Ivern's winrate is going to be low, since no one understands his kit completely yet.
Please refrain from "buff ivern" posts until patch 6.22
87 Comments
Malicious Metal5 votesLike Tayiah buffs? Or Yasuo? Or Fiora? Or Darius?
Marshbouy3 votesExactly like that.
Penns1 votesThose champs have a pretty strong kit tho. But Ivern anywhere below like high diamond... Idk.
Wind Whistler1 votesThose champs have a pretty strong kit tho. But Ivern anywhere below like high diamond... Idk.
No matter what you say, you almost always seem to get downvoted. Maybe some people just see your name nowadays and automatically downvote you?
Penns1 votesI dunno.. Maybe people think Iverns kit is strong in lower elos :o
Sightless663 votesOr Bard.
Wait....
Unstoppable Monk1 votesOr Bard.
Wait....
People doing extremely bad as a support type while playing the new champion? Never seen it in my life.
Sightless661 votesI was talking more about the need for huge buffs post-launch, but that applies too.
Death by Kayn1 votesOh god. Yasuo's post-release buffs still give me shivers
Lady Hammerlock1 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=whPwByPT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-09T22:53:22.681+0000)
Like Tayiah buffs? Or Yasuo? Or Fiora? Or Darius?
Oh god Malicious don't remind me how the first thought in everyones head back in season 5 community:"Oh hey Fiora is weak, she needs buffs ASAP RITO" Riot"Wait isn't there another champion with %health true damage you guys hate?" Community:"BUFF HER" Riot:"well don't pin it on us.."
few weeks later Community:"WHAT THE HECK DID YOU DO" Riot:"...."
Jacknife5 votesOf course he's gonna be bad at first, especially in Ranked. His kit is practically surrounded around the idea of supporting from the jungle. He's still pretty team-dependent when it comes to reaching max effectiveness. On top of that he's got a bit of a skill ceiling (not super high, but you're not gonna figure him out in just a few games). The fact that he's new on top of all that, his winrate is not gonna be a component that reflects his actual power. Not yet anyway.
Supreme Senpai691 votesPlus he's permabanned and people keep trying to play him as a support because they can't play him as a jungler cuz he's permabanned. Honestly if I queue as a jungle/support, get support and see he isn't banned, I'll probably even play him as a support (in normals anyway but people are doing it in ranked too.) His support winrate will bring it down and his inexperience from nobody even being ABLE to play him will force it down. Like Taliyah and Aurelion Sol we should wait (and not change any Ws around here just because some people want it despite being too new to know!)
Aakesh3 votesHe a team base champ team needs to know how he works/work with him get full use out of his kit on top of this People keep forgetting drop wards in the bushes he makes they deny vision on both sides
TeCoolMage1 votesEven if they do remember to drop wards: the trinket cooldown makes sure the river bushes are unwarded if they sacrifice it on ivern bushes.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesi think hes really strong. pema cc. good damage. i think hes really strong tbh. i could be wrong but i think hes fine
Shadow Hazard2 votesDoesn't help that nunu is rocking out as the superior support/tank/counter jungler
Apollocliptic5 votesNunu is not a superior "support" and while he is good at counter jungling, Ivern can do it so fast that even when the enemy is there they often fail to stop him
Wizardavar2 votesIvern is reliant on smite CD, and lacks mobility/tankiness to take control of the energy jungle. For Ivern to counterjungle, he has to be sure that the enemy jungler is somewhere far away. Nunu can just stroll, Q+smite, and flash emote while running out. But Nunu and Ivern cover different bases in my view. Ivern is much better at ganking and empowering the ally team, nunu just make the enemy jungler poor.
Apollocliptic3 votesBy that logic, Nunu is relying on smite too?
Ivern can build tanky too, especially for early, but in direct combat, nunu would win most times, so yeah, his counter jungle is more dangerous. However, as Ivern fits the "support" role better, picking up more vision items is standard, he doesn't need much else, so an early pink is my usual way to go, and he can steal blue/red even if enemy is nearby, only if they start red/blue can they stop him before he lands the passive. His root stops them from chasing so he doesn't need mobility, and he is instantly level 2 so he can either use shield and out or brush.
He can even start brush so you can't stop him even if you are there unless you are standing in it or ward it, not advised though, too risky.
And at level 2, he will out trade level 1 nunu
There are many scenarios and Ivern is far from perfect, but it takes 2 seconds to take any jungle camp, if it's red, he has full hp after, regardless he is instantly level two, and his runes are better suited for early game trading, or late game, depending on his intended play style, since he doesn't need any jungle based runes or masteries.
TeCoolMage2 votes
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Best build ever on Ivern, emphasizes the huge shield, synergy with Daisy, and lets you work as a nearly 2v1 force by having even more powerful bush autos.
Apollocliptic2 votesI tried a similar build, his damage output is actually quite high and I could solo Baron by like level 14, but against "moving" opponents, it is unreliable, it is too easy to burst Ivern or move out of his range (since he requires the bushes to get his max damage output), so either the enemy moves away from his brush and his power suddenly drops after a couple seconds, or they jump directly onto him, no mobility and he blows up. I ended up going more bruiser/survivability build, he deals "Ok" damage, but supports and disrupts very well, and enemies that focus him actually have a harder time, because he's like a squishy but his role in a fight is more like a tank, so they either take more damage from Daisy, or from the rest of the team.
My usual build I can take 2v1 normally, and in teamfight, even if I die, I usually make it impossible for the enemy to push or take an objective, because the "carry" on the team is still alive, and they are low.
TeCoolMage1 votesyeah with the build I gave Ivern is like a juggernaut, or pre rework malzahar in a way, he zones off the entire enemy team by making their engages more risky, but when he engages it's not particularly powerful.
Maybe replace Liandries with Rapid Fire Cannon and Nashor's tooth or Rylai's with Lichbane. 80-95% AP at a huge range every so often + good CC and utility.
Apollocliptic1 votesThat's interesting, as a "counter-engage" tactic it might be worth trying, though I would definitely recommend Hourglass, to avoid getting blown up, and to give Daisy more time to deal her damage. It's usually my first complete item because his impact gets a sudden burst, while the other items I tried, he tends to have a smaller impact on their own, and it takes too long to get the combo (like nashors tooth is very strong on him, but by the time he finishes it, he won't be able to do much with it; I would rather build it for the late game, but then it's situational and i might go something else)
Also, since his damage is mostly dps, I don't think void is impact on him overall, but I could be wrong there, I am still trying to understand the best use of Magic Pen over flat magic damage when not fighting mr heavy tanks
edit: removed one bit because I was thinking of the build someone else said with BotK
TeCoolMage1 votesVoid staff is actually just a cheaper version of DCap in terms of damage against squishy targets, in general DCap will do more damage, affect shield ratios and have better late game, but void staff can potentially do more damage if everyone stacks up a whole lot of MR, otherwise you just get it when you want DCap like damage increases earlier as it's more efficient, works with base damage, and still has noticeable increases against low MR champions.
Flat MPen is probably almost always better than % MPen but it's tied to items like Liandries and boots, and is generally rare. There's no dedicated flat MPen damage item.
As for DPS, DPS champions like Cassiopeia and Teemo probably use Void staff the best, as it's an item that still lets you burst, but also deals with tanks. DPS is better against tanks anyway, which is why champions like Zed don't builid Last Whisper.
Apollocliptic1 votesFair enough, I did notice that when I started building an early Void staff on Taliyah her damage spike is quite significant regardless of the enemy build, compared to my old build paths that included a liandrys after Rylais, or an hourglass or Abyssal for survivability
As for Ivern, I just felt as though his damage wouldn't increase as much with void because he's not bursting, and is better that he survives longer to apply that damage over time. That said, I will consider your advice and experiment a bit more.
It Hertz When IP1 votesI vaguely recall reading someone's math breakdown that Void Staff adds more damage than Deathcap unless your AP is over 500 already, or your AP ratios are extremely high.
Taliban Zilean1 votes
Best build ever on Ivern, emphasizes the huge shield, synergy with Daisy, and lets you work as a nearly 2v1 force by having even more powerful bush autos.
athene is useless u will never run out of mana when u use the auto attack build, put hextech gun cos it will heal u of the ap dmg on w
TeCoolMage1 votesHextech revolver doesn't have spellvamp anymore.
Athene's is no longer mainly for mana.
The Governer1 votesI think he meant Hextech Gunblade, which technically still provides spell vamp and life steal (even on true damage).
TeCoolMage1 votesActually it's neither, Hextech Gunblade's healing isn't life steal or spell vamp, it's a completely different passive/effect. Either way it's pretty crap on Ivern
The Governer1 votesI know it's neither, and that's why I used the word "technically". Comprehension is important when you read anything.
TeCoolMage1 votesUm, no. It's 'technically' not life steal or spell vamp, it's technically called omnivore despite being regularly called spell vamp. Comprehension means nothing if you have a flawed vocabulary.
The Governer1 votesIf you have to use specialized League of Legends-only vocabulary, then of course you are right. I am just saying what smurf4niki possibly meant, whether or not the terms themselves are "politically right" or not is not my concern. Knock it off.
TeCoolMage1 votesNo, that's literally what 'technically' is used for, in all situations, even outside of league. "Even though x is usually considered correct, it is technically y."
I don't care if you're saying what you think smurf4niki meant, that's not even what 'politically right' means (btw even if you got it right, it's actually called 'politically correct'). It is, however, your concern if you decide to be a hypocrite and try to correct my English while being incorrect yourself.
So no, I'm not going to knock it off, especially since you're the one in the wrong here.
The Governer1 votesRight, smarty-pant keyboard warrior. Arguing over a pointless word does indeed make you smart. You are the one who brought up spell vamp even though smurf4niki said nothing (read), and absolutely nothing regarding "spell vamp". I was just trying to chime in by saying Hextech Gunblade did, in some sense, bring spell vamp, and then you proceeded to be a Vocabulary Nazi even though you were the one who mentioned it first in the first place.
What a great era to be on the Internet.
Also take some chill pill. If you are going to be full on confrontational over something so trivial, you need to go outside and/or relax a little bit.
TeCoolMage1 votesArguing over a pointless word does indeed make you smart.
.
why I used the word "technically"
More hypocrisy right there. Maybe you should've just said, "true" rather than try to insult my 'comprehension' with your flawed usage of 'technically' then acting like a victim right after being called out on it.
Right, smarty-pant keyboard warrior.
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Comprehension is important when you read anything. Knock it off. you proceeded to be a Vocabulary Nazi
Wow so I'm the keyboard warrior here? Stating actual facts while you have to end everything with a hypocritical insult (would actually be alright with they were accurate in any way, but nope.)
What a great era to be on the Internet.
Yeah, what a great era to be on the internet, where people try to distance themselves from the problem despite being part of it. Good job.
I'm just going to continue doing this as it's fun seeing how deluded you are into thinking you're a bystander looking at the internet and saying, "god I wish these people didn't exist because they make the internet a terrible place." when you are, in fact, one of those (bottom layer too) people.
EDIT:
Also take some chill pill. If you are going to be full on confrontational over something so trivial, you need to go outside and/or relax a little bit.
.
Actually it's neither
into
Comprehension is important when you read anything.
then
Um, no. It's 'technically' not life steal or spell vamp Comprehension means nothing if you have a flawed vocabulary.
into
Knock it off.
and eventually
Right, smarty-pant keyboard warrior. What a great era to be on the Internet.
hypocrite.
The Governer1 votes.
More hypocrisy right there. Maybe you should've just said, "true" rather than try to insult my 'comprehension' with your flawed usage of 'technically' then acting like a victim right after being called out on it.
.
LMFAO. I didn't insult your comprehension skill, or did I? Reading too much into someone's words without taking tone and the context into the equation, especially when that "someone" happens to be the one you are in the heat of the argument with (Bias is the key factor here), is dangerous. I was just saying you probably needed to re-read the whole sentence before judging me. Also, you got all worked up over something trivial. That's the sign of you needing to relax.
Wow so I'm the keyboard warrior here? Stating actual facts while you have to end everything with a hypocritical insult (would actually be alright with they were accurate in any way, but nope.)
Yeah, what a great era to be on the internet, where people try to distance themselves from the problem despite being part of it. Good job.
I'm just going to continue doing this as it's fun seeing how deluded you are into thinking you're a bystander looking at the internet and saying, "god I wish these people didn't exist because they make the internet a terrible place." when you are, in fact, one of those (bottom layer too) people.
EDIT:
.
into
hypocrite.
Also if you want to be technical, Omnivore ("technically" speaking it can also be called Omnivamp) = spell vamp + life steal. "Omni-" here means "of all things, in all kinds of ways", which means all kinds of damage-into-healing conversion are considered (and there are only 2 types of damage-into-healing conversions anyways, technically. The only exception here i can think of is red buff, which should also heal whoever wields Hextech Gunblade). so neither of us were wrong in terms of technical terms. You were wrong, however, for correcting me. You were only stating part of the actual facts, not all.
Again, words of advice:
#Relax and take a good look at your mood. I know you are probably in a bad mood right now so you need someone to lash out at. You probably need to go outside and have some fun, instead of sitting in front of your computer.
TeCoolMage1 votesNo, that simply isn't how the word 'technically' works.
When something is not technical, it can still be considered true due to popular opinion or sound logic behind it.
When something is technically true, it is officially that way, or that is how it works at a fundamental level (this only applies in science or math), regardless of what other people say it is for the sake of convenience or ease of understanding (having two different passive names for gaining life on dealing damage is confusing, but not a factor when dealing with the technical truth).
I understand calling it omnivamp, but it still technically not omnivamp and will never be technically omnivamp unless riot changes it. Think of it as the opposite of, 'for all intents and purposes'
for all intents and purposes, it can be called omnivamp, or spell vamp. But technically it's still omnivore.
proof: hextech gunblade wiki page
V5.22:
Life steal removed. Spell vamp removed. Reload passive removed. New passive: Omnivore: Now heals for 15% of all damage dealt (33% effective for AoE). Combine cost decreased to 550 Gold from 800 Gold.
And while I may not be exactly the happiest person on earth for having you imply that I need to work on my reading comprehension/use it more then hide behind the, "technically I didn't say it and you simply inferred it" excuse, it doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss my arguments as me simply being angry at you, especially since they're valid regardless.
Also your tone sounded extremely sarcastic at first. I can spend a few minutes listing the subtleties behind it if you didn't intend to and want to know why.
The Governer1 votesEither way, I applaud your commitment in insisting everyone to use terms in a politically correct sense, but instead of wasting time correcting and arguing with others on something this minimal maybe you should use your attitude on something more worthwhile and important?
The irony is that you tried to get more and more technical even though you are not exactly the most correct person in this entire debate.
TeCoolMage1 voteswell actually there is more than one exception.
aura damage (3+)
Magic damage on hit (life steal only applies on physical damage from auto attacks, on hit effects don't count as abilities at all for spell vamp.) (3+)
Smite, which is no longer a spell effect, and ignite. (2)
summoned damage (malzahar voidlings) (3+)
reflected damage (2)
I didn't expect to know this by heart but after checking the wiki this is pretty much everything there.
There's over 13 exceptions and they're usually why people get the item anyway, rather than death's dance or simply more HP
Finally, if we're going to get even deeper into semantics (I'd rather not), gunblade can function as a combination of the two, but it might not technically be a combination of the two and riot's doing some crazy spaghetti coding behind the scenes. Anything's possible when this passive is new while life steal and spell vamp are older.
The Governer1 votesYou are correct as in smite no longer applying spell vamp.
The only type of reflected damage that does not contribute to spell vamp is Thornmail. Molten Shield and Defensive Ball Curl are abilities that both reflect damage and apply spell vamp.
As for magic damage on-hit (the term is named "Non-physical Pseudo On-hit Effect" in wiki), magic damage on most of them apply spell vamp (like Twisted Fate's Pick A Card and Ekko's Phase Dive). I can only think of an exception that overrides this: Pix, Faerie Companion. So yes, magic damage on-hit, unless otherwise stated, should apply spell vamp.
I will give you credit on stating aura damage though I am not sure if it is honestly true (since no information is given on this).
Edit: If you are referring to Sunfire Cape when you say "aura damage", Sunfire Cape is NOT an aura, technically speaking, because the damage is stackable on different champions. Sona's Hymm of Valor is the only source of aura damage, and yes you are right on this one: it does not trigger spell effects, including spell vamp.
Håppy2 votesNot only do people not understand his kit, they don't WANT to understand his kit. It's too different. People would rather leave Ivern to his own devices and then harass him when he does poorly.
Iesbian1 votesBeen watching stream the last couple of nights and he's getting pretty decent with Ivern. He's been spamming the champion every time it's open, though, and even then there's still a lot of room to improve with the champion.
Thing is, though, no matter how well he personally performs in his matches, there is a high chance that he is going to lose because his team simply does not know how to play with Ivern and that is a huge factor of winning with the champion.
Also watching him stream you can see just how clueless this community can be. "Don't play Ivern, he's terrible. He does no damage, he does nothing for the team. I should have banned him waaah waaah". Makes me happy that I'm not a jungle player at this time so I don't have to deal with those types of people.
Raoul1 votesI found that he works way better as a lane support than as a jungler. His passive is not totaly wasted since you get free buffs every time your jungler dies the camp next to you and in midgame you are almost always double buffed, And that way the jungler can be a tank or fighter. The main problem with Ivern jungle is that your team ends up with 2 support champions, which really drops the power level.
You can take a look at my match History, I only had a few bad games with him and if you take your time to look at the lost games, you will always find that either top, mid or jungle fed/trolled hard... Most games that were without feeder/troll I won or were really close.
Keepe1 votesOnly one problem.
Your team.
"OH MY GODS, WHY THE FUDGE ARE YOU CHOOSING HIM. CHOOSE A SUPPORT." "He... is a support?" "No, he's not a support champion." "But I mean... literally, his kit is based around suppo-" "HE IS NOT A SUPPORT!"
ltmetal1 votesIvern is already just like release Bard.
notmarked1 votesif anybody fails with ivern they are just morons.
there is 0 way to fail with his kit.
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