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Proving Lee Sin is numerically Overpowered by comparing him to every other Warrior Enchant Jungler

Kingsgrave··127 votes·8,143 views

TLDR AT BOTTOM AND LOTS OF MATH WARNING SO MUCH MATH WOW

item 3707 built on AD Junglers that usually build almost full tank after this item

The following is each AD Jungler that fits this criteria listed in order of their damage increases from this item

MonkeyKing 240.75 more damage with abilities (80% Bonus AD + 455% Total AD Ratios) Pantheon 225 more damage with abilities (500% Bonus AD Ratios) LeeSin 216 more damage with abilities (480% Bonus AD Ratios) Khazix 171 more damage with abilities (380% Bonus AD Ratios) RekSai 166.5 more damage with abilities (130% Bonus AD + 240% Total AD Ratios) Nocturne 141.75 more damage with abilities (195% Bonus AD + 120% Total AD Ratios) Vi 141.75 more damage with abilities (300% Bonus AD + 15% Total AD Ratios) JarvanIV 121.5 more damage with abilities (270% Bonus AD Ratios) Sion 117 more damage with abilities (80% Bonus AD + 180% Total AD Ratios)

ViLeeSin both have health damage, but the latter doesn't have to work for it and has higher ratios MonkeyKing Pantheon LeeSin all have high ratios and damage potential, but the former 2 have to channel their abilities to deal that damage

Lets now look at base damages of those AD ratio scaling abilities for the top 3

MonkeyKing 1190 (Q/E/R) LeeSin 1140 (Q/E/R) Pantheon 545 (Q/E)

Now lets look at the top 2 in terms of base damage ability potential in 1 second

MonkeyKing 590 LeeSin 1140

In 2 seconds

MonkeyKing 790 LeeSin 1140

In 3 seconds

MonkeyKing 990 LeeSin 1140

In 4 seconds

MonkeyKing 1190 LeeSin 1140

So this calls for a direct ability damage comparison between MonkeyKing and LeeSin since they deal the most damage with both ratios and bases in an AoE

Q: MonkeyKing 9/8/7/6/5 CD, 150(+10% Total AD) as an enhanced auto against one target Q: LeeSin 11/10/9/8/7 CD, 170(+90% Bonus AD) + 170(+90% Bonus AD)(+8% Target's Missing Health) to one target

Lee's Q is higher range, lower CD for most of the game since Wukong maxes Q second and deals FAR more damage than Wu's Q

E: MonkeyKing 8 CD, 240(+80% Bonus AD) Physical Damage to 3 targets maximum but is a gap closer E: LeeSin 10 CD, 200(+100% Bonus AD) Magic Damage to any targets around him

Wu's E potentially does more damage and gives him AS, but Lee gets AS every time he uses an ability technically. Wu's E gives him a gap closer that he didn't have, but its targeted and not freeform like Lee's Q and W. Still giving the win to Lee here.

R: MonkeyKing 120/105/90 CD, 200(+110% Total AD) Physical Damage per second over 4 seconds for a maximum of 800(+440% Total AD) R: LeeSin 90/75/60 CD, 600(+200% Bonus AD) Physical Damage to all targets hit

Both provide a knockup, both provide high AoE physical damage. Lee R is always a lower CD by far than Wu's R. Wu can deal more damage than Lee's but he has to hit a Champion for at least 2.5 seconds to deal more damage than his R.

TLDR: LeeSin abilities are faster, lower CD, easier and better than any of his competitors like MonkeyKing and Pantheon that have to extend and stay in an area for an extended period in order to out damage him

110 Comments

Budupops97 votes

great, now riot is gonna nerf wukong

youngjake9320 votes

{quoted}

great, now riot is gonna nerf wukong

No, they are nerfing Warrior enchant. Don't you know? Riot gives widespread nerfs that hurt lower tier junglers the most instead of direct nerfs to Lee Sin's competition. Gotta retain deniability.

FYI I don't actually buy into the Lee Sin conspiracy theory, but it is funny that they actually are nerfing Warrior enchant.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

I'm starting to wonder if duo support would work just as well as solo top /w jungler as long as you get the golem and... umm... tree golem (don't remember its name :p) when they pop up so their jungle doesn't steal them.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

nope, they said they are happy with him and won't change him anymore... ;__; (r.i.p. MonkeyKing: I thought you already died, guess that was your decoy)

Icy Auron10 votes

Not only is this true, but this is only taking into account damage, which many people don't even say is the worst part of Lee's kit. His ult's AD ratio alone is a joke.

utDOOM9 votes

Things to consider:

  • Basic attack calculations are vital to your point (I know other people have said this). Just ability calculations would favor certain champions over others.

  • Rek Sai's Q damage always includes her auto damage. Ignoring basic attacks, is ignoring a good chunk of her damage.

  • Noct will out-duel Lee if he spellshields Lee's Q; his passive also involves a basic attack

  • Vi's E and Wukong's Q involve a basic attack and the ability to reset their auto timer

  • Vi's W, Wukong's E, and Lee's passive give attack speed. (Only important in sustained fights)

  • Wukong's Q shreds armor

  • Base damages should be looked at for all the champions, not just the 3 with the highest ratios

I might be missing some stuff, but you need to consider at least some of these points, if you want to use numbers as proof of how OP Lee is. Otherwise this just shows who has higher ratios (which we can already see).

Also, Wukong's R knocks enemies up, guaranteeing at least 2 free hits, and Pantheon's W stuns, guaranteeing his entire combo for free.

I'm not saying Lee is fine, but your calculations don't prove hes broken unless you consider variables.

EDIT: One more thing. Wukong's R deals damage every second.

Knightsundere8 votes

I think Lee would be just fine with removal of the 8% missing health on his Q and a nerf to his R cooldown. At that point, he can no longer use his ult as an effective means of assassination without risking not having it for another 140/120/105 seconds (or whatever a better CD would be). Then remove the missing health on his Q and he's forced to rely on his QE combo, making him resemble a Triforce Alistar of sorts.

I'm fine with his mobility as long as he has less burst as a bruiser. If they want to keep those high ratios, push him out of the jungle and make him a midlane utility carry.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I think Lee would be just fine with removal of the 8% missing health on his Q and a nerf to his R cooldown. At that point, he can no longer use his ult as an effective means of assassination without risking not having it for another 140/120/105 seconds (or whatever a better CD would be). Then remove the missing health on his Q and he's forced to rely on his QE combo, making him resemble a Triforce Alistar of sorts.

I'm fine with his mobility as long as he has less burst as a bruiser. If they want to keep those high ratios, push him out of the jungle and make him a midlane utility carry.

Actually, pushing it to 120/105/90 like Wukong would be pretty fair. 60 seconds is really crazy for an ultimate with that much power.

Shifting the power of Q1 to Q2 and removing the missing health damage seems pretty fair as well.

Ser Garland6 votes

LeeSin So what you're saying is, I have to nerf Wukong next...

SionideCN6 votes

Did you take into account Vi's armor shred?

Wu's armor shred? well?

Zyras Banana5 votes

lmao

Kingsgrave47 votes

{quoted}

lmao

I don't really care about Lee's playstyle or mobility or whatever but the fact that he can deal more damage than literally everyone in a 1-3 second window is hilarious to me.

OJ19133 votes

{quoted}

I don't really care about Lee's playstyle or mobility or whatever but the fact that he can deal more damage than literally everyone in a 1-3 second window is hilarious to me.

you forgot to count autoattacks when counting the damage of wukong vs lee

since wu can't autoattack during ult, lee should actually come out ahead in that comparison

Kingsgrave6 votes

{quoted}

you forgot to count autoattacks when counting the damage of wukong vs lee

since wu can't autoattack during ult, lee should actually come out ahead in that comparison

I was focusing entirely on abilities.

OJ1917 votes

{quoted}

I was focusing entirely on abilities.

yes but because you're doing a direct comparison and wukong's ability has the specific caveat that he cannot autoattack during it, you have to add in lee's autoattack damage or it's an inaccurate comparison.

In most other cases yeah you can ignore autoattacks, though obviously on-hits need to be taken into account like siphoning strike or lich bane, since they naturally have an autoattack directly tied to them.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

yes but because you're doing a direct comparison and wukong's ability has the specific caveat that he cannot autoattack during it, you have to add in lee's autoattack damage or it's an inaccurate comparison.

In most other cases yeah you can ignore autoattacks, though obviously on-hits need to be taken into account like siphoning strike or lich bane, since they naturally have an autoattack directly tied to them.

Well its basically 4 autoattacks on the target + 40% additional total AD damage in an AoE but none of the On Hits are applied during Wukong's Ultimate.

So obviously if you count autoattacks Lee's damage is even higher in comparison.

But I didn't count the autoattack damage for Pantheon's E in comparison to literally everyone nor did I count the autoattacks during the ability cast times and usages for every single ability.

"Sion can't use autos during his Q therefore I have to specifically count every single auto damage from every single other character based on their AS"

No.

OJ1912 votes

{quoted}

Well its basically 4 autoattacks on the target + 40% additional total AD damage in an AoE but none of the On Hits are applied during Wukong's Ultimate.

So honestly if you count autoattacks Lee's damage is even higher in comparison.

.... that's why I'm saying you have to count the autoattacks? Because you directly compared wukong over 4 seconds who cannot autoattack during that time, to lee over 4 seconds who CAN autoattack during that time, then just completely discounted lee autoattacking.

edit: there is actually not one single champion on that list where you cannot take into account at least 1-2 autoattacks when making comparisons lol. khazix passive, vi W, pantheon E, nocturne passive, rek'sai Q, jarvan passive, sion Q

Kingsgrave4 votes

{quoted}

.... that's why I'm saying you have to count the autoattacks? Because you directly compared wukong over 4 seconds who cannot autoattack during that time, to lee over 4 seconds who CAN autoattack during that time, then just completely discounted lee autoattacking.

ABILITY damage.

The point of the thread was to directly compare ABILITY only damage amplified by Warrior Enchant of Lee vs Many other Warrior Enchant characters.

Bears Dont Care9 votes

{quoted}

yes but because you're doing a direct comparison and wukong's ability has the specific caveat that he cannot autoattack during it, you have to add in lee's autoattack damage or it's an inaccurate comparison.

In most other cases yeah you can ignore autoattacks, though obviously on-hits need to be taken into account like siphoning strike or lich bane, since they naturally have an autoattack directly tied to them.

Indeed, in which case, Lee Sin would have the most damage. IIRC< his ratios and base damage are higher than talon and zed.

Kingsgrave6 votes

{quoted}

Indeed, in which case, Lee Sin would have the most damage. IIRC< his ratios and base damage are higher than talon and zed.

Talon vs LeeSin = 400% + 25% Amplification vs 480% Bonus AD Ratios Talon vs LeeSin = 1000 base + 25% Amplification vs 1140 base damage

Zed vs LeeSin = 1140 + 480% Bonus AD Zed vs LeeSin = 736 + 100% Total AD + 240% Bonus AD + 25% Bonus AD + 20/35/50% of Damage dealt in a small window

Its close but I think that Talon and Zed are still higher

UdoIkOSc4u5 votes

{quoted}

Talon vs LeeSin = 400% + 25% Amplification vs 480% Bonus AD Ratios Talon vs LeeSin = 1000 base + 25% Amplification vs 1140 base damage

Zed vs LeeSin = 1140 + 480% Bonus AD Zed vs LeeSin = 736 + 100% Total AD + 240% Bonus AD + 25% Bonus AD + 20/35/50% of Damage dealt in a small window

Its close but I think that Talon and Zed are still higher

but lee free win has way more mobility than them

Auz the Ripper4 votes

You forgot talon's passive only applies to his Autoattacks

It doesn't even amp Noxian diplomacy, only the AA it's attached to

So his abilities only get amped by 15%

Meaning a perfect Talon combo will only deal 1150+460% of his bonus AD

10 more base damage and 20% less bonus AD ratio than Lee sin

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Such bias.

Wu's E potentially does more damage and gives him AS, but Lee gets AS every time he uses an ability technically. Wu's E gives him a gap closer that he didn't have, but its targeted and not freeform like Lee's Q and W. Still giving the win to Lee here.

No way. Consider this thought experiment: swap the abilities. If Lee gets Wukong E, he becomes the best champion in the game by a wide margin. Three gap closers?

Both provide a knockup, both provide high AoE physical damage. Lee R is always a lower CD by far than Wu's R. Wu can deal more damage than Lee's but he has to hit a Champion for at least 2.5 seconds to deal more damage than his R.

Are you really trying to sell me that Lee R is comparable to Wukong R?

Kingsgrave18 votes

{quoted}

Such bias.

You're crazy. Consider this thought experiment: swap the abilities. If Lee gets Wukong E, he becomes the best champion in the game by a wide margin. Three gap closers?

Are you really trying to sell me that Lee R is comparable to Wukong R?

Thats why Lee wins. He doesn't lose damage when he uses his mobility. Wukong does. He has a risk to it that Lee doesn't have.

I compared damage potential to Lee and Wukong. They both can knockup an entire team, Lee's knockup is longer duration than Wukong's iirc.

Wu's R can do more damage, but it takes far longer than Lee's to deal full damage. He has to sit on every single champion he wants to beat Lee damage wise in, for at least 3 seconds or so. Even with the knockup or whatever, Lee's R is far better on a much lower CD.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

You're letting your personal feelings about Lee's general strength color your analysis of individual skills. Lee isn't strong because E and R. Actually those buttons are pretty weak, and certainly suck compared to Wukong E and R.

Again, do the same thought experiment. Lee with Wukong R is the best champion in the game by a wide margin. Wukong with Lee R sucks.

Kingsgrave10 votes

{quoted}

You're letting your personal feelings about Lee's general strength color your analysis of individual skills. Lee isn't strong because E and R. Actually those buttons are pretty weak, and certainly suck compared to Wukong E and R.

Again, do the same thought experiment. Lee with Wukong R is the best champion in the game by a wide margin. Wukong with Lee R sucks.

Just switching the skills doesn't prove they are good or aren't good. Its not the specific skills, its how they work together.

I like Lee and I like playing him and I don't really care if he is buffed or nerfed. I just don't understand why his damage is so high when he doesn't even have to work for it like Wukong or Pantheon.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Just switching the skills doesn't prove they are good or aren't good. Its not the specific skills, its how they work together.

Are you really going to sell me on alleged synergy with Lee E and the rest of his kit? It's just a vanilla slow button.

Wukong E and R are straight up better buttons. Better by enough that this conversation is silly.

I like Lee and I like playing him and I don't really care if he is buffed or nerfed. I just don't understand why his damage is so high when he doesn't even have to work for it like Wukong or Pantheon.

The main reason Lee has big damage scaling is because he's a terrible teamfighter without them. Even with them he's not very good in fights.

This isn't where the problem with Lee is. The problem with Lee is that he's a giant bag of utility that does absolutely everything you want a jungler to do. He doesn't need number tweaks -- we've tried that at least 5 times and it never works. He needs real weaknesses injected into his kit.

Kingsgrave12 votes

{quoted}

Are you really going to sell me on alleged synergy with Lee E and the rest of his kit? It's just a vanilla slow button.

Wukong E and R are straight up better buttons. Better by enough that this conversation is silly.

The main reason Lee has big damage scaling is because he's a terrible teamfighter without them. Even with them he's not very good in fights.

This isn't where the problem with Lee is. The problem with Lee is that he's a giant bag of utility that does absolutely everything you want a jungler to do. He doesn't need number tweaks -- we've tried that at least 5 times and it never works. He needs real weaknesses injected into his kit.

His weakness should be that he falls off late and still provides heavily utility. Why does he need higher base damages than literally everyone else to do this?

SmokingPuffin4 votes

His weakness should be that he falls off late

That's a bad choice of weakness for a jungler, at least in competitive play. We know from experience that nobody cares -- season 2 Alistar, season 3 Elise, season 4 Lee. Get your team ahead in the early game, it doesn't matter if you fall off. Teams will select early game junglers with the ability to pressure lanes hard.

Kingsgrave9 votes

{quoted}

That's a bad choice of weakness for a jungler, at least in competitive play. We know from experience that nobody cares -- season 2 Alistar, season 3 Elise, season 4 Lee. Get your team ahead in the early game, it doesn't matter if you fall off. Teams will select early game junglers with the ability to pressure lanes hard.

He should fall off in damage, which he doesn't currently when every single jungler of his type builds Warrior Enchant + Full Tank. He currently doesn't really fall off honestly with 480% Bonus AD Ratios and 1140 base damage.

Is Lee a Tank or a Bruiser or an Assassin? He does all 3 things really well. What is he supposed to do? What is not supposed to do?

SmokingPuffin3 votes

He should fall off in damage, which he doesn't currently when every single jungler of his type builds Warrior Enchant + Full Tank. He currently doesn't really fall off honestly with 480% Bonus AD Ratios and 1140 base damage.

Again, this is not a good choice of weakness for a jungler. It can work for laners, but jungling is all about the early game snowball. Designing a jungler who is strong early and weak late just gives your balance team an impossible problem to solve.

Is Lee a Tank or a Bruiser or an Assassin? He does all 3 things really well. What is he supposed to do? What is not supposed to do?

This is pretty much hitting on the design problem. Lee isn't designed to have strengths and weaknesses. He's not great at anything, but he's good at everything, Many fighter kits from that era have this problem.

The solution is a rework to give him meaningful strengths and weaknesses. Myself, I would like to make him more interested in actually using his autoattacks. Take damage off abilities, add damage to passive, focus Lee on being a bruiser with good sustained damage and high utility. The game doesn't have enough high utility bruiser types anyway, so it seems a good niche.

Kingsgrave8 votes

{quoted}

Again, this is not a good choice of weakness for a jungler. It can work for laners, but jungling is all about the early game snowball. Designing a jungler who is strong early and weak late just gives your balance team an impossible problem to solve.

This is pretty much hitting on the design problem. Lee isn't designed to have strengths and weaknesses. He's not great at anything, but he's good at everything, Many fighter kits from that era have this problem.

The solution is a rework to give him meaningful strengths and weaknesses. Myself, I would like to make him more interested in actually using his autoattacks. Take damage off abilities, add damage to passive, focus Lee on being a bruiser with good sustained damage and high utility. The game doesn't have enough high utility bruiser types anyway, so it seems a good niche.

Pantheon is an early game aggressive ganking jungler that falls off late. He does high damage but not instantly, has minimal utility and provides damage in only really 2 skills that are both low range. He is easy to balance this way.

Lee needs less sustain and the shield removed and his R damage reduced, but maybe the CD reduced so its always useful for the utility it brings.

SmokingPuffin6 votes

Pantheon is an early game aggressive ganking jungler that falls off late. He does high damage but not instantly, has minimal utility and provides damage in only really 2 skills that are both low range. He is easy to balance this way.

Pantheon hasn't been at all easy to balance. He's either an OP jungler or he's out of the meta. His core play patterns lack counterplay, and he has really limited ability to outplay anyone. Super not recommended game design here.

Lee needs less sustain and the shield removed and his R damage reduced, but maybe the CD reduced so its always useful for the utility it brings.

They could nerf Lee sustain and remove the shield. I'm not convinced that really makes people happier about playing against Lee though. Also, I think it makes the W button feel pretty lame.

I think the thing that people hate about playing against Lee is how on the one hand he can burst them down, and on the other he's really safe. Would recommend looking at either one of those characteristics to make him feel better.

Kingsgrave5 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon hasn't been at all easy to balance. He's either an OP jungler or he's out of the meta. His core play patterns lack counterplay, and he has really limited ability to outplay anyone. Super not recommended game design here.

They could nerf Lee sustain and remove the shield. I'm not convinced that really makes people happier about playing against Lee though. Also, I think it makes the W button feel pretty lame.

I think the thing that people hate about playing against Lee is how on the one hand he can burst them down, and on the other he's really safe. Would recommend looking at either one of those characteristics to make him feel better.

You shouldn't balance based on happiness when playing against a character because thats only like a 4th of the picture.

Honestly Pantheon was only ever OP because of Dragon being coded weird and Lizard Item just being overpowered. It had nothing to do with his kit.

RisottoNero4 votes

Pantheon has been nerfed and changed so many times in LoL history because he's a pain in the ass to balance with his stun, burst and ult. They have changed what damage skill he max first, nerfed the stun, nerfed the ult, finally expelled from mid lane, didn't like him in the jungle either and got nerfed again. He hasn't been easy to balance at all.

Kobila20002 votes

Out of the meta? He has a very good pick rate. He's picked for his good early game and he DOES fall off once teamfights come. He's kind of like Malzahar in that regard. Just because something is not fotm or broken atm doesn't meant it's "out of the meta".

SmokingPuffin1 votes

So far this year, Pantheon has been picked twice in competitive play across NA, EU, CN, and KR. Dude is not in the meta.

Presumably, when you're talking about pick rate, you're talking about solo queue. My response there is simple: who cares? The game shouldn't be balanced around random silver players overextending into easymode Pantheon ganks, but instead balanced around reasonably correct play.

Kobila20002 votes

I was talking about his pick rate in Diamond, 16-17%.

LeeDark2 votes

I keep wondering at what point people will realize you are just arguing whatever, whenever, wherever just to argue, and stop feeding the troll.

Baron of Bread3 votes

We could do a similar experiment with many skills. A great example would be Olaf ult on Yi. Just because that would be broken as heck doesn't mean that Olaf is better than Yi.

I would also argue that an invisible Wukong suddenly kicking you into his team with no warning would be pretty broken.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Certainly, this technique doesn't work when there are particularly strong synergies between buttons across champions. It's a good point, and worth keeping in mind.

However, Wukong R doesn't have particular synergy with Lee Sin's kit. Actually, Wukong has an easier time getting into good position to use it than Lee does. Meanwhile, even though Wukong does have a decent amount of synergy with Lee R, there's absolutely no way he'd prefer to have Lee's R over his own.

Taken together, this is a pretty easy argument for Wukong R being the stronger button.

Baron of Bread2 votes

I will admit that Wukong's ult may be stronger than Lee's, but I feel it is less all-purpose.

The cooldown and utility differences are pretty big. Wu can't split you from your team or knock you away from the squishy you were trying to kill, but Lee is less likely to be able to knock up everyone. I feel Lee's ult is just another example of him being a strong Jack-of-all-Trades, while Wu's is fairly limited in it's scope of usability.

There are some situations where I would rather have the Wu ult, but there are at least as many where I would rather have Lee's.

FoggyPaws2 votes

TFW Udyr Udyr isn't on that list.

Kingsgrave7 votes

{quoted}

TFW Udyr Udyr isn't on that list.

Udyr always gets Devourer

More or less same reason I didn't include XinZhao MasterYi Aatrox

Thumpin2 votes

I'd still rather play vs. a Lee Sin than a Jarvan or Vi.

Evil Jester2 votes

DPS alone doesn't make a champion OP.

destiny fan2 votes

Wu'kong's knockup is far safer and better, provides movespeed to the champion and also deals a lot of damage over time, applies black cleaver stacks and its easier to use than lee's R

Wu'kong's Q has armour shred on it, did you factor it in your damage math? it also applies spellblade like trinity force or iceborn gauntlet

Pantheon has more map control than lee, he can countergank-jungle from pretty much anywhere

Pantheon has a reliable point and click stun

Pantheon can safely towerdive with his passive

3 different champions

3 different kits

3 different strenghts

AdorablSlaughter2 votes

Honestly, I want Lee to look like Evelynn in terms of power (and certainly winrate). Until then, I will continue to not give a shit if he's "OP" or not, he's worse than fucking Teemo.

Acidic Puddle1 votes

Based on what you said, wukong is the second best jungler. Not correct. Junglers are good based on their utility in abilities. This is why J4 is so good. Your math just does not hold up dude, sorry.

Kingsgrave9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Acidic Puddle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qaFkoYo4,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-02-20T19:07:48.777+0000)

Based on what you said, wukong is the second best jungler. Not correct. Junglers are good based on their utility in abilities. This is why J4 is so good. Your math just does not hold up dude, sorry.

NUMERICALLY Overpowered

Not saying any of these characters are better or worse than eachother in terms of overall game balance, just that Lee's damage is 3rd highest and fastest in a 3-4 second window in general.

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