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In regard to Zhonya's Hourglass: Riot why aren't you doing the things you're purporting to be doing?

MrWasjig··83 votes·4,498 views

PLEASE READ FULLY BEFORE VOTING AND COMMENTING, THANKS <3 EDIT: Oh and if you're just gonna be a dick then please, don't bother commenting at all.

From the patch notes:

>...so we’re going all-in on its identity as a defensive utility item. That decision has allowed us to drop the price of Zhonya’s to the lowest it’s ever been in League history,** making it more readily available in times its stasis effect is truly needed.**

Except you haven't, because you've simultaneously upped the Stasis cooldown to a whopping 120 seconds! (That's Level 1 Ultimate levels of cooldown) So are you really making it more readily available? No not really, because all this change has done has rejigged the gate to the stasis. Before it was Hourglass's cost, now it's the really high cooldown. This change hasn't actually done anything regarding the Stasis active.

Not to mention the armour is also lower thanks to previous nerfs. I'd have said go whole hog or not at all on making it a defensive utility item. Because when we factor in the sheer amount of Armour Pen available to AD Mid-laners that 45 Armour is even weaker.

Am I just not seeing this properly? Or am I really onto something here? Sure, it's considerably more gold efficient than before, even more so as a rush item but I'm just getting mixed signals between what Riot is purporting and what has actually changed.

Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? I'm curious to hear other's thoughts.

136 Comments

Alüe22 votes

They've done this to numerous aspects of the game. For instance, they claimed during the adc rework they didn't want champions to be forced onto build paths to make them viable. Sorta seems like they are enforcing that on mages as of right now with requiring heavy mana users to need those early mana items. Especially artillery mages.

MrWasjig33 votes

Exactly my thoughts as well "We want mages to have more diverse builds!" So why are you forcing them into buying Tear every game just so they can do their job at the baseline level?

Like I said, mixed signals all over.

DeathBurst10 votes

Lost Chapter and Catalyst are very, very good first buy, and all build into mana items. Mages are not forced into Tear at all.

On the Zhonya CD, on the other hand, I agree with you.

Voluug1324 votes

Catalyst is terrible for long range mages that dont receive too much damage.

And Catalyst's passive is trash for squishy mages.

DeathBurst6 votes

I was talking about Mages in general. Cho'Gath or Swain will love it.

And that still leaves Lost Chapter for long range squishy mages. It's at least as good as Tear, and Flat Mana is better than Regen in early game, so you shouldn't be worse than before.

Vistha Kai2 votes

They are AP bruisers, if anything.

Voluug133 votes

Cho is more of a tank though.

And the big problem of LC is the fact that some champions are designed to spam to really do anything, like Orianna and Syndra. Tear is basically a must buy on them due the sheer amounts of mana they use normally.

On mages with big, meaninful spells, yes, LC is better, but on spammy mages Tear is the must buy due to how their mana efficiency is.

MrWasjig9 votes

The problem with that is Cho is first and foremost, a tank. Yeah you might see him buy some mage items but that's because he has ridiculous AP scaling for a tank. But at the end of the day he is still primarily a tank, so he doesn't count.

So that leaves Swain....wow an entire champion! Gosh such variety! Okay so I'm being sarcastic and a little facetious but when you get down to it the variety really isn't there, at least not as much as Riot wants you to think.

macromite5 votes

cho is not a tank. the fact that you think that makes your argument invalid, as you have made clear that you don't know anything.

Voluug1320 votes

He plays like a tank. He has the CC and presence to disrupt enemy teams.

Whoever thinks otherwise needs to check what it means to be a ''tank''.

A ''tank'' is not a meatbag with low damage, and never has been.

MrWasjig6 votes

http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/ Champion Filters: Roles: Tank Oh look, Cho'Gath shows up.

Let's cross check with the Wiki as well: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Cho%27Gath Surprise surprise. Primary Role: TANK Secondary Role: Mage

See that? His secondary role is a mage, and that's largely due to him dishing out stupid numbers of magic damage due to his scalings (Of which I'm surprised Riot hasn't gutted)

You can even check the goddamn client. Attributes: TANK Secondary: Mage.

So as we can see from multiple sources, one official and one 3rd party, Cho'Gath is first and foremost a tank. He's beefy as fuck and has multiple AoE CCs. That seems to fit the bill at the baseline level.

Your arguement is invalid Sir. Thank you for playing.

macromite1 votes

vayne is called an assassin on that. ye, your argument is invalid, it's based on information that is getting changed.

MrWasjig1 votes

It's worth noting she's secondarily classed as an assassin because she has a few qualities of one. Just as misdirection and stealth by way of her ult.

I don't see you providing much counter argument.

macromite1 votes

its because I don't think you are capable of understanding how and argument works, and I refuse to waste my time talking to a wall. just whine and claim some upvotes you brick.

also should mention that you are trying to find a reason why it works instead of it just working, and that's wrong because characters have very different styles, and should fit something 100% if you want to call it something.

MrWasjig1 votes

its because I don't think you are capable of understanding how and argument works, and I refuse to waste my time talking to a wall. just whine and claim some upvotes you brick.

Oh please, stop embarrassing yourself Macro [zombie-brand-facepalm] It's Funny how you say that, and then do exactly that yourself, whine. Glass houses much?

I give about as many fucks about upvotes as I do about your stupid petty opinion on me. Because it's hard to take someone's arguments seriously when they make hypocritical accusations while embarrassing themselves with zero self awareness. If a thread gets upvotes and attention, it gets upvotes and attention, makes no difference to me.

So maybe I was wrong on Cho, fine, whatever. Everyone makes mistakes.

If you're going to partake in civil discussion then by all means, I'll gladly listen. But in the meantime if your entire argument is based on petty personal attacks (I believe that's what we refer to as ad hominem), you cannot be taken seriously.

Pleasure speaking with you Sir. Please let the door hit you on the way out, thanks.

macromite1 votes

congratulations, I was wrong about that last statement.

I apologize for it, so used to people sticking tooth and nail with an idea without bending, so much so that the only way to deal with them is to either do the same or break, however, neither is a good way to deal with this.

If you want a civil discussion i can provide that. though i know only about a few things, I know a lot of those things, such as cho. as a final word of cho i think i have a class distinction that you would be able to agree with.

Chogath Battle mage/Juggernaut

MrWasjig1 votes

Honestly I've stopped caring about Cho, people can call him whatever the fuck they want because it doesn't matter what I say at this point, nobody will agree. (Seems nobody can agree on anything on the boards, it's all "I disagree for the sake of disagreeing!" in my experience).

I apologize for it, so used to people sticking tooth and nail with an idea without bending, so much so that the only way to deal with them is to either do the same or break, however, neither is a good way to deal with this.

Nothing justifies being an asshole. Just remember that in future. Nobody likes talking with an asshole. At the very least you apologised and that's more than most would do :P

I'm done. Peace.

DeathBurst3 votes

Humm, you know that this tags still include Support as a class? And only have Fighters, but no mention of Divers, Juggernaut, Skirmishers, etc.? In short, that they are outdated as hell?

I wouldn't use that as an argument, if I were you. It only shows that you don't keep up to date with game design and dev blog articles...

EDIT: also, your "multiple sources", it makes me laugh. LoL.com website and the game client use the same database in the backend, and the wikia is just a community-maintained mirror of the previous 2. Of course they concord...

MrWasjig2 votes

Point stands, Cho hasn't officially been taken into any consideration with any of these changes. Ergo, he doesn't count. He builds usually builds tank items and perhaps one AP item. Usually Rod of Ages.

But we're not talking about tanks here, that's the entire point I'm making by saying he doesn't count. (Or AP Bruiser, or whatever other name you want to use. It's only nomenclature)

DeathBurst3 votes

Well, nomenclature aside, champion.gg tells me Cho'Gath mid builds between 3 and 6 mage items. So you're factually wrong, and he counts.

But anyway, even if he didn't count ("if"), I already said:

that still leaves Lost Chapter for long range squishy mages. It's at least as good as Tear, and Flat Mana is better than Regen in early game, so you shouldn't be worse than before.

And you never answered to that, I wonder why... Maybe because it directly contradicts your affirmation that Riot is corralling Mages into a single build? It's not "mixed signals" from Riot, it's you not understanding the new items and the new ecosystem.

(Oh, and before you try changing the subject yet another time, here is another thing I already said:)

On the Zhonya CD, on the other hand, I agree with you.

Mai Waifu Irelia2 votes

That is such a narrow minded argument. Wow people take an ap tank to mid and build AP, big whoop its a fucking mage lane. People play full ap malphite mid too. Malphite is still a tank. Cho'gath is a tank whether you like it or not. Do you include maokai in the list of mages that work with roa? Seeing the point yet?

DeathBurst2 votes

In case you don't know what champion.gg is, it doesn't list off-builds bought once in a blue moon... Cho Mid builds primarily as a Mage, and it's a noticeable fraction of his pickrate. And, as someone else already explained in this thread, Cho is definitely not a Tank, or Swain, Karthus and Anivia would be Tanks too...

Now, I know I'm right about Cho, but even if you believe I'm wrong, maybe you could stop nitpicking about that and come back to the actual initial point of this comment thread, namely "Riot is sending mixed signals and isforcing all mages to build Tear". That statement by OP is wrong, even if you exclude Battle Mages from the Mages (you shouldn't, but even if you do, the statement's still wrong). That's why I answered him, and Cho was only an example. Even if you disagree with my example, again the general statement's still wrong.

Lost Chapter is a good item for (non Battle) Mages, and I can see a few of them going for Catalyst too (Annie, Lissandra; free spells+catalyst = free HP). Tear has been made more usable by more people, not only guys with a 30-50 mana spell they can spam, and that's a good thing, but that doesn't mean all Mages are now suddenly forced to go for Tear.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

He's built as a tank sometimes. His R lets him have a lot of HP and he has good CC with his Silence/Knockup. He's a really good tank, too.

Edit: That's at Macromite. Wtf forums.

macromite1 votes

actually i think you might be a victim of maximum thread length. everyone trying to reply is just posting on this post over and over. sorry about that.

MrWasjig1 votes

Okay, fine. You got me. I'll concede I'm wrong on this one because I've got nothing to provide a counter argument with. Never let it be said MrWasjig can't swallow his pride and admit being incorrect.

Least you can do is be less of a dick about being right :P

And to clarify I didn't try changing the subject matter at all. We were talking about Cho'Gath. I spoke about Cho'Gath. Simple as.

But if you **really ** want a word on the subject of mana regen, fair enough flat mana is good early instead of regen but what about after that though? Considering some spells get crazy expensive come their 5th level, mid-late game flat mana alone isn't going to cut it. But Riot is still pushing mages away from regen. I might be missing something big on this front but that's what I can gleam from their intended direction.

~~Good ~~ day Sir.

DeathBurst1 votes

No, I really want a word on "Riot is forcing every mage to build Tear", because even if you exclude Cho'Gath and other Battle Mages from the Mages, the "traditional" mid-long range squishy mages still have Lost Chapter into Morello as a good first buy. My comment about Regen was to highlight that LC/new Morello are better than old Morello in early game (even if they are worse in late, but I'm not convinced about that). So if you were buying Morello first before 6.9, you should still like it a lot now, and you are not forced into Tear-builds.

Athene has been changed into a supportive item, but that doesn't mean you cannot build it on Oriana or Lulu Mid depending on the rest of your Team comp.

For Artillery mages that bought Athene before, yes, you should probably go for Tear now, but even without Tear, if you build something like RoA/Morello/GLP007, you should have plenty of mana, even in late game (and those are 3 good items even if you don't take the mana into account).

Now, if you do accept to take Battle Mages into account, or even champs like Annie and Lissandra, or if you take an off-meta pick and go top with a Mage against a Melee champ, you also have a whole category of Mages that will like the new Catalyst a lot, either into RoA for the pile of stats or into GLP for the defense/utility, depending on your playstyle.

So we were not really talking about Cho'Gath. I mentioned Cho as an example of the many cases above. If you disagree about Cho, well... There are still a LOT of other cases where you can build something else than Tear. Yeah, you won't have any Regen anymore. But on the other side, Tear isn't the only good Flat Mana item anymore, and that's the "somehting big" you've been missing. So "no regen" doesn't force you into "only tear".

MrWasjig2 votes

Alright point made. Clearly I didn't look into this deep enough, and that comment was short sighted.

What more do you want from me? :P I've already conceded to being incorrect, the discussion is done, your point is made.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

The in-client class listings haven't been accurate for many champions for years. For example, according to the classing Blitz isn't a support, nor Nautilus, and Mordekaiser isn't a mage, but Warwick (with 0 defensive scalings and his only CC tied to his ult) is a tank.

MrWasjig22 votes

And Catalyst's passive is trash for squishy mages.

Could not have said it better myself. I really don't get the thinking on this item :P Especially once lane has ended. Most times you'll take damage is either simple poke, or more detrimentally, when you get all-in'd. On a squishy champion you won't last very long to make use of the health restore.

Vellich0r2 votes

thats because the build should suite the play pattern. Just like adc's have a best build path depending on their role (Essence reaver, or infinity edge with the occasional bork)

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

They've done this to numerous aspects of the game. For instance, they claimed during the adc rework they didn't want champions to be forced onto build paths to make them viable. Sorta seems like they are enforcing that on mages as of right now with requiring heavy mana users to need those early mana items. Especially artillery mages.

Something I've noticed, Riot Doesn't have much to say what should be. But a lot about what shouldn't be.

And it seems like Riot was pushing the Maximum mana, ONLY, because they royally hated Mana regen. (at least on anyone who was damage oriented.)

The only alternative to not forcing a mana build would to make any form of mana gating a joke, except that would have the same problem that riot had with Regen in the first place.

MrWasjig6 votes

Something I've noticed, Riot Doesn't have much to say what should be. But a lot about what shouldn't be.

I've noticed this as well. It stills seems massively arbitrary to say "Utility (support) champions have mana regen, mages have flat mana! ONE MAY NOT HAVE THE OTHER!" Yeah but...why? Just because you've decreed it so?

Gesterr2 votes

They actually did say why in an older post (though admittedly not in the patch notes from which you quoted as it should've been reiterated there), they want to differentiate the stats AP midlaners and AP supports desire with the goal being that midlaners will stop abusing support items forcing them to gut said items for both roles.

MrWasjig1 votes

with the goal being that midlaners will stop abusing support items forcing them to gut said items for both roles.

THANK YOU! <3 See that's all I wanted, a nice concise explanation so good job digging that one up. Now I'm all in favour of this split given that that's the intention.

Atanchan2 votes

They've actually explained this.

Supports, by their nature, are not allowed a lot of freedom. They have to be constantly on the roam to ward, cover teammates, set up teamfights, and just be around the map all the time. They aren't allowed to go back often, but at the same time they can't have much downtime, so they need regen to operate.

Mages, on the other hand, have a far broader amount of roles to them. Sure, there're mages that want to roam all over the place and get stuff done, but before they're more powerful than supports the supports don't really have mana regen anyway, and once they are more powerful gating their power by forcing them to go back or keep blue buff on themselves can keep them from becoming excessive. But that's just one class of mage - and if they had mana regen items, then so would the mages that just constantly wave clear and poke down the enemy team and the barrages would never stop.

I'd also like the bring back up the point that early on, mana regen is flat-out terrible pretty much. Alternative sources of mana regain are far more potent and so is maximum mana, all without tricking the player into thinking that they'll be able to do more if they just stayed out for a bit longer. Not only do you get more spells out of max mana early on, but it helps keep it obvious when you should go back if you don't have access to blue buff.

Penns14 votes

sheer amount of armor pen available to AD mid laners

item 3147 + item 3156 + item 3142 = 40 armor pen Stacked item 3191 = 45 armor

shiet lel

MrWasjig5 votes

Yeah, so you get where I'm coming from on this.

Hyperiön4 votes

Don't forget Black Cleaver too. And LDR if they build that too

MrWasjig1 votes

I was largely referring to lane, and I don't often see Assassins building either of those since once they have Maw, DuskBlade and Youmuu's (Or any combination of the three) rarely do they need anymore to take out their standard prey. Usually because the amount of armour pen is enough

Hyperiön1 votes

True, but whenever i play talon/zed, I almost always put the black cleaver in, on top of those 3 items you mentioned. It allows me to brawl with the heavy tanks/juggernauts.

MrWasjig2 votes

While that works just fine it's outside of the context here, that is to say mages.

MLDzXnRRR4 votes

{quoted}

item 3147 + item 3156 + item 3142 = 40 armor pen Stacked item 3191 = 45 armor

shiet lel

So, they need 10k gold to penetrate your 1200 armor and you still have 5 armor. Nerf assasins, RITO...

Alüe9 votes

Considering all 3 of those items have active traits that are actually useful with decent stats. Nerf plox, especially hex drinker 35 Mr is rediculous...

Bottom Laner1 votes

1200 armor

not everyone plays malphite :/

Atanchan1 votes

1200 gold cost armor, he meant.

He was making a point on how a single armor item counters the flat penetration parts of an entire 10k cost group of item.

Kotex14 votes

Zhonya CD = 120. Not affected by CDR

Death Mark rank 1 CD = 120(100/80). Not counting CDR sources so basically itll always come back up before Zhonyas after the first activation up to twice as fast WITH cdr.

MrWasjig2 votes

Thank for doing the maths. But even without it we could still figure out that Zhonya's would still be a subpar counter to Zed.

Kotex2 votes

{quoted}

Thank for doing the maths. But even without it we could still figure out that Zhonya's would still be a subpar counter to Zed.

I was just using that as an example :|

Leetri2 votes

That is assuming Zed will always be in a position to ult you the instant it comes up.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Because an item should definitely completely nullify a champion right?

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