That moment when you notice that Noc ulti has a 3min cooldown

Beats29·Mar 1, 2015·164 votes·7,795 views

That's a bit too much no?

edit: woah I wasn't really expecting the thread to explode like this, ty a lot

122 Comments

TalamareMar 1, 201546 votes

Garen Karthus Shen

Beats29Mar 1, 201516 votes

I know those have high cds as well but they are diferent champions, no use to compare. I actually agree Garen and Shen should also have lower cds, specially Shen due to use of TP, but on Karthus I think it's fine. It's a global ultimate with little counterplay, specially if you don't have heal or a shield.

Ancestor007Mar 1, 20152 votes

Hm hm... item 3157 Anivia Elise Fiora Fizz Kayle Lissandra MasterYi Zilean Zac and i didnt count shields and heals. And please dont speak louf. I played some games with Karthus and i gad fun. I wouldnt want him to be "compensated".

BallisticMouseMar 1, 201510 votes

He just said he thinks Karthus is fine where he is and then you try to argue why he shouldn't be changed? You're arguing in agreeance with him.

VardenSaladMar 1, 20155 votes

Yeah; heavily misplayed by Ancestro007 there.

SolaxoMar 1, 20154 votes

Karthus is fine, I usually have his ult when needed

StephenizgodMar 1, 201519 votes

Garen's Ult just needs to be reworked, as far as executes (specially ult ones) its pretty weak. Rivens scales, can hit multiple people, and is ranged (not mentioning the AD bonuses it gives).

Karthus' Ult that kind of makes sense but i think they could slightly up its damage early game at least.

Shen's Ult needs its CD reduced too.

Ancestor007Mar 1, 20151 votes

Listen to this guy, Riot! Usually Karthus rushes tear and catalist so in the first 12 minutes he has no damage

xLegendary TrollMar 1, 20155 votes

Or you can be intelligent and not rush catalyst and instead rush blasting ward for the level 6 ult damage.

The Cheese DeityMar 2, 20151 votes

"Intelligent" - "Rush blasting wand on Karthus" Way to contradict yourself

xLegendary TrollMar 2, 20151 votes

Why on earth would you rush catalyst on a champion that gets mana after killing a unit? That's why everyone is bad on Karthus lol. Rushing sustain just makes you a punching bag. Blasting wand gives Karthus a huge mini power spike on his first back, especially to his ult. You want to maximize the damage of your ultimate as quickly as possible to help bot lane and keep the pressure off you from mid.

Yandere CarryMar 2, 20151 votes

because the sustain catalyst gives and he gets RoA to be beefier since he is squishie and has to be in the middle of the teamfight. Also, Karthus needs fucktons of mana to use his E (basically anivias ult on a toggle)

Helios AtomMar 2, 20151 votes

Both catalyst and blasting wand both build into RoA, so going with one over the other doesn't impede him from reaching it at all, and I highly doubt he's going to need a catalyst first back to survive teamfights. The entire point of going with a blasting wand is for more early global pressure.

The only instance when you would need catalyst first is when your lane opponent can out push you well enough to force your E, and most champs can't to that before first back. Other than in those cases, blasting wand is a better choice early.

ChaoticPineconeMar 2, 20152 votes

the added beef + the sustain per level is actually pretty noticeable on a squishy champion that generally wants to farm.

but tear + catalyst is stupid most of the time. go RoA into zhyonias/deathcap or, if youre confident, tear into rylais. or tear into zhyonias/deathcap if youre super confident. tear + catalyst is hoping that nothing happens for the first 30 minutes of the game, since you dont get the damage until the RoA is fully stacked and you get the staff/seraphs.

ArithianFlameMar 1, 201539 votes

{quoted}

Garen's Ult just needs to be reworked, as far as executes (specially ult ones) its pretty weak. Rivens scales, can hit multiple people, and is ranged (not mentioning the AD bonuses it gives).

Karthus' Ult that kind of makes sense but i think they could slightly up its damage early game at least.

Shen's Ult needs its CD reduced too.

SILENCE YOU FOOL. Garens perfectly fine, Riot. No need for any "compensation" or "rebalancing." Nothing to see here.

KING OF MASKSMar 1, 20155 votes

Agreed, as someone who plays Garen rather frequently his ult is just fine as it is.

StephenizgodMar 1, 20153 votes

uuuuh yeah i was just kidding haha Garen's ult dont need no work, it doesnt offer any advantage over Lee Sin thats for sure

agbudarMar 2, 20152 votes

the thing about garen is that a lot of his power is not his ult but everything else in his kit. nothing goes wasted with him his passive is good his Q/W/E would all be overpowered if put on a different champion.

(imagine xin with that spin)

Yandere CarryMar 2, 20151 votes

Garen's ult does deceptively more than you'd think.

StephenizgodMar 2, 20153 votes

Yea but its also pretty weak compared to other executes specially because of the CD.

SEKAIMar 1, 201528 votes

And the range is pretty bad too, for the cd that is (I get it has the darkening effect but really it doesn't really do all that much except disorienting the enemy team a little bit).

At least lower cd for shorter range, or long cd for global. Not long cd for shot range that's no good.

Beats29Mar 1, 20152 votes

The ultimate is doing the opposite, on later level it's 100 sec. It's an huge difference lol. I somewhat understand Riot having it high due being a point click ability and taking off the vision, but 180sec is still too high.

AbsoluteSadmanMar 4, 20151 votes

Noc is my fave guy and i gotta say, having 3 minutes on my only ganking tool is just absurd.

DyonasMar 1, 201515 votes

It used to be a lot more than it is currently. A brief look through the patch history shows that it was Season 1 (!) where it was reduced quite a bit.

"Dash range reduced to 2000/2750/3500 from 2500/3250/4000." The range still increases by 1500 at max rank but it's 500 shorter than it used to be at each rank yet they kept the cooldown at a ridiculous length. Considering Rek'Sai now has a fully global ult based on tunnels I really do think it's time Noc had some quality of life buffs to his ult.

doublelift fgMar 1, 20152 votes

used to deal 450 dmg instead of 300 poor noc his ulti has been nerfed so hard.

the cd nerf was because it was "global" meanwhile tell me who use it for the 4 sec useless vision

DyonasMar 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPookmvX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-01T17:40:32.286+0000)

used to deal 450 dmg instead of 300 poor noc his ulti has been nerfed so hard.

the cd nerf was because it was "global" meanwhile tell me who use it for the 4 sec useless vision

Those ranges I listed are from Season 1. I see nothing earlier about it being global in the patch history so I'm taking it at those values. 4000 is less than Sion's ult which is not quite half a map in full distance. Rek'Sai has no limits and can reposition far more easily and more often with a much stronger kit. Riot seem intent on nerfing champions into uselessness then bringing in even stronger champions later anyway.

EedatMar 1, 201510 votes

There is zero point to comparing balance changes from season 1 to current day

NarasimhaMar 1, 20153 votes

While I'm fully behind Noc buffs (mained him back in S2), I think the Rek'sai comparison is a bad one. Rek'sai's is literally just a global travel. It gets you from point A, to point B, and nothing more. Well, other than the passive AS, but thats not really the focus. With Noc, you're still getting a huge dash, along with the damage, and perhaps most importantly, the darkness which can throw the enemy team off. Noc's ultimate brings a LOT more than even other global ultimate champions.

Axel NightroadMar 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It used to be a lot more than it is currently. A brief look through the patch history shows that it was Season 1 (!) where it was reduced quite a bit.

"Dash range reduced to 2000/2750/3500 from 2500/3250/4000." The range still increases by 1500 at max rank but it's 500 shorter than it used to be at each rank yet they kept the cooldown at a ridiculous length. Considering Rek'Sai now has a fully global ult based on tunnels I really do think it's time Noc had some quality of life buffs to his ult.

I don't think you know what a quality of life buff is.

DyonasMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you know what a quality of life buff is.

Something intended to give a struggling champion a hand without making them stupidly overpowered. Nocturne is, arguably, struggling this season and relies a lot on his ult to engage due to his other abilities being more based around attacking after the engage. I think a quality of life buff would be either a slight range increase or a slight ult cooldown. There were plans to reduce cooldown based on if he launched to a target or not but I don't know what happened to that.

NarasimhaMar 2, 20155 votes

No, that is a buff, plain and simple. A QoL buff is something VERY minor, like letting Kha know which targets are isolated.

MessaigaMar 1, 201510 votes

It's a rather powerful Ultimate, I did like the change they had on PBE at some point during S4 where the cooldown was reduced if he didn't dash. Would have been great for ganks since you could deny them any vision from wards. It never got pushed to live servers though, they never really told us why either.

ArveanorMar 1, 20152 votes

It's not quite as powerful at rank 1 :(

MessaigaMar 1, 20152 votes

True, and I do believe Nocturne need buffs. Many assassins struggle in the jungle right now much like tanks (though tanks are getting their problems fixed in 5.5). Eve, Nocturne, and Kha could all use some love (Rengar needs stealth removed before buffs go to him).

ArveanorMar 1, 20153 votes

whaaaat? Rengar = his ult. that's just how it is. What would they even give him in exchange for stealth?

Eve is a bigger joke than urgot, and kha... I have strong feelings about how frequently he gets stepped on for daring to be nearly as strong as other assassins.

MessaigaMar 1, 20152 votes

Easy. Rengar's Ult could gain a really huge speed boost in replacement of stealth. As a hunter he should be one of THE best champions at chasing down whatever prey he lays his eye on. His stealth is inherently toxic which is why he gets nerfed whenever he is competitive (or strong in ranked).

ArveanorMar 1, 20151 votes

idk, whenver I go hunting I don't move very fast, but I suppose turning rengar into a second caitlyn would be boring.

and he has been fairly commpetitive / unnerfed for a good while now..

MessaigaMar 1, 20151 votes

How would Cait =/= Rengar if he is great at chasing? Cait finishes targets w/ Ult. Rengar hunts them down and kills them outright, giving him a huge speed boost would only further the feeling of hunting down prey. He would still have that vision around him, Unseen Predator on next AA, and the ferocity generation too. Cooldown would probably also go down (thinking 100/90/80 seconds).

edit: About you saying when you hunt you don't move very fast, keep in mind you have a gun and don't have to get up-close and personal with said animal (until it is dead, of course).

ArveanorMar 1, 20155 votes

It... it was a joke. That is how Rengar would become a second Cait. By hunting with a .308 with a high power scope attached to it. Maybe I shouldn't attempt humor.

And yeah, I can see what you mean about using just a speed boost and an unseen predator proc to engage but I think that might necessitate either a buff to the resists from w or some other way to get back out, since he will be taking a lot more hits trying to bypass the frontline with this style of attack, and will give the enemy a better chance to react and peel for their carries, making rengar a lot riskier.

edit: oh and to be fair, cat's are some of the laziest creatures on god's green earth, and they would much rather make one quick pounce for the kill than actually chase something down like some kinda undignified hound. C'mon man, gotta go for the cat-like style points!

DerptionaryMar 2, 20153 votes

When they were doing Rengar's remake Riot tried to remove stealth and give him something along these lines. They stated that he would get a huge movespeed boost that could literally get him from the dragon pit to the top lane river bush in its duration along with making his other abilities stronger, but people threw a big fit and demanded that they keep the stealth in so now we have the Rengar that we do.

DanofDemaciaMar 1, 20151 votes

Can people shutup about noc and his ult. His ult is literally free take out the apc or adc its fine.

19 19 19Mar 1, 201519 votes

{quoted}

Can people shutup about noc and his ult. His ult is literally free take out the apc or adc its fine.

-Nocturne ults ADC-

ADC dashes away - (since the majority of ADC's are able to dash away )

"Outplayed"

DragonflightMar 1, 20151 votes

Nah that's not how it goes down. Nocturne ults them and then his red plus q trail consistently keeps them in auto attack range while the fear eventually makes them useless for a small period

revliledpembrokeMar 2, 20157 votes

Kalista disagrees. As does Ezreal , Corki , Lucian , Graves , Vayne or any other ADC with a dash and flash. For that matter, Ashe and Varus can ult him and then flash away. Jinx has her slow and her chompers.

19 19 19Mar 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

disagrees. As does , , , , or any other ADC with a dash and flash. For that matter, and can ult him and then flash away. has her slow and her chompers.

Um, none of them need to flash, all they need to do is click a dash skill (or if they dont have one they just slow him) and walk away safely guaranteed (:

revliledpembrokeMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nah that's not how it goes down. Nocturne ults them and then his red plus q trail consistently keeps them in auto attack range while the fear eventually makes them useless for a small period

I was just referring to this comment and saying that even if Noc does get to them and manages to stay close, they still have yet another means of escape after the ult/dash is used

DragonflightMar 3, 20152 votes

Why isn't Nocturne allowed to have flash up in your scenarios?

revliledpembrokeMar 3, 20151 votes

If he did, it still wouldn't matter to the adc's with dashes("oh, Noc, you ulted me and then You flashed for me? Lol." So the dash/flash, whatever is off cooldown next.) MF could have her passive back up and just sway away, and if Ashe/Varus ultes and then flashed, they could probably still get safely away.

DragonflightMar 3, 20151 votes

Nocturne will stick because of his Fear, Red, and or Q Trail. You claim dashes are too strong for Nocturne, but even those aren't sufficient for ADC's to escape him, least of all Jinx/MF who definitely have no where to go. It takes 5 seconds for MF to get her passive up. That means she would have to run from Nocturne with a trail...trailing her for 5 full seconds to have a chance at getting away. I'd say there's good validity in that they are running towards a team which means if he doesn't make safe picks he'll be blown up, but between his homing gap closer, movement speed q trail, and redbuff I think he has strong stick even against the peskier dashes ADC's possess (Kalista not withstanding.)

AbsoluteSadmanMar 4, 20151 votes

Noc was the first champ i bought and ive been playing him ever since. any sort of ms boost/dash beats him. even if he flashes 9 times our of ten they just flash too.