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When a non fan or main of a Champion reworks them it is incredibly apparent and vice versa

Kingsgrave··193 votes·9,288 views

Examples of clear Mains reworking them:

Gangplank Ashe Darius Fiora MasterYi Heimerdinger Soraka

Their core identities only got better and even tho they got weaker in some aspects their overall gameplay got drastically improved and they are way more fun to play for not just mains but everyone

Examples when someone with no understanding reworks a Champion:

Garen Mordekaiser Skarner Veigar Karma Cassiopeia Sona

Why is this difference apparent and important?

When a Champion is reworked by a fan/main they are made a better and healthier version of what mains/fans already saw. They became what they really should have been from the start!

GP mains loved Ravenous and Shiv to clear waves and collect the big bucks. They doubled down on that with a new gameplay idea that didn't feel forced, it felt natural. "Oh yeah GP would always do that right on woo!"

Ashe would totally fire mad arrows at you and have consistent damage, that makes sense as an Ashe player wow cool woo

When a Champion is reworked by a non fan/main they are turned into a new gameplay idea that feels forced specifically onto them** just for the sake of arbitrary variety/diversity**

Garen spins slightly more and has % health damage for some reason? ok i guess?

Mordekaiser loses his identity as a spammy mage bruiser and becomes an AD Tanky Melee ADC replacement...uh what?

Skarner is known as the Kidnapping Racecar scorpion so obviously just make him Dominion and remove a lot of his MS mechanics. To quote Scarra's keyboard: QQQQQQQQQ

Skarner is not a Juggernaut like Morde/Darius/Garen, he was always played for being a stabby racecar

Mordekaiser is not a carry nor is he a duo laner and it doesn't make much sense for him to do that, but his R stealing ghosts of monsters MAKES SO MUCH SENSE WOW PLS RIOT

Garen does more than just go "hey its a villain i do not like," you probably needed to give him something similar to Darius passive new mechanic.

Random idea for Garen since he seems the most off on these reworks

Give him new resource called DEMACIA that generates by taking damage, and he can empower any of his abilities by using his new found patriotism. New effect on Q? you got it bb. New effect on W? wow cool bruh. New effect on E? spintowin.jpeg. Possibly even allow him to spend the points on his R to get the Anti-Villainy effect.

Anyway, this was me rambling about clear misunderstandings by Riot on how these 3 champs work or why they are loved by fans/mains. It's so weird because they nailed Darius, Fiora and GP so perfectly. So odd. What happened Riot?

196 Comments

LankPants64 votes

Examples when someone with no understanding reworks a Champion:

Add Karma and Sona to that list. Neither of these champs players actually wanted the changes and the Sona changes didn't actually fix anything.

-Edit: Thank you good sir :)

Saixos62 votes

You forgot Cassiopeia

WhatHitYou3 votes

I thought cass mains moved on a long time ago. When it became clear that her dot playstyle is effectively dead.

junglerboy1618 votes

Moved on only applies if your definition of moving on is giving up hope of a response after being ignored for months.

I don't even like Cass (older current design) but it hurts to see that kind of brazen disregard for a player base.

Slaaneshine4 votes

The current design for Cass is pretty brutal though. It's honestly pretty good beyond her close range, but if she does get you in her grasp she can easily wombo combo someone to death or out of lane. A lot of these changes people are complaining about aren't final yet, and obviously many, if not all, haven't even experienced them yet. So who knows what's really bad or good yet? Play them first before making judgments.

I played Magic: The Gathering for years, and the one great life lesson I take from that game is that the cards that look the most meh are indeed the best cards by miles. They just need the right and perfect hand.

OneDrunkGuy7 votes

{quoted}

The current design for Cass is pretty brutal though. It's honestly pretty good beyond her close range, but if she does get you in her grasp she can easily wombo combo someone to death or out of lane. A lot of these changes people are complaining about aren't final yet, and obviously many, if not all, haven't even experienced them yet. So who knows what's really bad or good yet? Play them first before making judgments.

I played Magic: The Gathering for years, and the one great life lesson I take from that game is that the cards that look the most meh are indeed the best cards by miles. They just need the right and perfect hand.

I'm sorry is it snowing in your magical christmas land right now?

Ipols5 votes

Sona core identity is still the same in my opinion. karma isn't karma anymore

Adrian Umbra8 votes

Sona's core identity is the same, but her power tanked hard because visibility and "muh snuggle zones." They took pretty much all of that subtle under-the-radar power she had and deleted it. Then thought a bit of flash would make up for the loss. Karma, I'll leave that for people to argue over. I like the new Karma personally and think she's got a much more defined identity than old Karma, plus she's much easier to balance.

But if you don't think Karma is Karma any more, what in the world is Mordekaiser going to be from now on? Definitely not Morde...

Ipols3 votes

I can't play karma and I don't know how she works, but she's really different so I can get why old karma fans complain about her, I disagreed with LankyPants about complaining about Sona since she is almost the same and what you do with her is almost identical. Morde isn't Morde anymore, He's going to be forced into duo lane and will have to build mixed bruised instead of beeing full dmg with spellvamp. I'm lucky that I'm not a morde main or I'd be really really Pissed. I hope Riot doesn't notice Zac soon.

BTW: they are nerfing tank items again and again and again untill we come back to League of Assassins we had months ago

Adrian Umbra7 votes

Sona is everything she was except worse. They ran with the same identity, but sucked the power out of it, which made her feel weak, unfun to play, and easy to shut down. As old Sona, I would be in the middle of a teamfight buffing my allies, directing the temp of a fight, and laughing as they dive for me because I didn't have to sit on the front line and could comfortably stay safely by my backline. As new Sona, I'm desperately dashing around fights, trying to catch allies in my "snuggle zones", feeling almost all my power go to waste, ignored by my friends and picked off by my enemies the moment I try to buff someone who's actually involved in a fight. New Sona is the same idea, different execution and feels so much worse. Thus, same identity, less power.

And as a Morde main, I AM really pissed. For the first time since SION, I can really call that this isn't the same champ anymore. I liked my solo lane AP burst mage, please don't give me a duo lane AD bruiser.

LycopolisKing14 votes

I completely agree. Oh, and MissFortune. What did she get again?

And I have to again agree with the OP on Ashe 's rework. I nearly cried when I her changes came through for the first time; her identity was completely solidified and she was made more viable in all levels of play. One of the best reworks to date, in my opinion.

SeductiveGrandpa9 votes

Alistar Hi, Ashe! Shoots Arrow Alistar Wait..I cant moo-ve that fast... Arrow Spam Alistar HELPPPp, PERMA SLOWWWS

Nameless Voice19 votes

Am I the only one who played both old and new Karma and much prefers her after her rework?

The Soulforged16 votes

Just because you like a poke mage more than a very unique support doesn't mean the rework was a success. Certain people might like the reworked version, but a rework is supposed to keep the essence of the champion while changing parts of them. They had a minor Karma rework but riot decided to get rid of it and do a full blown relaunch without keeping much of her.

The Bearded Bard4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYeqlThF,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2015-08-05T15:13:50.951+0000)

Am I the only one who played both old and new Karma and much prefers her after her rework?

Right there with you. Honestly just like with all reworks, most of the people that played the champion before still enjoy the champion now. But you get those couple of players that hate the rework and endlessly bitch about it and the forums only see those so they jump on the bandwagon and now you've got people that never even played prereworked champions complaining about how much the rework ruined that champion.

Not saying all reworks are good, I personally hated the Maokai one, but for the most part the champion is improved or is relatively the same, if not toned down a little or buffed a bit because they were too strong or weak before. As of right now, two of my old mains have been reworked, Maokai and Karma. I absolutely hate the maokai rework and now barely play him, but I love the Karma rework and she's now probably surpassed Ziggs as my best champion. On top of that there's been a few reworks of champions I barely played before that I now play, Viegar, Kat, Nidalee, as well as champion reworks of champions I played and still play that I feel relatively the same about now as I did then, namely Trundle and Skarner.

Fear Popo4 votes

Exactly, with a lot of the "failed reworks", its a case of a few people endlessly circle-jerk raging about it. That being said, I do sometimes miss the old karma.

Silents4292 votes

Sona might have pissed off some mains but she is in a healthier spot with a 4.59% play rate with a 52% winrate.

So if her rework were a failure she would be seeing much less play and lower winrate.

Karma sort of fits this criteria but she never really was popular before her last set of changes anyway so she didn't get much worse or better.

LankPants1 votes

Sona might have pissed off some mains but she is in a healthier spot with a 4.59% play rate with a 52% winrate.

Her play rate was above 4.59% pre rework. Even when you factor in an additional 2% or so for the inflated number of champs there are now Sona's still less popular now than she was pre rework.

She's also substantially less powerful and overall feels worse to play.

So if her rework were a failure she would be seeing much less play and lower winrate.

For a time after Cassio's reworks she had a super high play rate and a 50%> win rate. That doesn't make it a successful rework.

Silents4292 votes

It doesn't make it a failure either. Sona got nerfed and needed it, time to move on.

Her playrate hasn't recovered because of a warped view people get everytime a patch touches their precious champion, they think she is unplayable now and so other people think so as well, once she hits a popularity spikes she will keep a lot of that popularity when people realize she is fine.

Stiv123427 votes

Maybe theyre just guessing, you know, trying random changes with 50% success rate.

Kingsgrave23 votes

{quoted}

Maybe theyre just guessing, you know, trying random changes with 50% success rate.

I would rather they not do that. I think a lot of people would. Leave the random new stuff for new champs.

Anidan2 votes

Dear god, don't encourage them to do that.. how else do you explain the grab-bag of mechanics and passives that are recent CertainlyT champions?!

junglerboy167 votes

{quoted}

Dear god, don't encourage them to do that.. how else do you explain the grab-bag of mechanics and passives that are recent CertainlyT champions?!

Fixed.

Altricad18 votes

Pls Remove Darius from that list. They're absolutely gutting him just like Garen

.75 second delay on his Q?? Riven will laugh her ass off before using her e to get away from it. 10% increased healing?? Wtf, is he renekton now?? Darius's weakness is his supposed lack of sustain, changing him into this is a useless gimmick

His bleed is now physical, so people can stack armor and laugh at his passive in lane

His W got a HUGE nerf, attack speed dependent champions now have no reason to be scared of engaging darius and might as well go for pre-6 trades and win Tryndamere Irelia Aatrox Jax Olaf

HIS ULTI GOT NERFED ( no increased ratio, just overall decreased damage)

and for what? A passive that gives you bonus AD upon applying max stacks? It was already hard to apply 5 stacks on an enemy in lane unless they were utterly braindead.

His "e" has now been bugfixed so, good luck catching that annoying Quinn or Riven

And darius now applies max stacks once he hits blood rage but GOOD LUCK DOING THAT. His passive no longer grants movement speed, so "Become one with the KITE!" as slows wreck your face

Oh, armor items are getting nerfed too so R.I.P

Darius is NOT being reworked by a main, if he was they wouldn't pigeonhole into a "cleanup master!" while leaving him absolutely useless in lane.

Sire Hippington12 votes

not to mention his gutted Attack speed, Base Attack Speed reduced to 0.625 from 0.679 Attack Speed per level reduced to 1% from 4%, so AS at 18 is now 0.7375 rather than 1.168...he didn't only loose the AS slow on W, it even turned back on him!

junglerboy164 votes

This change is probably the biggest nerf he's received (more than any of the other nerfs)

Matezoide4 votes

Yes, i thought it was a Darius buff too, but after actually looking at him, he is getting nerfed hard. Didnt they also lower his W damage? Pretty sure his Q is a lot weaker now as well.

All four of these already weak champions are getting nerfed, with one of them being forced into a completely different lane that will make your team rage at you.

TheFancySkeleton9 votes

And to think Garen and Darius were Riven's weakpoints.... Time to learn Renekton.

ihaveapotion14 votes

new riven skin coming, arcade riven. does it now make sense why all top laners except riven are being nerfed?

AnimaticStranger8 votes

While i agree that these champions are in dire need of a reworks, it still feels that only reason for giving them these passives (or in Skarners case giving enemy team also a passive) only so Riot could tell us that they have unique niche in the game.Now when we talk about these passives i think that they shouldn't be a reason for nerfing a champion in such a harsh way (Skarner,Garen) or basically changing their intended role or position (Mordekaiser).

Brotha7 votes

I'm terrified they will one day remove Jayce late game hyper scaling and turn him into a early/mid game bruiser who is pretty useless. When I started this game I would not have believed it.. but after watching Morde turn from a late game ap carry, into a early game ap bruiser, and now a weird adc support... thing..? No champion is truly safe.

Crowe Stalker5 votes

{quoted}

I'm terrified they will one day remove Jayce late game hyper scaling and turn him into a early/mid game bruiser who is pretty useless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4 Jayce literally had his kit reworked so he doesn't even level his Ultimate anymore and instead puts even more points into his abilities which makes him scale harder than anyone. Elise and Nidalee have not seen similar changes despite also having level 1 transform abilities.

straight4free7 votes

I'm actually very interested to see how the Morde changes affect him. I have played Veigar a few times in ranked recently and he is fine, not broken or anything but his stun is still a very potent teamfight ability and deleting squishies is his specialty.

I don't mean to be an optimist (god forbid) but I believe that Riot will make the proper changes with regards to these reworks -- The Garen and Skarner ones seem bad or gimmicky. Again though, I'm very excited to see how Morde plays out.

My problem with it is that he's going to get level 2 first from last hitting minions, but there really isn't much he can do with it. I don't know how good his new W is going to be, but to me it seems like he gets level 2 early and then... the enemy gets level 2 because he didn't have the CC or the ability to engage to make use of his level advantage.

JedenVojak4 votes

{quoted}

I don't mean to be an optimist (god forbid) but I believe that Riot will make the proper changes with regards to these reworkst.

I cannot share your optimism - the Soraka rework happened.

My problem with it is that he's going to get level 2 first from last hitting minions, but there really isn't much he can do with it. I don't know how good his new W is going to be, but to me it seems like he gets level 2 early and then... the enemy gets level 2 because he didn't have the CC or the ability to engage to make use of his level advantage.

My problem is that Morde is supposed to be a 1v5 unstoppable badass and they're turning him into a co-dependent weakling. His Q has no AOE, and you're supposed to multi-hit with it to get your damage off despite the reduction of his move speed. His E does less damage at every stage of the game unless you build AD, and his W DOESN'T FREAKING WORK AT ALL UNLESS HE CHAINS HIMSELF TO AN ALLY.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

I felt the need to drop in to comment on Morde's E. It's NOT weaker in every stage of the game unless you build AD, it's only weaker once you start leveling it. Thanks to the AD scaling, it's perfectly fine to leave it at level 1 and max his Q or W instead, then catch up on levels. If you're building AD, you're actually going to surpass the former levels of damage rather than missing them by about 10-30 damage depending on your level.

My biggest issue thought is that NO ONE asked for this. Nobody but CertainlyT looked at Morde and thought, "Huh, I think he could work really well as a bruiser to replace an ADC with. Oh, and thus he should build AD. Oh, and his Q needs windup time because counterplay. Yeah, that'll fix him."

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Max level, with the increased base AD he gets, Morde loses 9.2 damage on E if not building AD from any source. When getting Dragons (which he obviously benefits from rather heftily), he only loses 4.1 damage.

On top, there is an item that gives a lot of AP, some AD and makes both his autos and his spells sustain him. On top of that, said item gives him a point&click slow, which can be pretty darn deadly if you take the rest of Morde's kit into account. item 3146

Malicious Metal5 votes

Why don't they just hold some campfire sessions with those who actually played said champions a lot so that they can share their opinion and insight on how/what to change? It would be simple, yet effective; preserving the core identity of champions by letting the players influence the changes but also solve the issues they have with the help of the balance team.

But FUCK THAT! We need to butcher some champion identities! R.I.P Mordekaiser :'(

Pengod4 votes

To start, I like what they did with Garen. They added on extra stuff, which is a really interesting interaction with the enemy. A revenge passive? I think that's really cool, I don't understand what is so bad about it.

For Morde, I kinda want to wait and see how this turns out. It's a very interesting change. Bringing in a different tactic for a lane. It may work out, due to a few ADC mids coming out, you can have that Morde with a support. I am skeptical on how it'll work, and I'm not that pleased, but the end result may be good.

For Skarner. I think, again, a really interesting mechanic with that passive. He also still retains his current passive, by placing it into his E. He no longer has to stack it up with 3 abilities. My only issue on him, is the AS removal on his Q...

On Veigar, the only thing they changed was the Q. Which you can now farm 2 minions at the same time. Yes, they nerfed the stun and gave it counter-play, but that's it. How do any of these show that someone who doesn't main them, change them? and pretty sure it's not just one person. Fiora has been talked about for the ultimate change for a while now.

You can't tell if a main changed them or not.

Icestar11862 votes

It's not than Skarner doesn't have to stack his stun. It's that he can't. He no longer has the luxury of changing targets in a teamfight, and once he uses his E, he has to wait a long time to stun anyone again.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Kassadin ?

Rrett4 votes

Rift Stumble

HeadHonchkrow3 votes

Rift Crawl

Ticking Death3 votes

You definitely have a point here. I notice that a lot of work done on Fiora, Darius, and GP is generally more positive for their gameplay and theme.

Honestly, I wish they hadn't touched Fiora's ult. If there were a compromise I could have worked with, it would have been this:

Fiora's ultimate now does less damage overall, but each target that she jumps to will have all their vitals exposed for X seconds. Whenever Fiora jumps to a target with her ultimate and damages them while their vitals are exposed, she will hit one vital randomly. When an enemy has all their vitals hit, or if Fiora kills an enemy while their vitals exposed in this way, a healing zone will appear that heals Fiora and her allies for XXXX health over X seconds. With a total of 5 jumps, she would expose the vitals on the first jump, then hit the rest over her successive jumps on a single target. This would give her exceptional dueling power, but reduce her effectiveness in a team fight unless she targeted someone with very low health.

I could also do with a nerf to the healing if that compromise existed. I love everything else about her kit, though.

CharbertoLamonzo2 votes

as if the adc's didnt have it hard enough now they'll have re-work morde coming at them with new buffed defense items....cause thats what we needed...more tank meta! snooze. about to be done with this game.

OnanThaMan24 votes

Yes since all the armor items are getting nerfed it'll be harder than ever for the adc to take on the tanks. Hope you like the assassin or bruiser meta better.

Kuma No Neko11 votes

If you think there's a tank meta I'm assuming you haven't played the game in the past few months

Sniper 01 votes

Actually I don't agree with the veigar. They added more counter play to his kit and compensated him with being able to double stack on q. The mord update is probably by far the worst update. "Hey lets force a solo lane beast with no cc into a duo lane"

I guess they're trying to diversify bot lane but really... couldn't you just design new ap champions rather than destroying the identity of another. I would like to see this in bot lane. I feel like this is the wrong way to go about it.

I feel like the garen update is gonna be pretty strong after they tweak the numbers. I feel like they neutered his other skills a little too much but it was a step in the right direction. Just overstepped a bit. :P

I don't play skarner enough to have any say on him. It looks like an interesting new mechanic I guess. xD

I was on the fence about the darius update but after watching gameplay I really like the q change. Though I think the handle should still cause a bleed. but I guess with the windup you have an easier time aiming it now. Still with the damage cut, even with the new 10% hp on blade hit, I think the hilt should still cause a bleed. I'm not on the pbe so I can't really test him myself... hehe

Champion Skin3 votes

The problem with Veigar changes was that they really changed the way to play veigar... he went from a mid game focused burst mage who actually had some lane presence (Q was mainly used for harass and lane dominance) To a mage who most sits back and pokes and just farms until late game

Sniper 01 votes

I can see that but he can still burst if the enemy mispositions.

Hard Penetrator3 votes

Actually they made him terribly unreliable. Q is a skillshot so you can miss it, W won't land without stun and E isn't instant so you can't use it to defend yourself from assassins.

Veigar isn't weak but he is far from being good. Viktor can 1 shot ppl just as good while being more mobile and tanky. Azir don't give a shit about zhonias, qss and got fantastic tools for engage and disengage, Viegar got... good ult.

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