Remember all the nerfs against Zed that people on the forums thought would destroy him in the past?

Kingsgrave·Feb 5, 2015·18 votes·2,487 views

The exact same thing is happening with on these boards currently

Many threads going "Rip Azir" just like they did with Rip Zed on the Forums back when he got a lot of changes that seemed really heavy like reducing the speed of his W and making him generate a Shadow at his location instead of generating one as he appeared behind an enemy. There were many others but I forgot.

They are also the exact same people that complained about the MS bonus on Ahri Q saying it still was too much of a nerf to the rest of her kit even though it skyrocketed her winrate to 58% right after that change went live.

Rip Azir you will probably recover from this easily because forum circlejerk is almost always wrong

52 Comments

ForgiveColourFeb 5, 201515 votes

people that say rip azir are also the one that says azir is balanced so i just ignore them

Kitten of EvilFeb 5, 201510 votes

Wait, people actually thought the "leave a shadow where you came from" change on Zed's ult was a nerf? Hello, free escapability. Then allow me to propose that Riot buff Zed by reverting that ... "nerf".

In Ahri and Zed's case, they changed some thing (especially in Ahri's case) just moving around the current power budget. Her E lost its damage amp, now her Q gives huge MS boost. That's not the across-the-board nerfs Azir's currently facing.

Granted, I think his W nuke to towers is a bit high, and I don't even mind the reduced damage on Q (though 50 damage at all levels is steep)... but nerfing his soldiers' AA range is going to be a lot tougher. It'd be like shrinking the size of Ori's ball hitbox.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 6, 20151 votes

Would honestly much rather have the old Zed ult than the current one.

No more tower diving with absolutely no punishment, and also allowed Zed to hit 3 shurikens, which rewarded skillful use of his Q. With the old ult Zed players that could set up the 3 shurikens after ulting were rewarded, whereas now Zed just ults on someone and runs them down with autos while not really caring if his Q hits or not.

Sightless66Feb 5, 20155 votes

I might agree, except Azir is getting a range nerf. Those are some of the harshest nerfs you can throw out, and Zed never got any of those. There are a ton of examples of range nerfs being some of the worst things a champion can take, particularly when combined alongside other nerfs. Riot should be taking it slow whenever they start throwing these out.

360D3GR3SSFeb 5, 20154 votes

Zed was not having damage changes like Azir....Azir is literally just getting a huge damage reduction.

KingsgraveFeb 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zed was not having damage changes like Azir....Azir is literally just getting a huge damage reduction.

A long range mage with a lot of utility probably shouldn't have that much damage anyway

360D3GR3SSFeb 5, 20151 votes

...all i did was respond to your post...You said nothing about whether or not these Azir nerfs were necessary in your original post... All I know is Azir is not exactly top tier right now (close) but these certainly will put him further down in the list.

KingsgraveFeb 5, 20156 votes

{quoted}

...all i did was respond to your post...You said nothing about whether or not these Azir nerfs were necessary in your original post... All I know is Azir is not exactly top tier right now (close) but these certainly will put him further down in the list.

Azir is seen as top tier in the LCS currently

360D3GR3SSFeb 5, 20154 votes

LCS =/= a majority of the players

KingsgraveFeb 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

LCS =/= a majority of the players

If a champion is destroying in solo queue but not LCS you still need to fix it If a champion is destroying in LCS but not in solo queue you still need to fix it

lDontLiftIcarryFeb 6, 20151 votes

as an eve player I think you're full of shit cynical.

Remember eve season 1? casuals got her nerfed from all the bitching She wasn't even played in the pro scene because all the junglers were actually viable back then not just 1-5 like riot has made it for the past 3 years.

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

as an eve player I think you're full of shit cynical.

Remember eve season 1? casuals got her nerfed from all the bitching She wasn't even played in the pro scene because all the junglers were actually viable back then not just 1-5 like riot has made it for the past 3 years.

If a champion is dominating or pushing out picks in either solo queue or in LCS they need to be fixed

Eve was terribly designed but honestly you should direct your anger at riot for waiting forever to rework her rather than just nerf her into the ground

lDontLiftIcarryFeb 6, 20151 votes

no point in getting mad at riot they're owned by tencent 52% of their stock is in their hands. Americans don't own their own game anymore. Why do you think these patches are shit still? Chinese companies don't improve their products. They're used to pushing out cheap shit cause they know people will still buy it and support it cause it's cheaper etc...

AriafluxFeb 6, 20152 votes

Wait what? Did you even read his post correctly?

Remember eve season 1? casuals got her nerfed from all the bitching She wasn't even played in the pro scene because all the junglers were actually viable back

Sounds like she was a problem in solo queue and not LCS.

If a champion is destroying in solo queue but not LCS you still need to fix it

The Bard DogFeb 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The exact same thing is happening with on these boards currently

Many threads going "Rip Azir" just like they did with Rip Zed on the Forums back when he got a lot of changes that seemed really heavy like reducing the speed of his W and making him generate a Shadow at his location instead of generating one as he appeared behind an enemy. There were many others but I forgot.

They are also the exact same people that complained about the MS bonus on Ahri Q saying it still was too much of a nerf to the rest of her kit even though it skyrocketed her winrate to 58% right after that change went live.

Rip Azir you will probably recover from this easily because forum circlejerk is almost always wrong

nerfing his base damages makes harassing pointless early, as now he has no damage coupled with a massive mana cost, and they're nerfing his soldier's AA range by a lot, and they're nerfing the ratios on possibly the only good thing about azir in laning phase, his tower busting. there is now no point in wasting a soldier on a tower because of it's negligible damage it does.

i would put these nerfs in the same range as yasuo nerfs. taking everything in his kit and watering it down so severely, that while on paper it's a solid kit, in execution leaves absolutely zero wiggle room.

also, ahri's change was vastly different than the change azir got. the move speed boost was a good trade off for the 20% damage on paper, and zed is just flat out broken because of low energy costs, amazing wave clear, and a minion execute. all of which azir doesn't have till 3-4 items.

no champion should require absolutely perfect execution to do what a lot of other champions do while making many mistakes. Zed LeeSin Gnar Riven Leblanc Akali Darius Velkoz

KING OF MASKSFeb 6, 20154 votes

I'm honestly curious, how do you include Darius in that list of champions? In my experience I never have that much Leeway (hahahahahaha) when I play him.

The Bard DogFeb 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wNTEqVJX,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-02-06T00:37:37.468+0000)

I'm honestly curious, how do you include Darius in that list of champions? In my experience I never have that much Leeway (hahahahahaha) when I play him.

granted as long as you don't miss your e, all darius has to do is aa a few times and he has a massive true damage ult coming at you, that even if you flash mid animation still hits you.

KING OF MASKSFeb 6, 20152 votes

It's true that he has some pretty crazy damage even at level 1, but to balance it out he has zero sustain and nearly non-existent disengage. He's stupidly vulnerable to any kind of poke and insanely vulnerable to ganks since if you're using Q to harass you'll inevitably push minion waves hard (somewhat mitigated if you ward vigilantly).

I just don't think he belongs in the same category as Gnar/Lee/etc. There's a lot you can fuck up while playing Darius.

P.S. The ult hitting you post-flash is fairly common among those types of channeled abilities (Demacian Justice and Frenzy are the two that come to mind right now).

AbsoluteSadmanFeb 6, 20151 votes

uhhhh vel koz?

Cuz1972Feb 5, 20153 votes

You can replace Zed with any character that was ever nerfed.

Kuroi86Feb 5, 201513 votes

Olaf Urgot Taric

Ro0kiFeb 6, 20153 votes

Zac worst part is people don't even remember him.

MrSc0ttyFeb 5, 20153 votes

People being zed freelo collectors.

AuryielFeb 5, 20153 votes

I mean I don't think that'll kill him, but comparing the two is pretty silly.

Those are straight-up numbers nerfs, Zed received a ton of changes

Silents429Feb 6, 20153 votes

While I agree with you that people circle jerk on these forums about nerfs and buffs constantly. I think you went about expressing it all wrong.

You need to make a post more formal, grammatically correct, and use bullet points :P

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

While I agree with you that people circle jerk on these forums about nerfs and buffs constantly. I think you went about expressing it all wrong.

You need to make a post more formal, grammatically correct, and use bullet points :P

As long as ppl understand it I don't really care. Being 100% grammatically correct is mostly irrelevant.

I'm not a fan of formalities and bulletpoints in general and both seem mostly unnecessary here anyway.

Silents429Feb 6, 20152 votes

Okay but it's that logic and reasoning that makes Riot not take most threads serious.

Grammar is important, just because we understand doesn't mean we don't think your illiterate and shouldn't take what you say serious.

Being formal in a post is exactly what Riot said would get a discussion out of them if you want it. If you don't do it then don't expect them to respond.

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Okay but it's that logic and reasoning that makes Riot not take most threads serious.

Grammar is important, just because we understand doesn't mean we don't think your illiterate and shouldn't take what you say serious.

Being formal in a post is exactly what Riot said would get a discussion out of them if you want it. If you don't do it then don't expect them to respond.

I don't care if Riot responds or not. This thread has nothing to do with them and their posting or not posting has no affect on anything in this board. When they do post it's always PR language from a support team member or artist or it's just some false promise from a higher up in game design.

Grammar is important, being 100% grammatically correct is not and is honestly pointless and not worth my or anyone's time.

Besides, rioters have responded to threads with constant cussing and spelling mistakes. The only ones that care about formalities and how optimistic the post looks and sounds are the very people whose feedback you shouldn't really care about on the gameplay and balance sub board.

Silents429Feb 6, 20152 votes

Except they answer questions like people want, comment and share information like people want etc. I don't know who you are referring too but whenever they are called for and answer they give a satisfying answer.

Grammar is important. Bt tlking lik this is fckin obnoxous dntchu thnk?

Great on how they comment, but they flat out said, and even stickied a recent post saying they would only respond to well written threads that promote constructive behavior

PentaJumpFeb 5, 20152 votes

Azir won't be killed, but.. those nerfs seem like a bit much, I think. He doesn't need to be nerfed into being weak.

PæanFeb 5, 20152 votes

I can understand the turret-nuke reduction, and the reduction on the Q damage... But the AA range of his soldiers? That's little much

Magma Lux MidFeb 6, 20152 votes

I've played Shyvana vs Azir before, and if I wanted any CS while my e was on cooldown, I'd take around 5 pokes from the soldiers at the minimum. That adds up pretty quickly.

PæanFeb 6, 20152 votes

It can be frustrating to play as a melee vs any ranged, especially the psuedo-ranged lane-bully that azir is. The damage early can be very oppressive, however most azirs will push due to the soldiers hitting all units in a line. Once he pushes to your turret, your jungler comes in and you get a kill, some missed farm, and possibly will snowball or at least put enough pressure on him to play a little safer.

I speak about this from experience :C The damage reduction is needed, but the range is the type of nerf that is overtly harsh on any champion. If Caitlyn got a range nerf (i would love that) there wouldn't much of a reason to pick her over other champs. random example :P

I'm just worried this will kill off many Azir players and I'm predicting his pick/win rate will drop a bit.

lojicianFeb 5, 20151 votes

I remember when reddit decided lowering kayle's ratios and making her ult free was going to completely gut her in some 3000 upvote thread. I'm pretty sure none of them had ever played kayle or top lane before.

AlphariteFeb 6, 20154 votes

There are ways to circumvent a specific playstyle (Full AP Burst) being nerfed. Azir has no way to play outside of what he does right now, and they are destroying that.

SouL1essFeb 5, 20151 votes

Same with Talon and Fizz, really.

They are definitely weaker than before, but by no means unplayable, as "gutting" imply.

AlphariteFeb 6, 20151 votes

Fizz is utter, utter TRASH right now. Words cannot describe how bad he is.

Talon is still good, never lost the fastest AD burst in the game.

Hard PenetratorFeb 5, 20151 votes

What I hate most is that sometimes after you flash Azir ult it still throws you back for no reason.

AlphariteFeb 6, 20151 votes

Zed's changes have almost never been direct nerfs. The Ult shadow change was seen as a buff by pros.

Azir is getting a fundmanetal damage reduction on two of his most important abilites, namely his AA's and Q. If you think that this either won't affect him or is minor, you have absolutely so foresight.

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zed's changes have almost never been direct nerfs. The Ult shadow change was seen as a buff by pros.

Azir is getting a fundmanetal damage reduction on two of his most important abilites, namely his AA's and Q. If you think that this either won't affect him or is minor, you have absolutely so foresight.

It's going to affect him but it's not going to destroy him completely

AlphariteFeb 6, 20152 votes

If Azir's winrate does not go below 45% in gold+, I will mystery gift you.

Hold me to that.

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If Azir's winrate does not go below 45% in gold+, I will mystery gift you.

Hold me to that.

The only winrates that are relevant to someone as hard to play as Azir are ones from the LCS.

AlphariteFeb 6, 20151 votes

Then this means that if a champion is too good in LCS, they should be gutted at all levels of play so no one can enjoy them?

Great logic. We may as well delete the 60% of champions that never get played in LCS then.

KingsgraveFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then this means that if a champion is too good in LCS, they should be gutted at all levels of play so no one can enjoy them?

Great logic. We may as well delete the 60% of champions that never get played in LCS then.

So by your logic we should never nerf champions ever?

AlphariteFeb 7, 20151 votes

What? How the hell did you get that from my previous statement?

AltricadFeb 6, 20151 votes

I'd like to point out a very special bug Khazix

He had this happen to him THREE times in a row, and like they say, third time's the charm. He's so far never picked in any proffessional play

Gin no NekomataFeb 6, 20151 votes

I 've always felt that Azir 's design simply didn't work out properly; he was one of the clunciest champs on release before both bugfixes and QoL buffs, and the only reason he worked was because he dished out really extreme damage . He's still pretty clunky, but playable; but receiving heavy nerfs to both damage and range of his soldiers will make that issue worse.

KeyoshiFeb 6, 20151 votes

I only played azir for maybe a week or 2 when he was released, i don't really play mid all that well but i can tell you from my honest opinion he was pretty strong from the start. His zoning is seriously insane. I guess the only thing i thought was "pretty" op was his q dmg other then that i didn't think he was all that. i haven't really seen a lot of them either. I think it's a fair balance to see his q getting nerfed, the mana cost for it is pretty low and the damage is pretty high. To me he has one of the highest skill caps, Positioning is key.

VelasanFeb 6, 20151 votes

The problem with the Azir nerfs is inevitably that he needs the damage, because he's not a utility mage. He has utility, but to kill people not to lock them down.

In this sense, he is already so difficult to micro manage his soldiers that constant damage reduction to said soldiers just makes him into a much weaker and more gimmicky Orianna. Case in point, if you were an ADC (who also have slows and disengages), but now you had to reload your weapon and every time you attacked it was a skill shot and then they started to reduce your damage... where would you be?

Plus, he's supposed to be a zoning mage. How is he going to zone now? They nerfed his overall damage last time and buffed Q saying it would help even him out more. Now it's straight nerfs all the way around.

So, yeah he will still be functional and playable... but why would you play a character that you have to micro manage that much if the benefits aren't going to be very good or in fact less than another character in the same role?

Azir = Micromanaged magic adc. He does not root, he does not stun. The most he has on him is a slow and a good disengage that comes in handy in team fights if you are almost right on top of the people you are fighting already. I mained him for a lot of s4 (most games played) with a decent win rate. I'm not high elo, but I know it's bad when they expect you to stand there longer to kill someone when you are a squishy mage and you have to move your spells (soldiers) around just to damage. Can't even build tanky anymore and expect to have that damage.

Until they figure out what they are doing with Azir I'm not playing him anymore. He won't be unusable, or broken, but his consistency is going to tank and he just won't be fun to play anymore (not that we got a lot of time to try him with no bugs before the nerf bat started swinging at his legs).

FelixphaetonFeb 6, 20151 votes

I think we can all agree that Zed's R shadow change turned out to be a buff.

So Zed and Ahri both got very strong compensatory buffs, while Azir gets heavy handed nerfs across the board, unless you think 3 AD will make a tangible difference, of course.

So no. Azir will not magically become stronger than he was before his changes.