Kalista is banned on 34.98% of the games. The 2nd most banned adc is Graves with 4,56%

Beats29·Mar 13, 2015·57 votes·6,162 views

1st of all, adcs already usually aren't banned that often on solo-queue, unlike laners. Finally, this is a 30% difference between the 1st and 2nd most banned. Isn't this enough for Riot to realize she has problems.

And keep in mind that I'm not stating she is stupidly OP, simply she is broken and her kit is problematic. Mainly due to her passive.

Kalista suffers from Yasuo effect, she can't be on an healthy and strong place with this passive. Yasuo's lane phase is ridiculously hard now due to his passive. He can't be buffed or he would be extremely strong. But the scalling remains.

103 Comments

JamareeMar 13, 201527 votes

To be fair, MF's ban rate was that high at one time, as was Caitlyn's, and Ezreals, and Vayne, hell, even Ashe was the most banned champion in the game at one point, not that you are wrong persay, just saying is all.

LevyathynMar 13, 20159 votes

Lucian went through it recently.

JamareeMar 13, 20155 votes

Him too, pretty much every ADC except for Varus had that time when they were the most picked and banned.

goldensilver09Mar 13, 20156 votes

¿Quinn was banned?

JamareeMar 13, 201513 votes

She doesn't count, she isn't an ADC no matter what anyone says. She is a top laner that is marked as an ADC.

PartholonianMar 13, 20154 votes

She has ranged autos, an AS steroid, bonus autoattack damage on her passive, and what would be a disengage tool if it wasn't so damn buggy. The only thing about her that doesn't clearly say ADC is her ult.

Some people like to take some ADCs top, but that doesn't make them not ADCs. The only thing that makes Teemo not an ADC right now is his poor crit scaling in the current mandatory crit meta (and like Quinn he has a non-ADCish ult), but Quinn can crit just fine.

JamareeMar 13, 201510 votes

Because with a range of 500 on top of an ulti that works better at dueling one vs one then teamfighting, she is a bad ADC make.

junglerboy16Mar 13, 20153 votes

Her range is 525, but that doesn't matter when her ult makes her melee range anyway.

NarasimhaMar 13, 20155 votes

Question, do you consider Urgot an ADC or a ranged bruiser? Your answer here is vital to determining your understanding.

Teemo not an ADC right now is his poor crit scaling in the current mandatory crit meta (and like Quinn he has a non-ADCish ult), but Quinn can crit just fine.

Also, what the hell? If Teemo wants to build crit, he can build crit. Its not like he has a random modifier that reduces his crit chance or damage.

PartholonianMar 15, 20151 votes

Teemo can build crit, but a lot of his damage is in his poison, which won't crit even if he builds crit. That's why when it was possible to be viable without building crit, he usually didn't; he built item 3085 and possibly item 3115 and poisoned all the things. He can still do that, but it doesn't measure up to someone with crit items and a steroid that gives them more/bigger crits (like the common AS steroids).

Varus and Twitch sort of have the same problem, but not as bad because their bonus damage isn't as important to their overall damage.

As for Urgot, I haven't seen enough of him to have a strong opinion on what he is, other than really unpopular.

Remlap1223Mar 13, 20153 votes

If you look on LolKing, she's actually classified as a meta top laner now.

Shaded StrikerMar 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If you look on LolKing, she's actually classified as a meta top laner now.

I wouldn't count lolking as a reliable source for a champions "true role"

If you to more indepth sites like champion.gg it shows that quinn is taken more commonly into the adc role than top lane. Annie who lolking classifies as a support is shown to be taken more commonly to mid lane.

Remlap1223Mar 14, 20151 votes

"Meta" role isn't a "true role" it's the role that a champion is most effective in. In Annie's case, right now, due to the abomination that is Kalista, she's getting more play as a support, and is more effective in that role. Morgana has been a meta support for the past year, despite being listed as a primary mage. And for Quinn, due to her range disadvantage and backwards passive, which makes her more of a ranged bruiser and burst assassin, she's considered to be a much stronger top laner (and possibly mid depending on the champion).

Brenticus12Mar 14, 20151 votes

I'm pretty sure the stats you emtnioned are in regards to low elo because Quinn's laning phase is stupid strong and she wins lane more times than not. It's her range that makes her risky because in teamfights she's an easy target if she wants to do damage but low elo don't make use of this disadvantage as often (Also Quinn is good at catching out people and you see more people roaming alone so they get picked off and it turns into a 4v5)

In low elo it's easier to win mid as Annie duo to how people underestimate what she can do and this translates to her good late game teamfighting with AOE ult stuns.

Remlap1223Mar 14, 20151 votes

No, the meta is defined by the higher divisions. If Annie and Morgana are listed as supports, and Quinn as a top laner respectively, then they're meta supports and top laners. Simple as that. What happens elo to elo is irrelevant, only solo queue to ranked 5v5s (LCS). Anyone is viable in bronze.

Shaded StrikerMar 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, the meta is defined by the higher divisions. If Annie and Morgana are listed as supports, and Quinn as a top laner respectively, then they're meta supports and top laners. Simple as that. What happens elo to elo is irrelevant, only solo queue to ranked 5v5s (LCS). Anyone is viable in bronze.

But the statistics show that Annie is taken more commonly to mid lane and Quinn to botlane for Platinum+ elo.

Auz the RipperMar 13, 20151 votes

She is an ADC

Or at least was meant to be Although that intention may not have been well realized

And I have seen Quinns do very well bot

JamareeMar 13, 20152 votes

She has the kit of an ADC, but her kit is so much better as a top laner, we mark her as a top laner. She CAN do well bot, but other ADCs do their job better.

bluegolisanoMar 13, 20151 votes

or Twitch? or Trist?

junglerboy16Mar 13, 20152 votes

Twitch was one of the priority picks for most of last season, and Tristana was pick or ban at the same time.

DreadlocksMar 14, 20151 votes

And Lucian received a lot of nerfs

Rew711Mar 13, 20151 votes

Graves has been my first ADC since 2013 (when I started). And, he isn't even the strongest. Slow movement with no boosts, but a small slide. His attacks must be in close range. Even his ultimate. And he isn't easy to just pick up.

JamareeMar 13, 201513 votes

At release, him and Taric hit six, and the ADC died. You were stunned, Taric then walked up, upped both of their damage with his R, lowered your armor with his W, and then Graves bursted you down without much real counterplay. Every single ADC, except Varus (still don't count Quinn as an ADC) has seen a ban rate that high, every single one.

SammystormMar 13, 20152 votes

Initially taric would walk into lane stun you hit wr and then the adc would auto once and you would die. Taric burst use to be insane.

Hirok0Mar 13, 201515 votes

The word you're looking for is 'anti-fun'. It is NOT fun to play against a competent kallista. Her passive is the problem. Period. The ult is fine. The OW combo with her buddy is fine. Her little dashes are a huge problem. It might be fun for kallista players, and only the ones who are used to it, but it is not fun to anyone she is playing against, because you basically have to play rock-paper-scissors with two wrong answers whenever you use a skill shot, and there is no escape if you miss. The dashes needs a rework. Instead of being a dash-all-day thing, it should be a every 10 seconds or so kind of thing, giving room for her to use it for fantastic dodges, but not giving her abusive unfun power.

DropFillMar 13, 201510 votes

And a lot of people said the last "nerf" to her was enough. If an adc like ashe gets fed, you try to pick off her. If kalista gets fed you just ff. Nearly impossible to kill her with that BS passive and ult

AriafluxMar 13, 20156 votes

She has a high ban rate and decent play rate, but other than that, her statistics are average to poor. Among all the ADCs, she has the lowest damage, low kill participation and average death count. I think that her strong points are objective control, teamfight initiation, and maybe vision, but sadly there are no statistics available for us to directly observe the effects of these.

Are there actually any objective evidence to show that she's broken, other than player speculations? I really won't use ban rate because Azir had a ban rate of 20-30% back when his win rate was 38%, and people were clamoring for buffs.

Edit: My bad, I forgot to link the statistics >.< http://champion.gg/champion/Kalista

Knight SoIaire Mar 13, 20154 votes

the term low damage on adc is kinda a weird argument ofc her skills arent as potent but her autos are actualy on preety equal footing even if we dont take the soulbound interaction into account,

also the thing about her is not that she kills you before you kill her, its that you cant kill her while she still pumps damage, so damage comparision is invalid

objective evidence to show that she's broken

just look at how she interacts with other champions enemy lacks insane mobility = she hops around being invincible enemy has mobility but cant burst her before she hops away= she still kites you like its nothing enemy uses skillshots= she has an insane advantage of being basicaly unpredictable with those jumps enemy uses point and click abilities that are ranged = kalista dies, end of story, she doesnt even get to have a word in it

she is broken mainly because of the way she interacts with other champions, rendering a big part of all the champions useless and giving them literaly no chance at even scratching her, whhhile also being rendered useless by big part of the champion pool those interactions go faar beyodn simple counterpick

owerall she ewen waries from being opressive to underwhelming from game to game, depending on lane performance

AriafluxMar 13, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jEqZWAt5,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-03-13T08:15:22.774+0000)

the term low damage on adc is kinda a weird argument ofc her skills arent as potent but her autos are actualy on preety equal footing even if we dont take the soulbound interaction into account,

Sorry about that, I forgot to link stats. When I mentioned low damage, it's after taking into account everything, and the eventual damage she did in a game. If you look at the site, she's below even Urgot, and a full 7k lower damage than top damage dealer, Kog'Maw.

also the thing about her is not that she kills you before you kill her, its that you cant kill her while she still pumps damage, so damage comparision is invalid

This is a popular argument, and this is what I mean by lack of observable stats. I get it that her kit looks like she can dish out tons of damage while not getting any, but the fact is the stats show low damage and average damage received. I just don't see how what is being claimed is true.

just look at how she interacts with other champions enemy lacks insane mobility = she hops around being invincible enemy has mobility but cant burst her before she hops away= she still kites you like its nothing enemy uses skillshots= she has an insane advantage of being basicaly unpredictable with those jumps enemy uses point and click abilities that are ranged = kalista dies, end of story, she doesnt even get to have a word in it

All very valid sounding arguments that I can agree with but nonetheless, they are speculations, not hard evidence. For example, it would be very useful if we can have stats such as win % in certain match-up (e.g. does Kalista have a 60% win rate in games that have Darius as opponent?). Only with these stats can we even start to analyze whether she is broken and how so.

she is broken mainly because of the way she interacts with other champions, rendering a big part of all the champions useless and giving them literaly no chance at even scratching her, whhhile also being rendered useless by big part of the champion pool those interactions go faar beyodn simple counterpick

I think my earlier points addresses this already, mainly that it's really just player opinions which might not be totally reliable.

owerall she ewen waries from being opressive to underwhelming from game to game, depending on lane performance

I don't disagree with this but I want to point out something that I'm wondering about. Why does her mobility vs certain immobile melee matter so much? She does not lane against them, they totally do not have to duel her alone and will most likely fight her only as a team or at least with other team mates. Furthermore, if she is truly broken vs melee, and is uncounterable, why do we not see her top more? This is not an argument against her being broken per say, but that the outcry about her brokenness seem a bit undeserved.

P.S. typed this on phone, sorry for poor wording etc.

dcmastaMar 13, 20154 votes

It basically comes down to team fighting. Typically melee tanks are the ones diving the backline. Most of them can't do anything against Kalista - she kites indefinitely and any peel basically means your tank is going to die in this endeavor.

Secondly, she is not seen top because without a duo 2 of her abilities are basically useless. (W passive and Ult). Also, early game her kiting isn't much of a problem due to not having any AS yet.

It seems you are focusing your arguments mostly on laning phase. She isn't that ridiculous during lane phase unless she snowballs. Her teamfights are rather ridiculous and most top laners/junglers can't do much to stop her.

Ariel the CruelMar 13, 20155 votes

Not to disagree with your claim. But ban rates are often a better indicator of frustration than balance.

The previous Nid had a fairly high ban rate, though she was neither OP or Broken (Well... the invisible spear bug was). However, nobody enjoyed having to dodge uranium spears every 6 seconds from a champ that was near impossible to chase.

Yuki AkumaMar 13, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jEqZWAt5,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-03-13T15:45:24.533+0000)

Not to disagree with your claim. But ban rates are often a better indicator of frustration than balance.

The previous Nid had a fairly high ban rate, though she was neither OP or Broken (Well... the invisible spear bug was). However, nobody enjoyed having to dodge uranium spears every 6 seconds from a champ that was near impossible to chase.

Nidalee has never had a weak point, her kit has always been far too versatile and there was always an overpowered way to use her, whether it was AD bruiser doing tons of damage with her cougar form and attack speed steroid, or full AP with 1500 damage spears that were on a 5 second cooldown. She is not a good example of a high ban rate character, because she is easily one of the most broken characters to have ever been made, even to this day she is a "God tier" pick.

Ariel the CruelMar 14, 20152 votes

"Broken" means she's wot working as intended. Previous Nid was balanced around that 1500 damage slow skill shot (not so much the bugs). It had the same effective impact as a blitz grab and both are effective at running away. If either one landed their skill shot, you were effectively dead. Granted Nid's spear had about +50% range and lower CD whle Blitz grab had 3x the bullet speed.

And while it's true that Nid has never been "weak" (that I remember), I specifically refer to the previous version of Nid being balanced. The Bruiser version before that Oppressively Powerful. The new version just trades some of her spear damage (The thing still hits like a freaking ICBM) to buff her other frustrating elements (wave clear and mobility).

And right now, she's not really "god tier" (I've been away for a few weeks, so sorry if this has changed). She's seeing success in the jungle because of her incredible clear speed. And because that clear speed, matched with her general safety, allows her to survive the "Lee Sin bar" - which is one of the major factors in determining the high tier junglers.

The problem is that she suffers from CertainlyT syndrome (yes, I went there). While she may be working as intended and reasonably balanced, NOBODY enjoys playing against her. There's no feeling of "I just outplayed the opponent" or sense of "I can do this to put her in a bad spot". Win, loose, or break even, there's no high point playing against her. Just frustration if you don't win. And Ban rates tend to reflect that (especially at lower elos).

RaptameiMar 13, 20154 votes

She needs to be disabled for a week while they rework her and remove that passive and ult. Refund everyone as a token of goodwill.

Reynard the ƒoxMar 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'm not stating she is stupidly OP, simply she is broken

._.

The Storm DragonMar 13, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=a god damn hero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jEqZWAt5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-13T06:18:36.374+0000)

._.

Broken and OP don't mean the same thing. Something can be broken (IE be poorly designed) without being overpowered.

For example, pre-rework Veigar. He was underpowered but he couldn't be buffed because he was broken (instant, long duration AOE stun)

Madman357Mar 13, 20153 votes

The only ability that she has that's in a reasonable state is her Q, literally everything else in her kit needs to be removed or reworked.

Her passive needs some sort of internal cooldown so its not so retarded.

The %hp damage of her W needs to be removed or at the very least replaced with something not damage oriented imo.

The damage on her E needs to be toned down at the very least against non-champion targets if not against champions as well.

The hard CC she gets with her ult needs to be replaced with something else. I don't mind that she can save an ally with her ult, but when that teammate can then get thrown back at the attackers, CCing them and then dumping their own CC on top of it things become ridiculous.

I mean really, shes like 10 different champions rolled into one.

She has a better version of Yasuo E as her passive.

Her Q works somewhat similar to Cait/Varus/Sivir Q but cant penetrate minions unless it kills them.

Her W is a better version of Ashe E.

Her E is a better version of Twitch E.

Her ult is a combo of a better Thresh W and an Alistar Q.

I mean jesus, talk about overloaded.

ReikkenMar 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her W is a better version of Ashe W.

Ashe W is volley. Kalista has nothing comparable to that.

Champion SkinMar 14, 20152 votes

I think Kalista E is fine on champions... if you give her enough time to stack it up... you deserve to take a lot of damage... you do have an ADC pounding at you after all..

shark musicMar 13, 20153 votes

Half the Kallistas I fight only ever use that hopping throw attack. Spamming it over and over and over. She's obviously very broken, and she's not the least bit fun to interact with, on any level. Also, does she only have that one skin? Because the visual boredom level with her is real. Very real.

SimplicateMar 14, 20152 votes

The only reason I personally started banning her in games is because my ADC usually picks her and ends up feeding because they NEVER know how to properly play her.

ReikkenMar 13, 20151 votes

kalista isn't any stronger or weaker than other marksmen. just different. gotta play differently against her

IceKingChernobogMar 13, 20154 votes

if an adc can kite better than vayne, it's a problem

Remlap1223Mar 13, 20158 votes

Uh...

Ashe Caitlyn Corki Graves Lucian Kalista Quinn Sivir Varus

Most ADCs can kite better than Vayne. Vayne doesn't kite, she all in's your ass.

SirsirMar 14, 20153 votes

In lane she does, since you can't kite range. But vs bruisers/assassins can kite EXTREMELY well with Qs and E.

...and in WHAT UNIVERSE is Varus good at kiting? Ulting someone to give you time to pound them and kiting are completely different. Varus kiting is only as good as general kiting.

Remlap1223Mar 14, 20151 votes

Ashe Self-explanatory, was almost as annoying as Kalista was in season 1 due to her perma slow and range.

Caitlyn Her E, range, and Q allow her some pretty effective kiting.

Corki All of his abilities make him a ridiculously good kiter.

Ezreal (forgot to include up there for some reason) His abilities allow for really good kiting.

Graves His natural tankiness and burst damage and vision control allow him to easily kite, despite the range disadvantage.

Jinx Can kite if you're really skilled with carries, but for the most part is a zoning marksman.

Kalista I don't even want to talk about this bitch. The fact that she exists is bad enough.

Lucian His passive allows for some insane kiting despite the range disadvantage. His mobility gives him safety.

MissFortune Another zoning marksman. If you're stupid enough to keep her passive up, then yes, she'll kite your butt to death, but most likely you're going to be the one to do the kiting.

Quinn Her passive, blind, and vault allow for ridiculous kiting ability should you play her as an ADC. Most time I just play her top lane and just insta-gib auto attack based champions.

Sivir Her Q, but especially her passive allows for insane kiting ability. Her W can work too if you use it to bank it off of minions for the speed boost.

Tristana She can't really kite well once she hits the late game. After that the range advantage plus the rapid fire will definitely make you think twice before chasing her.

Twitch (forgot to include up there for some reason as well) A good Twitch is going to make you regret not being able to catch up to him if he starts kitting you. The slow, true damage, and natural attack speed makes for an excellent kiter in the right hands. If he ults, well, your team just got screwed too.

Varus A skilled Varus is extremely good at kiting. His range advantage is not as significant as Ashe's, Cait's, or Tristana's, but it's there. Plus his zone control and blighted quiver will just murder people who chase him too long.

Vayne And finally, as I said up there, Vayne is an all in champion. Her movespeed boost doesn't work until she's chasing an opponent herself, but a good Vayne could use tumble effectively. First thing that comes to mind when thinking about Vayne isn't her kiting potential, it's "Oh god, where'd she go? Oh god, where did my health go?"

Silents429Mar 13, 20151 votes

Wait because she has the 2nd highest banrate she is broken, but the one with the 1st highest isn't?

This is terrible logic. Kalista is just a pain in the ass she really isn't that strong.

Champion SkinMar 14, 20151 votes

Depends on who you play... if you play a melee champion like Xin Zhao or Olaf... then Kalista is rather strong... almost broken... If you are playing a ranged champion or a melee champion with CC and or burst

Silents429Mar 14, 20151 votes

You are going to use Olaf as an example. Really?

Yes I know the correlation with her and melee champions, and it is comical watching morons chase her too, if you can't get to her get the second priority target like the midlaner, if Kalista is focusing you then the other 4 people on your team will excel.

And as I hinted above using a banrate to decide if she is broken is retarded, doesn't mean she isn't or not. But using a banrate for that is terrible.

Champion SkinMar 14, 20152 votes

I didn't even mention ban rate? I am just saying that kalista's strength depends a lot on what kinds of enemies she is facing... with her being exceptionally strong against melee champions (with exceptions to assassins which gap close to her and kill her before she can react) And well not nearly as strong against ranged champions

I am not saying she is too strong... I am just saying she is toxic/anti-fun for melee champions