Mobile Champions should deal at least 20-40% less damage in their full combo than Immobile Champions

Kingsgrave·Feb 15, 2015·143 votes·6,633 views

Mobility is a huge power increase and honestly mobile champions don't pay for that power increase by losing actual potential damage

They should lose a lot of damage by becoming super mobile

should ALWAYS deal WAYYYYY more damage than should honestly out damage and out tank in every possible scenario should bring more to a team than in every scenario and team comp

Mobility creep is fine if they actually pay for that mobility in some way

Why?

Mobility is not only power its utility Its indirect tankiness Its so useful in literally every capacity Mobility champions can also deal damage far more often than immobile which alone spikes up their potential combo

108 Comments

BubbaDukeFeb 15, 201526 votes

I really can't see Ahri out damaging immobile mages like Brand, Viktor, Xerath, Anivia, or Vel'Koz in a team fight.

1v1, maybe.

Champs that don't have mobility need another sort of utility to survive. Things like Syndra's push, Veigars wall, Xerath's Range etc.

Champs that don't have any of these sort of tools are the ones that you never see anymore, like Karthus.

AuryielFeb 15, 20158 votes

The problem is that Ahri has enough damage to kill you AND she's mobile

Sure, Brand can OVERKILL you but what good is that?

More than likely he'll just die after outputting his damage, whereas Ahri will live because of her innate safety and be around to continue being useful for her team.

So, yes, immobile champions need some sort of safety too, not more damage.

NinpireFeb 15, 20153 votes

At least before the ahri changes all her mobility was tied to her ultimate....

BubbaDukeFeb 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that Ahri has enough damage to kill you AND she's mobile

Sure, Brand can OVERKILL you but what good is that?

More than likely he'll just die after outputting his damage, whereas Ahri will live because of her innate safety and be around to continue being useful for her team.

So, yes, immobile champions need some sort of safety too, not more damage.

Well in a 1v1, Ahri would probably win (although it might just depend on who lands their CC first.) But League isn't a 1v1 game.

In a team fight, Brand will have a way bigger impact. What he brings to the team is his massive AOE damage, and he has his stun if someone charges him.

But his team should be trying to keep the enemy off him too. Granted, Tanks aren't as common as they should be, but thats another issue.

LeeDarkFeb 15, 20159 votes

Yeah, that's not true at all.

Brand loses out on being unable to clear waves because, as an immobile champion, he'll get initiated on; Ahri can bait out these engages and protect her lane from the push. Brand also cannot stay too far away from the turret, and must risk getting flanked and killed, because he needs to already be in position to do his damage; Ahri can use her mobility to stay in a safer position until the right moment to dash in and Charm someone. Brand has to set up his CC, often with a very short range spell, AND then land the skillshot stun; Ahri can Charm from out of nowhere.

Essentially, Ahri does everything Brand does, but from a much safer position. Yeah, if you are stupid enough to clump up, let the other team engage on you, and Brand can land his W and ult on multiple people, he'll do more damage. It's the difference between theory and practice that makes him non-viable. In theory, he does more damage. In practice, he does no damage, because he is dead.

AuryielFeb 16, 20157 votes

Let me correct you right here

In AN IDEAL SCENARIO FOR BRAND, he outclasses Ahri

The thing is, this ideal scenario is very rare AND although Ahri's best case scenario is not 100-0 the whole enemy team, it is much more easy to achieve. Ahri is much, much more reliable than Brand

Brand vs Ahri, how you seem to think it goes : The enemy team is all sitting in a bush, but they don't know it's warded. Brand's Jarvan promptly E-Q-Rs the whole enemy team, followed by a Leona ultimate. Brand uses his E-W-R combo and gets a pentakill

Brand vs Ahri, what really happens : Brands gets dove at level 6 and dies. Ahri proceeds to gank bot lane and snowballs her allies' lane. While posturing for objectives, she lands a charm on a target and her team deletes said target, creating a favorable situation for Ahri and her team.

I'm exaggerating, of course, but Ahri's inherent safety allows her to vastly outclass Brand, even though he does a SHITLOAD more damage than Ahri.

Now compare Ashe and Varus to Kalista and Graves Compare Nautilus to Lee Sin, Jarvan or Vi

Champions with mobility have a massive advantage over immobile champions and they do not pay for it nearly enough. Immobile champions are a liability and they need to have MASSIVE strengths to be justifiable picks. And then, most of the time, you still need to complement these champions with very strong peel supports or tanks to even make them work.

Dangerous ManFeb 16, 20152 votes

Nerf Ahri for being useful...She only damages squishy champs TBH all you need is 1 item 3083 And she won't kill you XD

AuryielFeb 16, 20152 votes

You know many mid lanners that can build a warmog's and be useful?

I sure don't.

It Hertz When IPFeb 16, 20156 votes

Vladimir.

Although I see the point you are trying to make.

CindikleFeb 15, 201525 votes

There's way too much to factor for just a strait up damage reduction.

Veigar has one of the strongest stuns in the game(non ulti). Even after the changes it will still be very extreme. (I assume it'll get reduced to a .5 delay as well). If he farmed well his single target damage will be enough to rival Leblanc with fewer button presses and less counterplay.

Brand will out damage all 3 of the other mages you listed in a teamfight. Short of a really bored Veigar in a custom game.

Morde's ult keeps his power back. The power it brings to a team is top notch. We'll have to see where his rework takes him. Since his damage is going down in favor of tankiness, maybe he can get something else. He is in fact gaining a gimmicky MS buffs.

Darius also out damages J4 and Gnar while not needing as many damage items(thus can build tankier).

Your ADC comparisons I can agree with to a point though. But you're examples are a bit over the top. Varus needs some touch ups. He does bring quite a bit of damage to a teamfight. But a lot of his power is assuming he lands his R. Otherwise you could just bring Kog'Maw to do the same job Varus can. I personally think Varus' ulti should give him a Hurricane effect for 3 AA's at 30/50/70% damage. This will help spread his W and will proc as his R spreads as well. Even if it's a 1v1. Having minions around could make those extra shots give him more HP.

Using Jinx is a bad example overall. As her and Darius both have combat effected MS buffs. Darius gain 5% MS for each stack of his passive. I'd say she has slightly less utility than Varus while having higher damage to make up for it though. I'd say she is for the most part a balanced ADC and would make a good example of what other ADC's power should feel like. Although this game cannot balance like that.

And talking about Kalista is like talking about Cass. Everyone gets hot and bothered and no one really listens.

IMO the real problem with the mobility creep is that it doesn't have any real counters. One of the main counters are point and click abilities. Something Riot tends to avoid. How about a new CC that disables mobility effects? It would be like a weaker silence. But I guess silences are not fun to watch in the LCS.

stuartk11Feb 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

IMO the real problem with the mobility creep is that it doesn't have any real counters. One of the main counters are point and click abilities. Something Riot tends to avoid. How about a new CC that disables mobility effects? It would be like a weaker silence. But I guess silences are not fun to watch in the LCS.

You mean like a root or snare? You cannot move, but still attack as normal and cast spells.

CindikleFeb 15, 20153 votes

Those are general counters. Not mobility counters.

Envy SinFeb 15, 20156 votes

Veigars stun is getting raped in the next patch, Almost a full second delay along with warning Indicators. Which means he's never going to land it anyways. Which means his Dark matter is no longer a skill either. Q is being turned into a skillshot.

Brand will only outdamage if the team is all standing right next to each other and he can get w e and r off on everyone.

Mord is getting turned into a bruser with 0 CC meaning he won't even have reason for people to TRY hurting him anymore, Everyone can just ignore him.

Those are just the one's i know about personally.

CindikleFeb 15, 20154 votes

He's also gaining a range increase. He will still be able to get people inside of it. It was never intended to be an instant stun. And they have had to balance him around this stun. It's been known as one of the strongest non-ulti stuns in the game with no real counterplay for a very long time. These changes should not surprise anyone. It's a matter of making sure the rest of his kit continues to work.

You're selling Brand too short and assuming the guy cannot land any abilities. By that logic Xerath needs buffs because you can avoid all of his skills while Brand at least has two targeted abilities.

ReazaleFeb 15, 20157 votes

THE RANGE IS A LIE , HIS ULT IS A CORE PART OF HIS BURST AND IT IS STILL 650!!! ITS LIKE FREAKING SYNDRA BEFORE THE BUFF! sry all caps but im really getting tired of it. And that range doesnt make up for the entire lose of an skill (GL landing Veigars W on non stunned targets)

CindikleFeb 15, 20152 votes

Again, the stun was never meant to be used that way.

And again, as long as the rest of his kit is made to match this he will be fine. If you think giving his R an increased range will be what he needs, voice it. Or even just an increase to those in his W.

Does not change the fact his old W could not stay.

Envy SinFeb 15, 20156 votes

Nobody is going to ever be caught in his stun. Ever. .75 seconds is a HUGE delay.

Ever had 750 ping? That's what it's going to be like. That's how LONG it will take.

.75 seconds is far to long of a cast time for ANYTHING. You could be any champion in the game, standing on one side of the stun as he casts it. Walk to the other side (without boots.) and not get stunned.

CindikleFeb 15, 20151 votes

Again, it was never meant to be an easy stun. It's a spell that says "sit here". But since those who got good with him could land it instantly, he had to be balanced around this.

If .75 is too long it will likely be lowered or he will get more power in the rest of his kit.

RetillinFeb 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Again, it was never meant to be an easy stun. It's a spell that says "sit here". **But since those who got good with him could land it instantly, he had to be balanced around this. **

If .75 is too long it will likely be lowered or he will get more power in the rest of his kit.

Yet the Lee Sin ward hope wasn't intended to be used the way it is now. Nor the Alistar combo. Both were found by players and have become "core" to those characters.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20153 votes

That's why Veigar's W has 1.25 second delay, because his stun was never meant to be easy. As long as Veigar's W has that awkwardly long delay, you need a easy way to keep people immobile in order to get hit.

SeenanFeb 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Envy Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qi2LqiBq,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-15T17:54:40.448+0000)

Nobody is going to ever be caught in his stun. Ever. .75 seconds is a HUGE delay.

Ever had 750 ping? That's what it's going to be like. That's how LONG it will take.

.75 seconds is far to long of a cast time for ANYTHING. You could be any champion in the game, standing on one side of the stun as he casts it. Walk to the other side (without boots.) and not get stunned.

.75seconds is not 750 ping. Not even close. Maybe 300.

Envy SinFeb 18, 20151 votes

1000 Ping = 1 second.

300 ping = .3 seconds

750 ping = .75 seconds

the math is hard.

Klatn YeloxFeb 16, 20151 votes

On the PBE his stun is at 1.25 delay. Unlandable literally.

CindikleFeb 16, 20151 votes

When did they do that? Last I saw it was 0.75.

ScramrailFeb 15, 201511 votes

I don't even know why youd have Jinx listed in there. Her passive only gives her a massive, short duration boost in movespeed when an enemy champion/tower dies if shes hit it in the last few seconds. Its kind of inconsequential when you compare it to the likes of Kalista, and she's even less mobile than ADCs like Graves/Lucian/Caitlyn who all have fairly low cooldown dashes.

The problem that seems to exist here is that highly mobile champions just tend to also have really overloaded kits in general. You've got Yasuo who has high mobility, high damage, solid protection from range through his windwall, and high control through his Q knockup and his ult, ontop of his passive shield. You've got Kalista who has high mobility, high damage, high objective control, and vision through her patrolling spirit, ontop of her ult that can be used to save her Oathsworn as well as initiation which gives her control through its knockup.

I cant understand how riot looks at these champion designs and gives them the OK. Wheres the weaknesses? Wheres the downside? Their older champions seem to be pretty solidly designed, with fairly clearly defined strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited. But the newer champions are just completely over the top that have a "we want our cake and want to eat it too" sort of mentality behind them.

They need to take the time and just rebalance a ton of champions at once in one massive patch or something. Either scaling up older champions to be on par with newer ones, or scaling down newer champions to make them more reasonably equipped.

WarlockLawFeb 15, 20151 votes

I stopped reading after you said grabest and Lucian have more mobility than kalista. All three must auto attack to increase the frequency of their dashes, but kalista gets it with every au to whereas the other two just lower a cool down. All three can also trigger it once without an enemy in range

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20153 votes

I think he was still referring to Jinx when he said "even less mobile than ADC's like"

SEKAIFeb 16, 20152 votes

Hint: Kalista and Yasuo are designed by the same guy.

So there's that.

JunkοFeb 15, 20154 votes

Varus technically does bring more to the team if you can hit his ultimate and the enemy team is grouped, though the latter doesn't happen often if the enemy team has a brain

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20152 votes

As always, the fact is that Varus will land his R 1 out of 10 times because enemies will always dash away.

Nameless VoiceFeb 15, 20154 votes

It's not just mobility. Champions tend not to pay enough in raw damage for utility in general.

A random example would be Orianna , who doesn't have that much lower damage/ratios than a normal mage, but has much more utility and zone control.

The problem is that it's hard to put an accurate value on something like utility. Raw damage is much easier to balance than utility or mobility.

KingsgraveFeb 15, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qi2LqiBq,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-15T15:40:01.987+0000)

It's not just mobility. Champions tend not to pay enough in raw damage for utility in general.

A random example would be , who doesn't have that much lower damage/ratios than a normal mage, but has much more utility and zone control.

The problem is that it's hard to put an accurate value on something like utility. Raw damage is much easier to balance than utility or mobility.

Lissandra has almost the exact same damage values as Ori and brings just as much if not more utility than Ori does.

Honestly, utility is fine. mobility is fine. Both isn't.

Liss shouldn't deal more damage to Ori. Ori shouldnt deal more damage than Brand which shouldnt deal more damage than Morde.

Klatn YeloxFeb 16, 20151 votes

A big issue to consider is that using auto attacks with Orianna in between Qs adds 15% AP ratio per hit. Also, Orianna has much shorter cooldown on the Q, and a very high ratio. Orianna merely has better AP scalings than Lissandra. Also, with her abilities to buff allies, and the teamfight wrecking ult, Orianna has a bit more utility than Lissandra. Lissandra has mobility as well though, and pays for it by not having quite so much utility or damage.

Envy SinFeb 18, 20151 votes

And higher mana costs. This is a good example of a balanced mobile mage.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 15, 20153 votes

your logic is so flawed it's not even funny. What you are pretty much saying is that if you have mobility then you are not allowed to do anything else, that is flawed logic

stuartk11Feb 15, 20159 votes

{quoted}

** your logic is so flawed** it's not even funny. What you are pretty much saying is that if you have mobility then you are not allowed to do anything else, that is flawed logic

Kinda iterative there. But I don't think you read the post. Mobile champions should deal less damage then immobile champions. It's called compromise. Don't know where you got the "not allowed to do anything else" part from.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Kinda iterative there. But I don't think you read the post. Mobile champions should deal less damage then immobile champions. It's called compromise. Don't know where you got the "not allowed to do anything else" part from.

he said that Leblanc should deal less damage than Brand... She is an assassin she is supposed to delete people and he is saying that immobile champions should do anything a mobile champion does but better. Mobile champions do pay for their mobility in terms of tankyness, need to land very specific skillshots, damage, CC, utility all in different quantities. Not a "X champion is immobile and Y is mobile so X should be able to do everything Y does but better except the being mobile part" that is called a flawed logic

stuartk11Feb 15, 20158 votes

{quoted}

he said that Leblanc should deal less damage than Brand... She is an assassin she is supposed to delete people and he is saying that immobile champions should do anything a mobile champion does but better. Mobile champions do pay for their mobility in terms of tankyness, need to land very specific skillshots, damage, CC, utility all in different quantities. Not a "X champion is immobile and Y is mobile so X should be able to do everything Y does but better except the being mobile part" that is called a flawed logic

You say that compromise is tankiness. Brand is definitely not Tanky either. He also has no mobility, so he's easily assassinated, ganked and can't play too safe (not mention mana issues, but that's irrelevant here). Mobility should have a compromise, and currently it doesn't have any.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You say that compromise is tankiness. Brand is definitely not Tanky either. He also has no mobility, so he's easily assassinated, ganked and can't play too safe (not mention mana issues, but that's irrelevant here). Mobility should have a compromise, and currently it doesn't have any.

cute but that's more of an issue with Brand being pointless to use even when immobile champions were the go to thing in the mid lane. Brand needs changes done to him for him to be of any actual use. Mobile champions like i have said do compromise for their mobility, sorry you cannot beat a mobile champion with a skillshot reliant champion whose damage isn't all that great anyways and has a pretty bad ult

stuartk11Feb 15, 201512 votes

{quoted}

cute but that's more of an issue with Brand being pointless to use even when immobile champions were the go to thing in the mid lane. Brand needs changes done to him for him to be of any actual use. Mobile champions like i have said do compromise for their mobility, sorry you cannot beat a mobile champion with a skillshot reliant champion whose damage isn't all that great anyways and has a pretty bad ult

Again, you have not said what the compromise is. You just want to talk down to people for their opinions. Childish manner too. You've even said that Brand is pointless, but mobile champions should still be better than what those immobile champions do. The hypocrisy of that reply is mind-boggling.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Again, you have not said what the compromise is. You just want to talk down to people for their opinions. Childish manner too. You've even said that Brand is pointless, but mobile champions should still be better than what those immobile champions do. The hypocrisy of that reply is mind-boggling.

then please tell me what champions you want me to tell you what their compromise is. All champions don't pay the same way way for their mobility, an Ahri is not going to pay for her mobility the same way someone like Fizz does. Nor does someone like Jinx pay for her mobility the same way someone like Graves does. I said that Brand was pointless even when immobile champions were the main thing that went to mid lane. That should tell you something about Brand that even when Immobile champions were the go to mid laners he still was rarely picked, if at all. Brand needs changes done TO HIM in because as he is right now you will need to pump so many numbers on him in order for him to be of any use

stuartk11Feb 15, 20155 votes

{quoted}

then please tell me what champions you want me to tell you what their compromise is. All champions don't pay the same way way for their mobility, an Ahri is not going to pay for her mobility the same way someone like Fizz does. Nor does someone like Jinx pay for her mobility the same way someone like Graves does. I said that Brand was pointless even when immobile champions were the main thing that went to mid lane. That should tell you something about Brand that even when Immobile champions were the go to mid laners he still was rarely picked, if at all. Brand needs changes done TO HIM in because as he is right now you will need to pump so many numbers on him in order for him to be of any use

Very well, let's start with champions who pay for it in different ways.

LeBlanc, Fizz, Kalista and Kassadin.

I feel that these champions pay for their mobility in different ways, but if the current state of the game has shown us anything, it's that champions who are considered to be the "worst" are all lacking reliable mobility. Movement speed buffs are generally much worse than dashes.

Envy SinFeb 15, 201515 votes

Actually brand used to be quiet popular. Before the release of 20,000 Mobile champions all with HARD CC. Soft CC, High damage.

The issue is Mobile champions get EVERYTHING a immobile one has. And then some.

If they made from trade offs, Then i'm sure champions like Anivia Annie Darius Yorick Shyvana Would see a lot more play. But as it is, Ahri Can do anything Can but better. She's safer as well. If you can't even see that then there's no point in talking to you. Brand has to land his Q to get his stun. Ahri has to land E to get charm.

The SoulforgedFeb 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Envy Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qi2LqiBq,comment-id=000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-15T12:48:07.137+0000)

Actually brand used to be quiet popular. Before the release of 20,000 Mobile champions all with HARD CC. Soft CC, High damage.

The issue is Mobile champions get EVERYTHING a immobile one has. And then some.

If they made from trade offs, Then i'm sure champions like Would see a lot more play. But as it is, Can do anything Can but better. She's safer as well. If you can't even see that then there's no point in talking to you. Brand has to land his Q to get his stun. Ahri has to land E to get charm.

To be fair, brand has a lot more teamfight dmg than ahri.

Envy SinFeb 15, 20152 votes

Only if you're dumb enough to stand inside his piller with his passive on you, Which in most cases on only the person he stuns. 99% of the time when you ult people are smart enough to move away from each other.

Though i will agree in a best case scenario he does have more damage.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20153 votes

Not really, since 3-4 enemies will have a dash to reposition and avoid Brand's W which is his main damage tool (you'll need that W to hit your R properly in most teamfights). Meanwhile Ahri only needs to hit Q (which is pretty easy), since W and R are self-directed and she will dash to get in position to quickly use E, then do the rest of her combo and dash away to secure she doesn't take any risks. Even if all this fails, she has a third dash to secure her again.

The SoulforgedFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not really, since 3-4 enemies will have a dash to reposition and avoid Brand's W which is his main damage tool (you'll need that W to hit your R properly in most teamfights). Meanwhile Ahri only needs to hit Q (which is pretty easy), since W and R are self-directed and she will dash to get in position to quickly use E, then do the rest of her combo and dash away to secure she doesn't take any risks. Even if all this fails, she has a third dash to secure her again.

Notice how I said teamfight. His 1v1 potential is however not as amazing, but his ult in a teamfight shreds people normally.

Kitten of EvilFeb 16, 20152 votes

Brand used to be quite popular when his spell ranges were higher. I remember those days -- I mained him back then for a glorious few weeks.

Orianna was extremely popular when her spell ranges were higher, too.

Hell, the only reason I love playing Anivia so much is that she has a couple very long-range spells (1100 on Q, 615 to cast R but R actually extends over 400 units, so effective 1015). Same with Lux.

Honestly, regarding immobile mages, all you have to do is ensure that immobile mages have longer spell ranges, while mobile mages can have more MS but shorter ranges.

SmokingPuffinFeb 15, 20153 votes

Mobility should have a compromise, and currently it doesn't have any.

True on some champions, not on others. There are tons of fair mobility champs in the game.

We just see the same dozen overtuned champs over and over. This gives the impression that mobility is a problem, but really we have a much larger Jarvan problem than a general mobility problem.

KaisadiIIaFeb 15, 20152 votes

Jarvan is precisely one of the most balanced mobile champions in this game. He has a fair mobility you can expect and counteract before he actually does it, also, it's not that easy to escape since it requires 1-1.5 seconds to put his flag and dash. Meanwhile Lee Sin will just kick you, dash to a ward and dash again to a jungle creep. Zed will spam a shadow and, even if you stun him, he wil press WWWWWWWWWW until he gets rid of the stun for 0.1 sec and insta-teleports to his shadow. LeBlanc... well, we all know how ridiculously hard is that champion to kill even when she has 1,500 HP late game.