ThornMail does not accomplish it's anti-aa function.

its really only meant to put GW on enemies at this point

To be honest, the biggest issue with Thornmail is that there is very little incentive to build into from Bramble Vest.

To compare, Bramble Vest deals 6.5 magic damage per auto-attack with its own passive (not counting other armor items), applies Grievous Wounds for 3 seconds, and provides 35 armor for 1000 gold.

Thornmail deals 33 magic damage per auto-attack with its own passive (again, not counting other armor items), applies Grievous Wounds for the same 3 seconds, and provides 80 armor and 250 Health for 2900 gold. Also the Cold Steel passive that is granted to both Frozen Heart and Randuin's Omen.

So, for almost triple the gold, Thornmail grants a pitance of HP, a little over double the armor, one unique passive that is generally better on two other items (on top of conflicting with the other unique passive), and a second unique passive that still does a pitiful amount of damage by itself even before magic resist is factored in. And to add even more grief in the wound, Bramble Vest has the same exact scaling for the Thorns passive as Thornmail (10% Bonus Armor), meaning you could built Bramble Vest and then build every viable armor item that you could and get a comparable amount of damage reflected as you would upgrading it to Thornmail.

In all honesty, I would actually like to see Thornmail take a different approach to punishing auto-attackers:

Thornmail = Bramble Vest + Haunting Guise

I dont have a knack for actually balancing numbers for new concepts, but the synergy between Thorns and Madness would be more beneficial against auto-attackers than Cold Steel and Thorns.

OG thornmail did the job. 100 armor and reflect damage. easy. if you need a mortal strike then buy another item nerds.

I agree, but I know that you never really think of thornmail as a must buy but focus on Bramble... after that you just build everything else and complete thornmail just as a formality as you still need the GW. It's pretty lame, I agree.

Honestly it needs to be reverted to do a percentage of the damage they deal. Much more effective that way.

Thornmail also isn't meant to make you immortal.

It's fine rn.

its not useless against darius and renekton. it cuts into their sustain.

darius bread and butter combo is auto + w into q into auto. this means he will usually have grievous wounds from thornmail applied that cuts into the heal of his q, as the duration is 3 seconds.

similar with renekton. only, that it deals a decent amount of damage back.

The worst part about this item and its interactions is that 1 update to Kled can do more then purchasing bramble or executioners.

{quoted}

To be honest, the biggest issue with Thornmail is that there is very little incentive to build into from Bramble Vest.

To compare, Bramble Vest deals 6.5 magic damage per auto-attack with its own passive (not counting other armor items), applies Grievous Wounds for 3 seconds, and provides 35 armor for 1000 gold.

Thornmail deals 33 magic damage per auto-attack with its own passive (again, not counting other armor items), applies Grievous Wounds for the same 3 seconds, and provides 80 armor and 250 Health for 2900 gold.

To point it out clearly, as per the item descriptions:

: UNIQUE PASSIVE-Thorns. Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects magic damage equal to 3 plus 10% of your bonus armor, inflicint Grievous Wounds on the attacker for 3 seconds

: UNIQUE PASSIVE-Thorns. Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects magic damage equal to 10% of your bonus armor plus 25, inflicting Grievous Wounds on the attacker for 3 seconds.

So based on the description, yes there really is not much incentive to get Thornmail. No increase in the Grievous Wounds duration (like have it go to 5 seconds). Only difference in the reflected damage is just 22, no increase in the part related to bonus armor (could be 15% bonus armor, 20% might be pushing it). Also it's slightly annoying how the Thorns passive is worded differently in each description.

Thornmail is basically only actually good on Rammus. Otherwise yeah, you kinda only use it against specific matchup as an anti-heal armour item than an anti-AA armour item.

Just look at how much thornmail reflects, it is a gold waste item nothing more.

It's almost like they gave all those champions access to tons of healing and true damage!

Oh.... wait.

Isn't it more of an anti-healing item?

Rarely ever buy it, i only buy it because it's a good combination against Hybrid Auto Attacker's when combined with Adaptive Helm. Otherwise agreed, it doesn't fulfill it's intended purpose and most of those champions have access to True Damage/Healing and let's face it Greivous Wounds was never enough to stop healing in the first place. Early it certainly makes some match ups hard (IE: Poppy, Ornn, Moakai tanks with high Base Damage are a pain when they get this item first but it sucks once a bruiser get's Black Clever, Trinity Force or Shojin.)

The premise of this post is wrong.

The item isn't anti-AA. It's anti-healing.

since they have things that are reducing healing to 60% now (Kat and kled) why not make the updated version 60% healing reduction as well? kled can almost keep his 60% on a target already, and it would give an incentive to upgrade the bramble vest.

Honestly they should revert it to what it used to be. Make the recipe Warden's and bramble vest, make it give 100 armor and make it reflect 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage, just like it used to be.

should be the one that cuts healing off, since no top one except ealry builds crits (as if could stop a yasuo) , meaning that item already has a late-game bias.

You forgot exists

As an adc, when someone builds randuins and tabis against me, it makes a hugeeee diff. My autos might tickle a bit at most.

probably needs to be buffed up to -30% crit damage, or more, considering how much crit focus there is right now. Another thing that can be done is take grevious wounds off of thornmail and give it some more raw stats to help tanks out. A similar problem is both items have cold steel, but if we want to be honest -15% AS for one second isn't a big deal. Maybe it needs to reduce crit chance by 15% as well. Make the effect an anti-zeal item.

I think its a combination of those champions being overloaded, as well as the Item being on the weak side.

- Easily 50% of his Damage is Magic(More if its just small skirmishes), making the Armor useless. On top of his High Base Stats, and MR/AR from Ult. Gaining ALOT of AS from Innate Passive, counter acting the AS Debuff.

- Ult allows him to completely ignore the AS Debuff, and E is dealing large amounts of true damage, making the Armor again usless.

- Has 100% crit (Or very close to it) by the time you finish , increasing his DPS by 125% while your only reducing it by 20-30%. Also Q only counts as an AA (in regards to ) IF you are the first target hit.

- During W he attacks at a constant rate, ignoring the AS Debuff. Innate deals % Max HP Damage, so as you get beefier he deals more to you. And will be finished shortly after your . Essentially giving you a net negative in Armor during duels.

- Gains AS from Innate Passive, counter acting the AS Debuff. Innate Passive ALSO deals good Magic Damage, by passing the Armor you just bought, as well as does her E and Ult, which is a good chunk of her burst. Once she has , she is dealing damage to you by Q'ing around on minions while not receiving any back from .

- is an over all good counter vs him, I have never had issues with a as a Tank with . Unless he has gotten fed, but then hes a carry that got fed....so yea..

Buffing , or changing it to better fit a nitch would be nice, but honestly changing some of the above champions would be a healthier start for the game.

I just miss the old thornmail , that + frozen heart , randuin and tabi on Malphite would had make any ADC and Yasuo players to crap their pants. 2009-2017 rip

It's not meant as an anti-AA item. It's meant as an anti-lifesteal item.

You want anti-AA? exists with 100 armor and a 15% cripple. That is an anti-AA item.

Riot changed Thornmail to be anti-lifesteal years ago.

Just make the return damage be 5%(+1% per 100 armor) of all physical damage returned as true damage.

is the best anti auto item is just as almost as anti-lifesteal as thornmail together negate more healing from strikes against you than the thornmail upgraded. So even if its no longer an anti auto item, its not even an anti lifesteal item, heck why auto the tank to heal when i can walk around them and auto the minions? Thornmail just doesn't do its job at all. If thornmail was an anti auto item, it could inflict a bleed against enemies that did damage based on how far they walked after they autoed this would prevent the chase downs against tanks that occur from autoers. If thornmail was an anti lifesteal item it would need to inflict grievous wounds at a higher value than bramble vest. It doesn't really serve its purpose tbh. Bramble and ninja tabi are just overall stronger than thornmail for less gold.

used to do % damage reflect BEFORE armor reduction. Making it perfect counter to any basic attack user who focused it. Now it deals damage/hit based on armor. And not even great one.

Heavy hitters ignore it, because their lifesteal/attack is greater, and they hit slowly.

Many hitters might feel it, but unless you got at least twice armor of their AD they can still lifesteal it back.

Another problem is the fact, that armor in general has very little use. It doesn't matter if you got 300, or 3000. Above a certain number it gives nearly nothing. If goal is to survive, then much better to buy items with armor+health, and stuff that reduce enemy damage in some way.