a ridiculous CDR overload.

Glory ln DeathApr 3, 20172 votes

Hmmm... what if they pulled an Essence Reaver with Black Cleaver? 10% flat cdr from the item, and then you get extra cdr based on bonus health, up to an additional 10% at 1000 bonus health (maybe lower). That way, champions who don't build tanky (assassins, skirmishers, marksmen, some divers) don't get as much benefit as its intended classes (juggernauts, some divers, some tanks).

Asayake 5150glowApr 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=0000000100010001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-03T02:04:05.004+0000)

It would be too punishing to not be able to kill someone in one rotation and it would be unfair.

There's already a window where the assassin just blew everything he had and he's useless, it wouldn't be fair extending it since mages and ADCs can dish out damage as they please.

Sure it's punishing, but it's in no way unfair. You want to reliably kill someone? Play Diana. Play Akali. Play someone mechanically simply with point and click damage you can't miss. You wanna play a flashy assassin like Zed? You gotta hit those shurikens. It's not fucking fair to juke all the shurikens and die to autos and the ult.

That window is already tiny due to tiny cooldowns of the main damage of most assassins (Diana Q, Rengar Q, Ahri Q, Kata Q, Zed Q+E (although he's gated by energy), Kha Q). When an assassin blows everything, he does not become useless, especially not the AD ones. Instead, they get nearly true damage autoattacks and low cooldown nukes, becoming a squishy dps champion who simply can't be ignored.

Mages are far worse off after they blow everything because their autoattacks do not do a million damage. Plus, some of them even have actual cooldowns (not all though).

The whole point of an ADC is for reliable, consistent, and safe damage. That is literally one of the only places where an ADC outshines an assassin - and already, that gap is getting smaller.

OyddAWqJ5rApr 3, 20177 votes

Burst on a lower cooldown =/= higher DPS. Yes, it techincally means that, but it's not like they suddenly went from all-inning every 15 seconds to all-inning every 3 seconds.

9kPluzZApr 2, 201713 votes

Wahhhhhh, we don't want build diversity anymore WAHHHHHHHH, every cHamp should build the same items and be viable in only one role, WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

HateDaddyApr 2, 201728 votes

{quoted}

Wahhhhhh, we don't want build diversity anymore WAHHHHHHHH, every cHamp should build the same items and be viable in only one role, WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

There's a difference between build diversity and build abuse

9kPluzZApr 2, 20173 votes

50% win rate seems balanced to me

HateDaddyApr 2, 201714 votes

{quoted}

50% win rate seems balanced to me

https://na.op.gg/champion/fizz/statistics/top

Where do you see 50% winrate?

That's not even what I'm arguing in the first place.

JedenVojakApr 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between build diversity and build abuse

Yes, the difference is build diversity exists and build abuse doesn't.

SH AzykanApr 2, 20177 votes

I mean there have been times where build abuse does happen (runeglaive ezreal comes to mind)

4th3t0sApr 2, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the difference is build diversity exists and build abuse doesn't.

Tank Ekko ? Bruiser Yasuo ? AP MasterYi ? How's it like living under a rock?

JedenVojakApr 2, 20176 votes

{quoted}

The sustained damage of a fighter with the slipperiness of an assasssin. Call me a QQer, whatever. This is one of the dumbest fucking things to play against.

So what do you want? A game where you have no real choices on how to build your character and are locked into a small subset of abilities your character is allowed to have? Because if that's the case play Heroes of the Storm.

Otherwise it would be best if there were multiple viable builds for all champions.

awwkApr 2, 20174 votes

no one plays it so

HateDaddyApr 2, 201722 votes

{quoted}

no one plays it so

yeah they do, it's been re-emerging the last few weeks after it got played competitively so my cancer has returned. I have no problem admitting a bias here, ad fizz is one of my most hated things to play against

Fisherman FízzApr 2, 20173 votes

I get your pain buddy, I hate that thing as much as you, with the recent rework I thought it was gone forever, I guess I was wrong... I hope something is done about it and it doesn't harm AP Fizz players such as me.

HateDaddyApr 2, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fisherman Fízz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqvKq82,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T16:43:30.098+0000)

I get your pain buddy, I hate that thing as much as you, with the recent rework I thought it was gone forever, I guess I was wrong... I hope something is done about it and it doesn't harm AP Fizz players such as me.

shrugs it doesn't help that botrk is strong right now. The Korean style on-hit kennel received a buff with that too and its already been popular over there prior to botrk buffs. Wonder if it'll translate to this side of the world.

ABlueQuakerApr 2, 20174 votes

bruh I'm still praying for a revert of the rework. Fizz was healthy for such a long time and Riot decided to ruin it.

TheHappyReaperzApr 2, 20175 votes

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

ABlueQuakerApr 2, 20174 votes

Remember how Fizz was broken with TriForce last season? Then Riot fixed that issue and literally nobody complained about Fizz while he simultaneously maintaining a healthy Win Rate? Fizz was actually super versatile, post-nerf, for pretty much all of last season without being OP or weak with any specific build.

Yeah, well Riot decided to fucking rework his W and R like morons and ruin all of that. His reworked W is stupid, as is the R. Riot gimped the R. Now his W, an AA reset, is being abused with TriForce. Surprise fucking surprise.

Just revert to pre-Assassin update, Riot, and never do a class update again. NEVER. FUCKING. AGAIN. RIOT.

TormentulaApr 2, 201717 votes

He was never broken with triforce.

Infact he built iceborn over it anyway.

The reason why it suddenly wasn't broken anymore was because tank ekko did the same exact thing but was better even after every nerf, then they killed tank ekko with the assassin update but it barely affected fizz.