RiotJag from Patch Rundown 5.21: "It's really clear that Summoner (referring to Teleport) is way too general purpose and has no real weaknesses"
Oh 
really ? Please tell me more !
"Teleport clearly needs an adjustment for one thing"
Teleport is too strong guys! No rly!
Ser Garland6 votesTeleport is damn obnoxious and you know it.
Free map control on a game revolving around careful rotations and map control?
It should downright be removed IMO.
And before you say "Same with flash", there are so many champions 
That would absolutely DOMINATE the meta if that happened.
And there would be so many immobile champions that would cease to exist.
TP being removed destroys no one.
MrWasjig13 votesMy point is Flash is willingly ignored while they instead are looking to nerf another Summoner.
The bigger problem is bringing the weaker Summoners that are never picked like {{summoner:2}} 
and so on, up to the power levels of Flash and TP. Or buffed in SOME way to make them actually picked.
Because let's be honest 
are the only 6 Summoner Spells that exist right now.
The Queen Viper2 votesMy point is Flash is willingly ignored while they instead are looking to nerf another Summoner.
Yes, because Flash is actually NOT a problem ... while global pressure on every lane is.
SEKAI6 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake on bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqJAfgv,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-01T13:40:25.267+0000)
Yes, because Flash is actually NOT a problem ... while global pressure on every lane is.
Check its CD and their somewhat limited uses, it's not that pressuring.
Flash is a problem when it's picked by virtually everyone on the planet as a compulsory component.
ZephyrDrake2 votesCheck its CD.
Flash is a problem when it's picked by virtually everyone on the planet as a compulsory.
yeah but no, i rather have everyone using flash than more people using teleport any time of the day. Teleport punishes aggressive plays way too much to the point where it's better to not make any sort of plays purely due to the fear of being it being turned around and putting you behind when the play was supposed to put you ahead. You can also just teleport back to lane whenever you want if you so wish and if the enemy laner doesn't have flash then whatever play they did that was supposed to make you lose exp and cs becomes moot if you have tele available while they would need to walk all the way back to lane every single time making them lose exp and cs.
Teleport gives way too many advantages and it's way too snowbally as it currently stands for it's own good
SEKAI5 votesyeah but no, i rather have everyone using flash than more people using teleport any time of the day. Teleport punishes aggressive plays way too much to the point where it's better to not make any sort of plays purely due to the fear of being it being turned around and putting you behind when the play was supposed to put you ahead.
You can just withdraw whenever you spot the TP effect and just punish the lane that has lower lane presence due to the guy already used his TP?
You can also just teleport back to lane whenever you want if you so wish and if the enemy laner doesn't have flash then whatever play they did that was supposed to make you lose exp and cs becomes moot if you have tele available while they would need to walk all the way back to lane every single time making them lose exp and cs.
Remember he is using 1 of his 2 summoner's to do a reverse recall, no way this is not allowed. Flash has way more combat practicalities when it comes to initiation, chase and disengage. TP just has better navigation with global presence. They both counter aggression anyway.
Teleport gives way too many advantages and it's way too snowbally as it currently stands for it's own good
Not really.
ZephyrDrake1 votesYou can just withdraw whenever you spot the TP effect and just punish the lane that has lower lane presence due to the guy already used his TP?
Remember he is using 1 of his 2 summoner's to do a reverse recall, no way this is not allowed. Flash has way more combat practicalities when it comes to initiation, chase and disengage. TP just has better navigation. They both counter aggression anyway.
Not really.
you cannot withdraw every single time. hell if you can withdraw that just means whoever used the teleport is terrible at it. You don't use it in their faces and hope they continue with the engage. You teleport behind them or when they are fighting so that leaves them with way fewer options on how to deal with it.
Flash is a combat spell of course it's going to have more combat practicalities. Teleport counters aggression way more than flash can since as soon as you start fighting you can find yourself with a numbers disadvantage just like that because you have no way of escaping anymore and have no other option but to fight and hope you get something out of it. Remember what? that he is using a summoner spell to get an advantage over you? how is that any different from any other summoner spell? if he has teleport and you don't he can back whenever the hell he feels like, buy his items and comeback to lane with more items than you and fully healed while you might not be as lucky and now that you don't have teleport if you back that means he is getting free cs, you will lose cs and exp and also your turret will take a chunk of damage if he so wishes.
yes really. What are the disadvantages of teleport? 3.5 sec channel? people can escape from hiding in a brush and recalling and that is way eaiser to interrupt and is twice as long. If you use your cc for whatever reason (trading, got engaged, it's tied to something else) then tough luck preventing the teleport. Hell it even makes for a decent escape tool at times. Another disadvantage is not being able to use it in combat? that hardly matters when you are almost guaranteed to have a numbers advantage. Not having a second combat summoner? once again, that hardly matters when you are just snowballing other lanes (as well as yourself in the process) while then being able to turn into a splitpusher later in the game.
I really don't see how the advantages of teleport don't outweigh it's drawbacks. It's way too good right now and whether you agree with it or not, i could care less since it's obvious who by the state of the game and how it's become almost mandatory in the top lane with many midlaners favoring it heavily even in SoloQ.
SEKAI5 votesFlash is a combat spell of course it's going to have more combat practicalities.
Same with TP, it does what it knows best, which is global presence.
But you can't just go wherever you please, it requires a set up (channel time, and either a location that has a time limit but hidden or one that doesn't have it but visible), unlike Flash where if you can reach the button, you could do it.
TP is only mandatory in top most of the time, unlike Flash which is compulsory to anyone who isn't actively scaling with MS, or are some oddballs like Shaco.
ZephyrDrake1 votesSame with TP, it does what it knows best, which is global presence.
But you can't just go wherever you please, it requires a set up (either one that has a time limit but hidden or one that doesn't have it but visible), unlike Flash where if you can reach the button, you could do it.
TP is only mandatory in top most of the time, unlike Flash which is compulsory to anyone who isn't actively scaling with MS, or are some oddballs like Shaco.
yeah, the setup being "drop a ward so i can TP!" that's hardly a setup specially when at the start of the game you are either TPing back to your lane or bot lane which if the support isn't braindead, there should be a ward you can TP to. You can reach and press a button for flash doesn't mean you will be able to escape or even make your flashy kill.
TP is pretty much mandatory in top lane and flash being mandatory does not mean that TP is any less broken, how about you stop using flash as a crutch and actually try to defend TP not needing nerfs? tell me why TP does not need nerfs without using the "BUT FLASH!" crutch?
SEKAI2 votesyeah, the setup being "drop a ward so i can TP!" that's hardly a setup specially when at the start of the game you are either TPing back to your lane or bot lane which if the support isn't braindead, there should be a ward you can TP to. You can reach and press a button for flash doesn't mean you will be able to escape or even make your flashy kill.
Again same thing with TP, just because you got there doesn't mean you will make any table turning difference, that is if you can make it there before the fight ends in the first place.
TP is pretty much mandatory in top lane and flash being mandatory does not mean that TP is any less broken,
Fix Flash first then we can talk, first come first serve. Flash has been broken for years, it's about time they get addressed, so at least do that before TP.
ZephyrDrake1 votesAgain same thing with TP, just because you got there doesn't mean you will make any table turning difference.
Fix Flash first then we can talk, first come first serve. Flash has been broken for years, it's about time they get addressed, so at least do that before TP.
same with TP? you have higher chances of turning the tables while TPing than while flashing. You will either get a massive advantage, force the enemy to disengage (sometimes even forcing a flash) or you will just be an idiot and TP when the fight is over and die because you didn't cancel the TP for being an idiot. So unless you are an idiot your chances of getting something out of your TP is way higher than not and that's not even mentioning the fact that once again you can just back whenever the hell you feel like, buy items, TP back to lane while being fully healed and get an advantage over your opponent that way.
once again you cannot do anything without mentioning flash, when you tell me why TP is in a good spot and does not need to be nerfed without using your crutch excuse we can talk again. Flash right now is in a MUCH better position than TP is but i could care less if you agree with me or not. TELL ME WHY TP DOES NOT NEED NERFS WITHOUT USING YOUR "BUT FLASH!" EXCUSE!
SEKAI4 votessame with TP? you have higher chances of turning the tables while TPing than while flashing.
That explains why Flash is almost universally picked even in competitive but not TP right?
Flash right now is in a MUCH better position than TP is but i could care less if you agree with me or not. TELL ME WHY TP DOES NOT NEED NERFS WITHOUT USING YOUR "BUT FLASH!" EXCUSE!
It's not in a right spot objectively, personal bias do not come into the middle of balance, or at least they should try but you clearly aren't. It's the boots, the Thresh the f'ing Earth of the the summoner spells when choices are supposed to be diverse and situational, no way it's in a better position than TP.
Sure both can use some nerfs and changes, however I insist on doing on Flash first just because how long it had been a problem and how much it had affected the game, objectively.
ZephyrDrake1 votesThat explains why Flash is almost universally picked even in competitive but not TP right?
It's not in a right spot objectively, personal bias do not come into the middle of balance, or at least they should try but you clearly aren't. It's the boots, the Thresh the f'ing Earth of the the summoner spells when choices are supposed to be diverse and situational, no way it's in a better position than TP.
Sure both can use some nerfs and changes, however I insist on doing on Flash first just because how long it had been a problem and how much it had affected the game, objectively.
hahahahahha. Come back when you can talk about TP without using flash. You obviously have no arguments other than "flash is this and that" that's not how it works.
TP is worst than flash. TP gives you advantages all over the map, and when it's down? you don't lose much, your champion still works exactly the same with or without it all you lose is some map pressure but the champion itself still does exactly the same things with or without TP. Flash on the other hand when it's down, there is a clear moment of weakness you can take advantage of, specially if it's an immobile champion.
TP IS WORST THAN FLASH AND IF YOU CANNOT HAVE AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT ABOUT TP NOT NEEDING NERFS NOW! WITHOUT MENTIONING FLASH THEN DO NOT EVEN BOTHER REPLYING!
SEKAI2 voteshahahahahha. Come back when you can talk about TP without using flash. You obviously have no arguments other than "flash is this and that" that's not how it works.
My argument is based on history and fact, your argument is based on how you think it works.
I don't need to explain the severity of Flash because a single statement from what has and still is happening should already suffice on filling up how problematic it is, there is no need to even run thought experiments on this.
TP is worst than flash. TP gives you advantages all over the map, and when it's down? you don't lose much,
Same with all summoner's, it's supposed to be that way in the first place. That's why they're all built with long CDs because they only offer advantages (varying depending on how useful they fundamentally are). And that's also precisely why it has a clear tier system on what's useful and otherwise because there is no risk-reward but only how much benefit you can gain. And Flash is universally picked because it's overall the most useful when weighing its CD and potential uses.
TP IS WORST THAN FLASH AND IF YOU CANNOT HAVE AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT ABOUT TP NOT NEEDING NERFS NOW! WITHOUT MENTIONING FLASH THEN DO NOT EVEN BOTHER REPLYING!
You don't either.
Not saying TP can't be a problem, was simply saying that if they wanna do anything, do Flash first, because it has historically and objectively affected the game way too much, first come first serve it's as simple as it gets.
SEKAI2 votesdid not read! comeback when you actually have an argument that does not mention flash.
I can not understand this logic, why would you ignore something that has already been broken for several years and instead nerf or change something that is only strong just because you think they're problematic?
This is what Riot has been doing in the past few patches. Nerfing something out of the blue when they found out that they can be a problem in some ridiculous to impossible scenarios while still leaving the blatant OP stuff unchecked.
I can't comprehend why "one step at a time, start with the obvious" is some concept you (and Riot) don't seem to grasp.
Remember balance is completely relative, you must have something to compare to during the balance process, it's just how it works.
I compare TP to Flash to get you to understand that TP is not really that much of a problem as you might think but you insist on taking TP alone and talk about how OP it is, against what anyway? That's also why you keep on making "exclusive" examples when they're actually universal because you don't put things side by side in a task that's all about comparison.
See the flaw in your logic?
The Queen Viper3 votesFlash is a problem when it's picked by virtually everyone on the planet as a compulsory component.
?
SEKAI3 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake on bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqJAfgv,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-01T14:29:40.412+0000)
Second tier boots some some cheap and rather useful stats that's why.
Not to mention a lot of people do throw away their boots when late game arrives.
I wouldn't necessary argue that boots are a problem because MS is really important, not just because boots are too good as a whole. But of course if the game can evolve to the point where boots are not required then I would definitely welcome that too.
MrWasjig2 votesDo boots allow you to blink and ignore any and ALL terrain?
Didn't think so.
The Queen Viper1 votesDo boots allow you to blink and ignore any and ALL terrain?
No, and that wasn't the point either.
MrWasjig2 votesOkay, so what is your point? That boots are mandatory?
TheXtractor1 votesThat everyone in the games buys it and its not a problem. Just like flash.
MrWasjig2 votesBoots are a cheap stat boost coupled with MS. And they don't' allow you to ignore terrain and preposition in a fight with the mere press of a button. Or escape in a split second, or escape in a split second.
It's apples and oranges. Items to Summoner spells is an unfair comparison.
TheXtractor1 votesTry chasing someone with boots when you have no boots. Then you will feel how much that 'small stat' boost matters. Having boots vs no boots can mean a kill or a no kill, it can mean being in time somewhere or being just too late, it means being able to dodge something or not. it can turn a lot of things.
MrWasjig2 votesSo boots are mandatory. Difference is they're not a Summoner Spell.
TheXtractor1 votesThey take up limited item space. Same principle cept you have 6 item spots and 2 summoner spell spots. But still 9 out of 10 games your item build consists of 5 items + boots. So its restricting things in the same way. But its not a problem. I dont think that flash is a problem either.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesThey take up limited item space. Same principle cept you have 6 item spots and 2 summoner spell spots. But still 9 out of 10 games your item build consists of 5 items + boots. So its restricting things in the same way. But its not a problem. I dont think that flash is a problem either.
did you have a mage with 6 items instead of 5? no? don't talk then. karthus sell his boot to an other item get basically 120 more AP, has less MS but doesn't care because he does is doing damage in teamfight and never chase someone.
same with any mage
MrWasjig1 votesIt's clear we have different opinions on the situation and have reached an impasse. Thanks for participating.
Nekusen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wiqJAfgv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-30T13:12:52.768+0000)
Teleport is damn obnoxious and you know it.
Free map control on a game revolving around careful rotations and map control?
It should downright be removed IMO.
And before you say "Same with flash", there are so many champions
And there would be so many immobile champions that would cease to exist.
TP being removed destroys no one.
They could make into a short lived that gives you some speed, makes you untargetable (and unable to attack/cast) for 1.5 seconds, and allows you to ignore terrain transformations like Anivia's wall and such.
There, you have your new
ImNLuvWitATeemo1 votesthats more obnoxious than current flash.... no one like untargetability
Ionian5 votesCan't make flashy plays without flash.
Plus I'll be really sad if they nerf flash because Q+flash and E+flash are so satisfying to perform as Ahri.
Deep Terror Nami4 votesI don't think League would be the same without everyone having Flash at their disposal. It'd be like taking Graves's shotgun away. Now he has to punch people. Turns out he's pretty good at it.
MrWasjig4 votesI'm not saying they should nerf or remove flash. I'm saying they need to buff pretty much every Summoner that isn't
Because these:
{{summoner:2}} 
Are rarely picked (you could make arguements for Barrier and Clense in niche circumstances but regardless) Out of the 11 Summoner Spells available on SR, just under half are worthless right now.
thumbnail93 votesThey honestly had to nerf it.
Once it started to be picked 24/7 and actually replace ignite, as shown in worlds, the summoner needed to be nerfed. Suddenly 5 people in bot lane is overbearing and if one team has double tele it gets extremely punishing. Also its downside is not really a downside unless you are losing.
C9 Scott Free 2 votesTaking TP gives up lane pressure. If you kill the people with TP then they aren't an issue.
MrWasjig2 votesYeah but for how long? If you're talking about during the lane phase that's an entire 10 seconds or so of not being an issue.
The Queen Viper1 votesTaking TP gives up lane pressure.
Their, lane pressure.
If you kill the people with TP then they aren't an issue.
Yeah... that's what people say about Twisted Fate as well, he's rather easy to win on lane. Oh wait, they don't care if they lose their lane, since they will help OTHER LANES to snowball.
C9 Scott Free 1 votesKill pressure, and if your team plays well or you play champions with excellent pushing you can just go ahead and take their towers. You can force trades.
The Queen Viper1 votesKill pressure,
They don't care about killing YOU specifically... they have kill pressure in every other lane.
and if your team plays well or you play champions with excellent pushing you can just go ahead and take their towers.
Well sure... have fun taking that top T1 turret while your enemy takes the bot T1 turret AND the drake.
You can force trades.
Not in bot lane.
C9 Scott Free 1 votesHow can you not force trades in bot lane? Did we forget that the enemy can't just tp in the middle of lane anyway? And if you kill them twice they are gonna miss having that kill pressure. You act like it is impossible to win lane or a game against someone with TP. And if you get 2 towers and they get one drake thats worth depending on the drake count. I don't see the logic in the woe to me defeatist attitude over a spell that takes coordination to be used well and has a 3-4 second heads up.
Meep Man1 votesWhat if I told you Flash wasn't actually too extremely powerful? I mean, what does it do, add a 400 units jump every 6 minutes? Why not get Exhaust and Ignite and instantly win every duel every 5 minutes? Or get Teleport and Ghost and become a huge global presence? Maybe get Heal and Clarity on a Mana Suatain champion and become the ultimate stay in lane champion that could become a real pushing presence? Maybe get Heal and Barrier at the same time and become near unkillable? But no, I guess instead of Summoner Spell synergy and wombo combos you'd rather have a 400 unit teleport every 6 minutes that, by the way, can actually fail unlike most other Summoner Spells since you can Flash into walls or flash and have it not change the situation at all.
MrWasjig1 votesDifference is, Flash is way more versatile than pretty much EVERY Summoner in the game. With the possible exception of TP. Every Summoner has but one use. Flash and TP can tout a few more.
Need a quick escape? Take flash. Need a quick chase? Take flash. Need to reposition in a flash? Take...well Flash. Need to return to lane quickly? Take Teleport. Need to cross the map in 3 seconds? Take Teleport. Need to gank another lane from across the map? Take Teleport.
Can any other Summoner spell tout such versatility of these two? No they kinda can't and THAT is the problem with Summoner Spells as a whole. Sure you could argue a few extra uses for some of them but the fact that Flash is taken by EVERYONE, ALL the time should be an indicator of it's usefulness.
What really needs to happen is that every other Summoner Spell needs to be buffed to a point of viability.
I mean who takes {{summoner:2}} ? Nobody, because you have this 
and 
Which do the same thing, on a far lower cooldown.
Who takes ? Nobody, because 
and 
exist. (Well, for now at least. Not looking forward to preseason)
Who takes {{summoner:17}} ? Nobody, because nobody plays Dominion (I had to fit that in somewhere)
Support Evelynn1 votesWhat really needs to happen is that every other Summoner Spell needs to be buffed to a point of viability. I mean who takes {{summoner:2}} ? Nobody, because you have this
While I agree Clairvoyance needs changes you're wrong here.
They do not do the same thing, clairvoyance is meant to gather info anywhere on the map and has a suitably large vision circle to do so. By comparison both the scrying orb and farsight orb are shit.
Clairvoyance is on a 60 second CD compared to scrying's 2 mins and farsight's 90 seconds.
Meep Man1 votes
All have that kind of versatility really.
reduces ANY form of damage, meaning if you need to reduce damage for ANY reason, Exhaust can be used
is actually better to chase than Flash and can be argued to be more reliable and better at escapes
Provides both a heal and movement speed boost. Need to survive? Heal. Need to get away? Heal. Need to close that small distance? Heal.
Provides damage and Grievous Wounds. Is the only Summoner Spell that without modifications can deal damage to a champion.
Has literally four (soon to be three) items modifying it to make it more versatile.
Stars Shaper1 votesBut you can always into a wall :3
MrWasjig1 votesYeah if you don't know how to use the damn thing.
Stars Shaper1 votesMy comment was ironic.
MrWasjig1 votesI think you need to look up the definition of irony. Because it's not what you seem to think it is. There was no irony in that statement, it was simply stating something that can happen through use of Flash.
Stars Shaper1 votesOk.. lets try to put it clearer...
I was joking about Flash not having weaknesses by implying that a misuse of the spell brought actually a weakness. But since that would be the same to use TP to a 1 hp tower under siege the point of Flash being far superior to TP stood.
MrWasjig1 votesYes, misuse of the spell. To misuse Flash would require you to be pretty bad at the game in the first place. Because screwing up Flash about 99% of the time requires you to be trying to screw it up. There are plenty of walls that are easily Flashable and plenty that aren't easily Flashable and that you'd be better off not risking.
Stars Shaper1 votesWell, it happened in the Worlds quarter/semi finals so I guess it's still subsceptible to fails.