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Some of the nerfs on the PBE right now are Cinderhulk all over again

MrWasjig··185 votes·8,075 views

(Hot damn this has gained some traction. Wasn't expecting that. At least keep discussion civil whilst you're here. Thanks)

We all remember what happened when Cinderhulk was released, it became the "Must-Buy" item for tank junglers which resulted in tank junglers (and tanks in general) to become really strong.

So this of course resulted in some nerfs, the biggest of which was to Sejuani as we all know, but then later on Riot nerfed Cinderhulk and left Sejuani in a....not a dumpstered position but a significantly weaker one compared to pre-CH.

And now Riot are nerfing Swain and Brand because they synergize too well with Deathfire Touch. Anyone else see history repeating itself here?

Instead of taking care of the root of the problem Riot are instead nerfing those that benefit really well from it. What is it with Riot's "Shoot first ask questions later" nerfing strategy?

"Boss, Cindferhulk is really strong" "Nerf the benefactors!" "But shouldn't we nerf Cinderh-" "NO! Cinderhulk is fine!"

[One nerf hammer later]

"Hey boss, Cinderhulk is still strong" "Nerf Cinderhulk!" "Okay, should we undo previous nerfs to the benefactors?" "Sorry I can't hear over the sound of my MONEY!"

Because pre-CH, while Sej was underplayed she was in a pretty good position and the only reason she needed nerfing was because CINDERHULK was too good. Not Sejuani.

But http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/c/c5/Grinds-my-gears1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100119021134

Is the fact that they didn't employ this "Shoot first ask questions later" strategy when it came to Tryndamere, Yasuo and Warlord's Bloodlust. "Hey Riot, Trynd and Yas are really strong with Warlord's Bloodlust" "Okay we'll nerf it to only proc on champions, but won't go anywhere near Tryndamere or Yasuo, they good!" Why? Because Season 6 is the Season of Crit and god-forbid any Crit based champion sees unviability in the slightest!

The bias is so thick I could take a freaking chainsaw to it! Please tell me I'm not the only one who's seeing the bias here. Or am I just another salty QQer because I don't play either Tryndamere or Yasuo?

238 Comments

M0b1us61 votes

Also WW and his preemptive nerf when feral flare was released.

MrWasjig29 votes

Another example of "shoot first-etc". I didn't see them pre-preemptively nerf Trynd or Yasuo. Hmmmmmmhh? Odd don'tcha think?

A Liberal2 votes

They nerfed ashe before

maikokk4 votes

well, no.

they actually buffed her to compensate for the synergy that she would have had with the mastery if they still called her bonus damage "crit"

SettDownShutUp16 votes

Well, you're not wrong.

MrWasjig4 votes

Nice to see someone agrees at least.

M0b1us13 votes

{quoted}

Nice to see someone agrees at least.

Sadly it really doesn't matter. Riot HATES it when people disagree with them. Its called confirmation bias.

MrWasjig8 votes

Well that much is obvious COUGH Lee Sin COUGH But that's their biggest problem. They ask for feedback on stuff but then they largely ignore it, or if it's something that they don't want to hear, even if it's something that people think is a better idea they again, ignore it

MisterHealYoGirl11 votes

That's actually not what confirmation bias is. Confirmation bias is when people subconsciously seek out information that supports their point, not when they disregard other opinions. People typically aren't aware of confirmation bias operating; once they become aware of the other information, it's served its time and other factors come into play.

M0b1us6 votes

{quoted}

That's actually not what confirmation bias is. Confirmation bias is when people subconsciously seek out information that supports their point, not when they disregard other opinions. People typically aren't aware of confirmation bias operating; once they become aware of the other information, it's served its time and other factors come into play.

Actually you are incorrect because your definition is slightly off. Confirmation bias does not have to be subconscious. Confirmation bias is defined as the tendency of one to seek/interpret data/information that confirms ones hypothesis, preconceptions or ideals.

Even when presented with data that opposes ones hypothesis, confirmation bias can still exist. This is because often people experiencing confirmation bias have the tendency to ignore, discredit or undervalue opposing arguments. What you are talking about is more along the lines of "expecting to be right".

Example, I was developing a PID controller for a ball and plate system for our senior design project about a year ago. My theory was that I could look at a much easier example (ball and beam) and modify it to account for the additional 4 degrees of motion. Although one of my friends who was working on it said that it wouldn't be that simple. So I actively looked for evidence and models that would support my argument. When I found evidence showing otherwise, I took it into consideration but still thought my idea was correct but just didn't account for slippage. There was never a subconscious desire.

Keevalroy12 votes

So even though they said if he ever got above a 50% win rate he would be considered too strong because of his learning curve, and even though he's been at 50+ and growing for months, Riot is still refusing to touch Yasuo? Huh, I'm shocked. Shocked and amazed!

Kappa.

DarkSunSovereign5 votes

{quoted}

Huh, I'm shocked.

You'll be even more shocked when he gets statikk shiv.

Ok I'll go now...

FarRockBF10 votes

I dun't know about this. I mean I love Brand but from rito's perspective you need to stop looking at the past. Going forward if the Swain/Brand nerfs do make Deathfire perfectly balanced then what; we nerfed two champs to make a new item balanced for the entire mage pool? That seems like a good trade-off for League overall.

MrWasjig44 votes

Stop looking at the past? If people did that we'd never learn from mistakes. History has brought us many wonderful things, like the polio vaccine and knowing not to put lead in the water pipes.

Look I'm not against nerfing abusers BUT, and this is a big butt, if they later nerf DFT as well and leave Brand and Swain worse off then history will have repeated itself and Riot will just prove to us that they don't learn. Because before DFT Swain and Brand were FINE. Not overpowered, not underopwered, a little underpicked but they were fine.

7ha7guy7777 votes

They're also nerfing DFT for DoTs next patch. The ap ratio on a 4 second DoT is going down by 9%

MrWasjig17 votes

And thus history will repeat itself. Unless they revert one of the set of nerfs. Honestly they can nerf one or the other NOT both. (DFT or Swain & Brand)

Because double nerfing is what happened Sej and Cinderhulk and now both are just "meh".

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

The nerfs to brand and swain are going to be hardly noticeable anyway. Slightly bigger mana costs to brand W means you can't spam it willy-nilly (OH NO!) and the Swain nerf isnt going to change much since a root in lane is like another auto or two since all of your damage is dot based anyway. You max root second so by the time meaningful team fights come around it will be at least 1.6 seconds which a 0.4 sec drop won't change much and that is even if you LAND the root.

You are all treating these love taps like they are ruining the champion. Neither of their damage were touched and will still be just as strong in team fights (especially brand since mana costs are irrelevant when you are at full mana).

BluePolarizer8 votes

but they absolutely gutted skarner, hecarim and anivia.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Hecarim and Skarner nerfs I'm not to sure about (mainly health nerf to hec since unit collision doesn't mean much currently with the bad pathing and was still QoL more than anything) but the Anivia nerfs only raise the skill ceiling since Anivia landing the Q won't change much and the fact the ult slow stayed for 2 seconds after you left the zone was a bit excessive. I feel like the Q change is like the Rammus Powerball change....why should it slow for so long if you are going to be hard cc'd for over half the duration of the slow?

BluePolarizer7 votes

no unit collision actually is a central part of playing top lane Hecarim, where you could hit the enemy then retreat straight across the minion line to take no damage from melee minions while if they fought back, they'd take the damage of your entire wave. This makes up for the fact that without minions, Hecarim is not that good at dueling.

Kuroi862 votes

no unit collision actually is a central part of playing top lane Hecarim

... I get the feeling top lane Hecarim is EXACTLY why he's getting nerfed. I now dislike you.

SirHeavyScrotum2 votes

The hell is wrong with top lane heca?

Kuroi861 votes

What isn't! Hecarim was designed to roam, to run, you can't hardly do that if you're sitting top lane unless you forego towers in order to roam all day long.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

Calm down PETA

Kuroi862 votes

Hey now! Just because I've taken out a few Nasus and Rengar in my day there's no reason to get nasty!

Jeez, next you'll accuse me of voting for Teemo in the last election.

LeeDark2 votes

You might want to rethink that, because right now, Sejuani is sitting ABOVE 50% win rate.

If history is repeating itself, it is in the fans of a couple of champions seriously overreacting to minor, DESERVED nerfs.

MrWasjig7 votes

Before I do, you might want to rethink your evidence. Win rate alone is not enough of statistic to argue a champion's balance because it can be skewed by pick rate. Not to mention other factors that can be taken into account.

Anags6 votes

That is partially due to the very strong tank masteries which are getting nerfed soon anyway. It's the reason most tanks are doing well. Also, last whisper isn't as effective early.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

Because double nerfing is what happened Sej and Cinderhulk and now both are just "meh".

The thing is... "meh" is what people say about balanced champions, when they want to chase the OP of the week. To say that a champion is "meh" is not actually an argument against them being balanced.

MrWasjig6 votes

To say that a champion is "meh" is not actually an argument against them being balanced.

How is it not? I'm describing how they are. Would you prefer I use another adjective? Mediocre? Average? Middle-of-the-road?

ThatH1N12 votes

{quoted}

Stop looking at the past? If people did that we'd never learn from mistakes. History has brought us many wonderful things, like the polio vaccine

The polio vaccine caused more polio,

http://nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bill-gates-polio-vaccine-program-caused-47500-cases-of-paralysis-death/

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/polio-vaccines-now-1-cause-polio-paralysis

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/03/the-polio-vaccine-part-2-2/

http://rense.com/general3/polio.htm

Just making sure you know the polio vaccine is (like all other vaccines) no good.

Anidan15 votes

You're really going to try convince people that vaccines aren't good?

Without even clicking those links, I think I can tell by the url name where their bias stands. They have something to gain by spreading lies about how bad vaccines are. Do you?

ThatH1N12 votes

{quoted}

You're really going to try convince people that vaccines aren't good?

Without even clicking those links, I think I can tell by the url name where their bias stands. They have something to gain by spreading lies about how bad vaccines are. Do you?

Only the one link is like that the others are MSM. I am just stating facts. When/if you ever have kids just please do your research before pumping them full of poison.

MrWasjig9 votes

Keep political and controversial IRL bullshit outta this thread thanks.

Rubber Jesus12 votes

Apparently he wants to buff measles and polio around the world, while also nerfing the health of infants and immunocompromised. GG. Surrender at 20.

Westonbirt5 votes

Come on, vaccines are the only effective counter to Malzahar.

This is like the 1913 Twitch situation all over again.

MrWasjig12 votes

I'll remind you of vaccines causing more of what they prevent next time an epidemic rolls in and you refuse to get vaccinated.

ThatH1N14 votes

{quoted}

I'll remind you of vaccines causing more of what they prevent next time an epidemic rolls in and you refuse to get vaccinated.

I have never been vaccinated, never been sick. Let me ask you. IF these vaccines work, what does it matter to you if I don't get one? You are protected right? You are right about them causing more problems than they fix though. Search engine "clean vaccines for the rich in Europe and japan" Some people don't get the bad stuff with the Mercury, aluminum and SV-40 in it, why do the rest of us.....? Just trying to help you, this stuff could save you or your families lives, especially children.

ModAcademy Kayn13 votes

"I have never been Vaccinated, never been sick"

Yeah, because one example is supposed to support an entire population of people. Let people know that I made the best drink ever, because I thought that it tasted the best.

Rubber Jesus4 votes

Also, he needs to tell that to the 131 children in California who contracted measles.

Edit: Forgot to mention, this was in 2015. From December 2014 to April 2015. Because those parents said the same thing.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

[deleted]

MrWasjig9 votes

It hasn't been nerfed yet. But these changes are currently on the PBE:

Deathfire Touch [Ferocity- Tier 6] [Damage changed] Base Damage changed to [8 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 4 seconds] from [6 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 3 seconds] [Duration changed] Burn Duration for Single target increased to 4 seconds from 3 seconds. Burn Duration for AoE increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds Burn Duration for damage over time decreased to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

Next time please do your research before you call people"fucking morons". Because that's exactly what you've made yourself.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

{quoted}

It hasn't been nerfed yet. But these changes are currently on the PBE: [Damage changed] Base Damage changed to [8 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 4 seconds] from [6 + 50% bonus AD & 20% AP over 3 seconds] [Duration changed] Burn Duration for Single target increased to 4 seconds from 3 seconds. Burn Duration for AoE increased to 2 seconds from 1.5 seconds Burn Duration for damage over time decreased to 1 second from 1.5 seconds.

Next time please do your research before you call people"fucking morons". Because that's exactly what you've made yourself.

by "is nerfed" i was meaning that they plan to nerf it, i'm not dumb

MrWasjig15 votes

Then don't make comments that make you seem that way, and people won't assume you are.

commit an hero9 votes

Another reason why Brand is so strong is his two item power spike. After that he starts to fall off. With games ending really early he is in a good spot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svBWjQvl9ok

Troll for Trump2 votes

What no, brand's late game and teamfight potential is still really good, almost as good as his midgame powerspike.

commit an hero1 votes

{quoted}

What no, brand's late game and teamfight potential is still really good, almost as good as his midgame powerspike.

http://champion.gg/champion/Brand Stats say otherwise. He has a mid-game power spike then falls off.

Troll for Trump1 votes

In the current meta, "late game" is 25-30 mins. The statistic offered are quite misleading. The site says Nasus is better at 30-35 min than he is 40+ min. Nasus is always stronger as the game progresses. Yasuo is a lategame hypercarry, yet his winrate lowers as the match progresses past 30 mins It should look at least somewhat similar to Vayne's curve, but it's not.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

I think that the main issue is that although DfT is too strong on DoT champions, it's a little too weak on other champions, especially compared to the AD masteries. Trying to bring it in line for all champs lets them do more with it.

MrWasjig13 votes

A better idea would be to add more masteries that are attractive to mages in general. Because Thunderlord's Decree is phenomenally "meh" and Deathfire Touch is meh on non-DoT mages, but has fantastic synergy on DoT mages.

Everything else is pretty worthless on mages as a whole. So that leaves us with two choices, and neither choice feels particularly good unless you're a DoT mage (and even then you only have one actual good decision). An argument I've made against the new masteries since release is how restrictive they are in terms of choices and options.

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