Boards›Gameplay

Riot, can you please explain the reasons on why you nerfed Sona again on PBE?

Beats29··47 votes·5,887 views

1st of all, I'm not a Sona main. I simply like her theme and playstyle (and I was extremely displeased about her rework but that's a different thing) and all I can see is her being nerfed from patch to patch. Last PBE patch, another nerf on her passive. Can you explain why?

No other champion is squishier than her, she doesnt have hard CC besides her ult, no instant gap closer which makes a good prey for assassins, other supports excel on what she does... just why you keep nerfing her?

You want good engage? Go Thresh or Leona. You want good disengage? Go Janna or Karma. You want tankyness? Go Alistar. You want sustain? Go Soraka.

There's always a champion who excels on something, while she doesn't. This was my fear about her rework. The rework did nothing. Playstyle was never her problem. You simply keep guting her numbers over and over. Fearless simply completly ignored us when reworking her and guess what, she's returning to her old state pre-rework. People will ignore her because other champions are simply better.

Yes I don't agree with the nerfs, but can you at least explain them to at least try to accept them? Because I simply don't see a reason. Her cons are much higher than her pros.

You simply want to enforce meta and not want to have a support dealing damage, and that will always create champion inbalance.

107 Comments

A Wild AP Sona24 votes

anyone who thinks sona is OP is garbage at this game

she is underpowered as fuck and dies in 1-2 hits from any champion

just flash and hit her

~ person with 2000 games of sona experience that knows more than you all put together

Dominick Destine16 votes

Obviously they hate breasts!

Mindspeaker14 votes

just look at jinx for proof

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

This confirms it, Fearless is a lolicon.

http://forum.lol.garena.tw/attachment.php?attachmentid=10872&d=1375148094

Chaotic Reks4 votes

just look what they did with the Morgana retexture

Alorasence16 votes

Seriously.....I don't get it.

Janna, Morgana, Thresh go untouched.....

So they hit Sona. Sona.

Whatever.....

You can just tell we're not in season, and without pro play to set an example, Riot has no idea what is strong.

Xonra8 votes

{quoted}

Riot has no idea what is strong.

I think this is honestly the long and short of it.

Riot relies WAY too much on the pros and the LCS (other leagues too of course but just the main example) To tell them what is strong.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

If that were true, why is Lee Sin never touched? Why does Sona get nerfed after losing every game played at worlds?

There is some validity to what you're saying, but at the same time, Riot are the ones telling those pros who to say is strong. Indirectly as far as we know, by intentionally making certain a select few champions have loaded kits in their favor no matter what, which other champions can never overcome for a time longer than just being FotM.

LeeSin Thresh

There is still the possibility that Riot may also be secretly paying some pros to behave or speak in a certain way. I wouldn't put it past them that every game Sona saw play in since the "rework," there was a Rito employee standing directly behind them with a wad of cash. Only to be handed to the player when she's picked in champ select. It's difficult for me to believe a single one of those pros actually thought she was playable, but it would make sense if champ select were rigged.

2pudge1cup13 votes

This is the result of the folly that is riot thinking winrates = balance

A monkey can look at a winrate chart and see what the highest picks are. Actual game balance takes understanding the why behind it, and typically it's attributable to factors outside the champ itself (which synergistic allies are highly contested picks or enemies that it's strong against for example).

I always cringe when I see winrate arguments because they are completely devoid of any actual substance.

Pika3102 votes

I always cringe when I see winrate arguments because they are completely devoid of any actual substance.

Yet it's the only argument the Sona haters can use and they cling to it despite how many times they're soundly disproved. So that says a lot about them and their thought-processes, or inherent lack-thereof. They can't use math, pro play, her base numbers, logic or comparisons to form anything resembling a sound point, all of these work against them no matter how hard they try to spin doctor it.

FalconPawwwwnch11 votes

Are you trolling

She's insanely overpowered right now lol

Ask anybody in a decent elo

Ratbert11 votes

So insanely overpowered that nami does what she does but safer. In fact she's so op that anyone with decent engage and hard cc absolutely facestomps her now that her level 1 poke has gone to shit. Her laning is but a shell of what it was, and is only good for "clutch" healing, ult and burst of speed in a 350 range radius.

Hetchy9 votes

{quoted}

nami does what she does but safer.

No. Just no.

Hetchy10 votes

Because she's way too much of a lane bully to justify her sustain and utility? Squishiness has nothing to do with it.

And that winrate...

Dominick Destine16 votes

{quoted} Because she's way too much of a lane bully to justify her sustain and utility? Squishiness has nothing to do with it.

Squishiness of her breasts?! No but seriously, her incredibly low defensive stats are what justified her old 250 damage Q... it was nerfed to 200 and had the AP ratio shredded. Is that really necessary? she is already one of the most frail characters in the game with no defensive mechanism aside from her ult.

If she gets W, Q'd by Alistar, she's gone. This was her balancing counterpoint to her solid harass... but even that is being taken away, gg Riot.

A Wild AP Sona10 votes

Death Sentence RANGE: 1100 instant death/burn flash

Rocket Grab RANGE: 925 instant death/burn flash

Dark Binding RANGE: 1175 instant death/burn flash

Grasping Roots RANGE: 1100 instant death/burn flash

Aqua Prison RANGE: 875 instant death/burn flash

Zenith Blade RANGE: 875 instant death/burn flash

Solar Flare RANGE: 1200 instant death/burn flash

Sona AA RANGE: 550

Sona: Q RANGE: 700

hmm so basically if sona wants to poke with aa she faces the possibility of having to burn flash/die every single time she decides to poke with aa and the only semi safe poke is her q which does barely any damage now after repeated nerfs

oh and going to leave this part of namis kit here its called "sona will never be able to outpoke me as long as im higher than b5 elo" but for some reason its showing up as ebb and flow on my client

Ebb and Flow RANGE: 725 COST: 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130 mana COOLDOWN: 10

Active: Nami unleashes a stream of water that bounces between allied and enemy champions. This ability can only bounce to each target once and hits up to 3 targets. The damage and heal are modified by -15% (+ 7.5% per 100 AP) with each bounce.

Heal: 65 / 95 / 125 / 155 / 185 (+ 30% AP) (2x sonas healing)

Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 50% AP) (2x sonas damage)

so lets nerf the champion that heals for way less and pokes for way less than namis ebb and flow at a shorter range of 700

dat logic

FantasySniper1 votes

so basically if sona wants to poke with aa she faces the possibility of having to burn flash/die every single time she decides to poke with aa

AA while theirs is on animation. So long as you get more in than you take, you're being successful. Late-game, it's harder to pull off, but it happens anyways.

And about the Nami argument, Sona has a shield and a superior speed buff. She also doesn't need to be in range as long, which makes her poke easier to pull off, especially later on.

Pika3104 votes

AA while theirs is on animation. So long as you get more in than you take, you're being successful.

The problem being, Sona has the lowest damage amongst the entire support class. Unless they blatantly miss every spell, Sona will always take more damage than she can do, assuming every one of their spells is a skillshot. Against champions with point and click damage like Nami, this just isn't even possible...

And about the Nami argument, Sona has a shield and a superior speed buff.

A 0-second duration, melee-range shield does NOT make up for the fact that Nami blatantly heals more than double what Sona does.

Sona's speed buff is roughly equivalent to Nami's, but Nami has hers on all of her abilities at much higher range.

FantasySniper1 votes

You're supposed do what most mid-level players do and attack while the enemy has used their AA animation on a minion. Only Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, or Tristana have the range to be able to retaliate in time without risking themselves, and you have that nifty [W] to block the attack or [E] to dodge skillshots and ensure you get away. Sona does not have the lowest damage in the entire support class. The lack of risk in her poke, being multi-targeted and potentially from multiple sources, makes her damage consistent and easily applied, so she can out-poke enemies through pure safety. I can tell you as a Zyra player that Sona doesn't have to work one bit for her damage while Zyra has several mechanics required behind applying hers, all of them limiting her output in most cases.

It's not 0, it's 1.5. Plenty of time to react to most any projectile or incoming enemy. It also applies to everyone on your team, with the heal ensured to affect both you and another teammate without even having to try. Nami healing more than twice is a gross exaggeration. Assuming you healed your primary target first, you still have to be within range to the enemy and then you only get a reduced total (unless you have 200 AP, an unrealistic requirement for most - if not all - of the game), not including what damage you would've taken during this entire time spent within obvious range of the enemy. You also fail to include health preservation by Sona's shield. Two people get the heal, and there are no restrictions on how many get the shield, lessening the impact of damage for all teammates while Nami can only safeguard the health pools of one or two at a time without using another cooldown.

Sona speeds herself up way more than Nami can and the speed buff can be granted to your entire team with ease. It also happens to scale better, and that's at the minimum 325 movement speed, so by mid-game it's ensured that Sona will make her team faster than Nami ever could.

Pika3104 votes

Nami healing more than twice is a gross exaggeration.

Sona base heal: 30 HP (thirty) Nami base heal: 65 HP (sixty-five)

( 30 x 2 ) < 65

Your whole post is blatant false propaganda. With one part proven to be an absolute lie, the validity of the rest falls heavily into question.

FantasySniper1 votes

You're purposely excluding the missing health bonus, effectiveness towards two teammates, and are cherry-picking the first rank. To say that Nami's healing is more is acceptable, but more than twice? That's why I say it's a gross exaggeration, your desire to hate on Sona makes your argument weak.

You aren't even going to try and disprove the rest of my argument? What a shame, it must be because you cannot.

Emmy Cha0s5 votes

You aren't even going to try and disprove the rest of my argument? What a shame, it must be because you cannot.

He doesn't have to waste his time. If one part of your propaganda has been proven a blatant lie, logic dictates there is an extremely high probability the rest of your words are lies as well. Your credibility is already destroyed.

FantasySniper2 votes

Because test scores with even one question wrong are an immediate fail? Horrible logic to assume the rest of the data is as predicted before properly observing it. Especially since it's right there.

I wasn't even proved wrong, it still isn't more than twice.

Emmy Cha0s4 votes

You're a waste of oxygen and I'm just wasting internet space by responding to your trolling.

You think stating non-sequiturs somehow negates the fact you were mathematically disproven. Worse, you arrogantly believe that just denying you've lost somehow proves you haven't.

I pray these forums finally get a mod that knows how to do their job.

FantasySniper2 votes

Wonderful, now you're resorting to insulting again. Maybe now you'll finally get forum-banned for explicitly claiming others to be trolls, because, you (should) know, that is against the rules.

I was not mathematically disproven, it left out several factors and variables.

Sona: 30•(1+Missing Health Percentage•0.005) multiplied by 2 Nami: 65 multiplied by 1.85

Any health missing at all: Sona's healing ≥ Nami's healing in half If there isn't health missing, there's no point in the heal.

3TWarrior4 votes

by your own formula, Sona's healing is outdone by over 30, which is 2.xxx times the initial amount total

to put it simply...that amount was calculated using a target missing 99% of their health, in other words, it is not possible to break even at all with Nami's healing

HowPlayGAEM9 votes

Sona's unavoidable Q poke combined with Q chord hits too hard during laning.

The problem is that if Sona CAN'T do that, she's worthless aside from her ult. This was proven when her Q was unintentionally nerfed to 550 range, and her pickrate dropped to like 2-3% or something; without her Q she can't do shit and she's completely unfun to play as.

A successful Blitz/Leona/Thresh connect is either a guaranteed kill or 80% health chunk. Meanwhile Sona is considered oppressive. Ok.

The rework sucks ass, it did absolutely nothing for Sona or Sona players.

Pika31011 votes

Sona's unavoidable Q poke combined with Q chord hits too hard during laning.

As opposed to Nami's unavoidable W that does more damage, has 25-units more range and can heal for more than Aria simultaneously? If Nami takes the same risk Sona does, she gets in twice as much damage, but with greater safety. Nami has lower risk than Sona and gives greater reward.

This was proven when her Q was unintentionally nerfed to 550 range,

Myself and most Sona players believe the Q range nerfs were secretly intentional. Considering Fearless denied the existence of the initial -50 for 2 months and then another "bug" just happens to appear nerfing it another -100 units? Such a specific pair of bugs can't be coincidence. If they are, it proves Riot is beyond unqualified at code-writing.

HowPlayGAEM10 votes

Myself and most Sona players believe the Q range nerfs were secretly intentional.

There's no doubt that it was intentional; anybody who played Sona more than a few games could immediately tell the Q range was much shorter after the garbage rework.

If it WASN'T intentional, then that means whoever played and playtested Sona didn't play her before the rework. In that case they had no fucking business leading a rework on the champ.

3TWarrior4 votes

of course, that's considering riot even took feedback back then...as it is now, the stealth nerfs are slipping in on many champions

gangplank, for instance...his Q poke used to be much more efficient for farming minions...now it needs a decent amount of time into the game to get the optimal gold benefit for time

Leaf of the lake9 votes

This nerf makes almost no sense when the closest thing to an identity she has atm is being a poke support. Riot is always talking about buffing strengths and accentuating weaknesses, but all I see here is nerfing the main reason you would even pick her.

Pika3108 votes

Every nerf to Sona is a direct buff to Nami. They are the same champion, more so now that Fearless removed Sona's auras. That's what Riot truly cares about, buffing their fishy fetish.

A Rusty Venture8 votes

Why nerf Sona when Soraka is running rampant??

A Wild AP Sona6 votes

bump

A Wild AP Sona6 votes

bump

Seviang5 votes

She's a really oppressive lane bully in the early game. Unless you have a hard engage (like a Leona), she can poke you out of lane pretty easily.

Pika3104 votes

I fail to see how 1 ability that can only safely do 40 dmg and has to get into insta-gib range for just another 20 dmg, can be called "oppressive." Especially in the faces of champions like Nami that can do 70 dmg from longer range and heal simultaneously or donate 75 dmg and 3 seconds of slow to herself or a safe ADC. I haven't even mentioned the bubble. Nami doesn't even need it against Sona, she completely outlanes her with just W.

Seviang1 votes

Do you play Sona? Her q scales really strongly with AP, needing only a little bit for her powerchord damage to be very nice. Her range does make positioning very important, but it's still easy enough to lay down a ton of poke in lane.

EDIT: Here's some math for you. If you take AP quints and spellthief (so 20 AP to start off with), one q +powerchord aa is going to deal (40 + 12) = 52 damage from her q, then 50 + (13 + 5)*1.5 + (40+5) = 122 damage from powerchord aa (that's the damage from her aa plus the powerchord bonus and the q passive bonus). So at lvl 1, she can walk into lane and deal 174 damage to the adc, more if she has mpen reds (I always run these on Sona). That's about 1/3 of most ad carries' health bars, which is pretty oppressive.

Even without the powerchord bonus, a simple q + aa is 52 + 50 + 45 = 147 damage. That's just at lvl 1. She can massively outtrade people if you're good with your positioning.

Pika3105 votes

You just told me math I already have posted in a thread I already created alongside every support in the game. That number is only higher than Braum's, every support in the game does more damage than Sona at minimum.

An average Lucian has 554 base HP, +36 and 3% from masteries and 8MR from runes.

That's: 1.03 ( 554 + 36 ) ( 30 + 8 - 7.83 ) = an effective HP of 791.0431

791.0431 / 174 = 4.5462

Thus, Sona does less than a quarter of Lucian's HP with her FULL combo. I didn't even bother using the damage reductions from Block and Unyielding. Mathematician's worldwide would appreciate it if players would stop propagandizing Sona's damage as "half an ADC's HP," whence it's been mathematically proven that she factually does less than one quarter. Less than half of what people are lying about.

I can keep going, as a math major I enjoy doing this.

Seviang1 votes

{quoted}

You just told me math I already have posted in a thread I already created alongside every support in the game. That number is only higher than Braum's, every support in the game does more damage than Sona at minimum.

An average Lucian has 554 base HP, +36 and 3% from masteries and 8MR from runes.

That's: 1.03 ( 554 + 36 ) ( 30 + 8 - 7.83 ) = an effective HP of 791.0431

791.0431 / 174 = 4.5462

Thus, Sona does less than a quarter of Lucian's HP with her FULL combo.

I can keep going, as a math major I enjoy doing this.

Yes but this is for an ability that costs 45 mana, I don't know the numbers for the other supports (link to your thread?) but that's pretty great mana efficiency that few supports can match.

Pika3104 votes

Whatever the efficiency on Hymn may be is completely overshadowed by its extremely low damage and the exorbitant cost of Aria. Her long cooldowns give the enemy ADC ample time to heal back up the negligible harass with Doran's Blade+runes and masteries and requires even longer amounts of time for herself to heal up.

Indeed, very few supports can match the insanely high cost of Aria and it's a good thing too. Eighty mana is absurdly outrageous.

Here would be the link to my support comparison thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AUHkJgo5-the-support-class-a-side-by-side-comparison

A Wild AP Sona5 votes

bump

BastionKross5 votes

"Sona doesn't make flashy #LCSBigPlays, therefore we're going to nerf her until you guys stop playing her. Please play Thresh or Leona instead.

-Rito Games"

Pika3104 votes

#BetterNerfSona

A Wild AP Sona5 votes

bump

A Wild AP Sona5 votes

bump

A Wild AP Sona5 votes

bump

A Wild AP Sona5 votes

bump

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Beats29

That moment when you notice that Noc ulti has a 3min cooldown
Gameplay122 comments
164
votes
How about giving enchantments to Sightstone like Smite has? At least make it worth upgrading
Gameplay88 comments
94
votes
In my opinion this is the worst patch Riot ever released since patch 4.2
Gameplay136 comments
83
votes
Since Sona got nerfed again, I ask Riot 1 more time, can you please at least say the reasons for it?
Gameplay36 comments
57
votes
Kalista is banned on 34.98% of the games. The 2nd most banned adc is Graves with 4,56%
Gameplay103 comments
57
votes
Sejuani has 55.06% winrate with 75.77% ban rate, while Amumu has 54.53% win rate with 0.63% ban rate
Gameplay116 comments
53
votes