"Playing games of League of Legends should be the unequivocal best way for a player to improve"

Kingsgrave··148 votes·5,181 views

This is not true for literally any sport, game or otherwise that is competitive. I don't think Riot understands what they are saying here. Let me tell you all the many ways they are vastly incorrect here.

Specific section I'm replying to is from here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/riot-games/announcements/riot-pls

Yes playing League will help you get better, but that alone will not unless you just happen to be a god of analyzing your mistakes, or like most you have friends to buffer off of. I started stagnating once I didn't have friends to play with on a regular basis, so I have a lot of trouble improving. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case for a lot of people.

So I guess that Riot thinks it's illogical for literally every other competitive game, video game or otherwise, has things in place to allow you to practice outside of just playing the game.

Street Fighter has a training mode with techniques and specific scenarios to help you perfect one specific technique. As soon as you are done you immediately go into a live match and try it out against a real opponent without controlled variables. You continue to do this until you reach the benchmarks you want, and beyond. Every single Fighting Game pro or casual plays Training and then goes into a Live match if they want to understand the game better. I fail to see how Street Fighter is/or should be any different than League/

Basketball and Gridiron/Football and Soccer/Football all have their players regardless of skill level constantly practice drills to perfect technique and mentality. Just outright playing a lot of games alone won't always improve your understanding of the game or your technique/skill, if anything it could be worse for you since you will just embed your errors. Every single Sport has casuals and pros training and learning techniques with the help of others in an IRL sandbox mode to help them perfect technique and understand the game better, I fail to see how this is/or should be any different than League.

"We want to make sure we’re clear: playing games of League of Legends should be the unequivocal best way for a player to improve. While there are very real skills one can develop in a hyperbolic time chamber, we never want that to be an expectation added onto an already high barrier to entry"

First off: The Hyperbolic Time Chamber outright vastly improved the Z Fighters power levels because they worked in pairs. This led to Goku/Gohan discovering how to perform SS2 and better understand their power and how to perfect their methods. Even earlier in the series before the HBTC, Gohan, an incredibly weak kid with a pathetic understanding of fighting, trained with Piccolo, an experienced fighter, and BOTH OF THEM IMPROVED AT A RIDICULOUS RATE AND LEARNED NEW WAYS OF LOOKING AT FIGHTING.

Did the Rioter who wrote this look at DBZ and go "yeah training is way too hard for anyone that isn't them and there is no way it has ever helped weaker people" I just don't get it.

Secondly: The idea that a training mode will make the game more difficult to get into is absurd. How would the ability to learn techniques with volunteer player coaches and higher Rank friends outside of overly stressful 5v5 pvp matches make the game harder or the barrier to entry greater? I really don't understand that.

For me and many others that have played Chess competitively, it was stressful trying to learn it just thru trial and error. We felt like we weren't going anywhere unless we just happened to be the best at analyzing why we were losing. When we finally just picked up books and techniques on various openings and strats we improved FAR faster than ever and we were far less stressed while learning more beyond that, which made the game more enjoyable and us better players overall and teachers for future players.

Third and Finally: "The expectation" to train is going to be natural and inherent to literally every single competitive game. Odds are if they are playing normals they won't think about training mode at all even if it's available. However, they will see it and try it and perhaps they will get decent enough that they decide to go into Ranked and try out their new found skills. If someone plays Ranked, the odds are high that they will see Training as natural as Breathing and look at every lost game and focus on what they needed to fix, and go fix it with a friend or a coach/mentor. This idea that a training mode would scare people and put pressure on them is ridiculous.

If you don't want to make a Sandbox mode that is 100% fine, just tell us you don't want to make it yet and it's not a priority. Just don't lie to us with explanations you haven't really thought about or use terms/references you don't understand.

69 Comments

Syndrarella46 votes

[deleted]

TraakSC9 votes

People in Cali are having the same connectivity issues as everyone else.

46104328_DEL1 votes

{quoted}

People in Cali are having the same connectivity issues as everyone else.

Oh, Cali, no wonder you're such a childish prick. (This is a joke, I'm sure there are plenty of Cali people who are great guys and gals..just not this shit.)

TraakSC7 votes

What? I live in NM. I am just saying people from California are having connection issues as everyone else based on their tracert's they've posted.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

This ^ there are a lot of people who have issues here in CA. I used to have an average of 100-150 ping over here in southern CA, but it's fixed drastically over the past year. My ping is always 41 now.. so, I'm pretty sure Riot is doing something right. They're slowly stabilizing ping over the U.S.

Zenthon Prime2 votes

I live in central Cali, and can confirm that at least out here we get the same BS that everyone else gets. I might get 54 ping with no issues on a good day (not the 20 ping nonsense everyone says, although my ping used to be at 42 in 2012), but lagspikes are common and sometimes the game just decides to settle at 120 or even 200 ping for a whole match.

So yeah, outside of LA, that perfect ping you hear about? Utter nonsense.

macromite1 votes

I'm lucky to get 400 on a good day :|

LaowPing2 votes

I deal with 80 on a good day. 100 on a bad one and that's without lag spikes. Here in Georgia, our ping is twice yours on average. If I get a lag spike I jump to 200-400 ping. Yours might have problems too but it's nothing as bad as what we have.

Joe Dredd3 votes

i live in ga. ping is always 77. it's not ever as bad as people make it out to be.

Delioth1 votes

Just remember... twice the ping is still measured in the span of a few hundredths of a second. (0.04 seconds from 40 ping to 80 ping.)

To put it in perspective, the average blink of an eye is 300-400 milliseconds.

Saying the difference in ping from 100 to 50 is bad is like saying someone's lagging because their eyes needed to blink at the wrong time and gave them an effective ping of 400 for a moment. Except worse, because one's a difference of 0.05 seconds and the other is 0.4 seconds.

LaowPing1 votes

It still matters. In a game like league of legends where things can happen very quickly and you need every frame. In fighting games, a 19 frame overhead and a 24 frame overhead is a big difference. Pros have said anything above 40 is almost unplayable and people who have experienced both have said that 90 feels laggy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3f1nsb/low_ping_and_good_computer_makes_a_giant/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3es8mz/to_the_people_who_play_at_90_ping/

Penta Penguin1 votes

Ask Riot if their shareholders decided that latency should be this way

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Not really.

You guys don't have an average of 100 - 150, or even 200 ping.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

False: I live in california and I get 100-200 ping sometimes :^)

woobee10 votes

I wasn't expecting the an analyzation of the hype ebola mine chamber. Hyperglycemic crime chamber. Hypebonics Rhine chamber.

Zhire1 votes

hyperbolic time chamber

woobee10 votes

Hypertonic lion tamer.

ThatAutofillSupp1 votes

mechtronic dime changer

DarthSpectrum8 votes

The tutorial teaches players close to absolutely nothing.

I find that sometimes I need to show my friends basic laning mechanics such as freezing the wave, bouncing off the enemy turret, ward locations, etc. even though they are already level 30.

The general advice of "stay behind the minions" is often counter-intuitive against champions such as Yasuo or Jax, who will benefit from you fighting in minions.

Riot's argument that players will learn from osmosis from better players is moot, because new players aren't even taught the basic skills to playing the game.

windwolf7771 votes

The general advice of "stay behind the minions" is often counter-intuitive against champions such as Yasuo or Jax, who will benefit from you fighting in minions.

You think they care about anything but our ranged ADC overlords and LeeSin?

Leetri1 votes

They'd basically have to do a separate tutorial with and against every champion, because you don't play the same against everyone. And there's matchups too, you don't play say Diana vs Zed the same as Heimerdinger vs Zed. You don't ward the same areas against an Evelynn as against a Warwick. And on top of that, if you need tutorials for every mechanic there is in the game, you're looking at hours upon hours of just tutorial. No one is going to go through that, and then it's a waste of resources on Riot's part. I agree that the tutorial could be better and have more general tips, but you can't expect the tutorial to teach everyone everything about the game or go into specifics. The majority of the players learnt how to play from just playing the game. TF2's tutorial is just "these buttons make you move, this is how you shoot, this is how you swap weapons" and no one complains about that, even though it skips over 99% of the mechanics in the game.

Adam D Smith 6 votes

I want to be able to practice dropping a ward over dragonpit wall and into the tribush.

Because my name is Scarra.

46104328_DEL5 votes

I agree. When me and the wife want to test out items or skills (such as Nidalees god awful nerf), we have to go to murder bridge, stand back to back, and kill minions til 18. It's....just stupid and inconvenient.

Vistha Kai5 votes

Don't worry.

RiotLyte, Inc. knows better than the community what they want and what is best for them.

Who the hell are "Banksy & ScuttleChris" anyway?

Valor Bot4 votes

The fact that they're scrapping the idea of a sandbox mode makes me hope that we will at least get some sort of training mode further down the line, where we are given tasks to practice and complete such as last hitting, juking, etc.

TraakSC1 votes

Isn't that what bot or custom games are for?

Kingsgrave20 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that what bot or custom games are for?

People want a specialized mode for it with controlled variables like almost every other competitive Esport game. Look at all the things Street Fighter has for you to train with that League doesn't. Even Smash Brothers has a better training/custom than Riot's.

TraakSC3 votes

Can you give me an example? Like are you saying there should be a map where you just have constant waves of minions to last hit? I can't think of anything that can't be practiced in custom games.

Kingsgrave15 votes

{quoted}

Can you give me an example? Like are you saying there should be a map where you just have constant waves of minions to last hit? I can't think of anything that can't be practiced in custom games.

Controlled variables that don't force you to wait 40 minutes of mindless farming to try it out for a brief window of time then being forced to reset.

Champs that run around and fire skillshots constantly at random intervals that is automated.

Etc.,

Being able to resume a game with the exact same variables as before for scrims.

Customs is like an annoying 2/10 of what a Sandbox Training mode could be.

AkabaneKun25 votes

{quoted}

Can you give me an example? Like are you saying there should be a map where you just have constant waves of minions to last hit? I can't think of anything that can't be practiced in custom games.

We should have a mode that lets us have the lvls we want max gold to buy wtv we want reset CD's and so on, so ppl can train whatever they want instantly instead of doing a custom game and having to farm/waiting for CD's. Any pvp game worth a shit has this, and the most played pvp game doesn't... It's actually pretty shameful for riot, dunno why they keep pushing it away when they dedicate so much time and $ on esports.

46104328_DEL10 votes

{quoted}

Can you give me an example? Like are you saying there should be a map where you just have constant waves of minions to last hit? I can't think of anything that can't be practiced in custom games.

HoTS has the perfect example. A Howling abyss style map where you can click to spawn minions, choose if you have CDR, and can level with a click of a button. Just add 0 cost items, and you're golden.

Saianna1 votes

the only tiny minor weakness of HOTS training mode is exactly the same hero enemy (or am i wrong and you can change him?)

Cause learning how to set your trap combos work differently depeding if you face melee or ranged etc

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

Practice flashing over walls. You can't practice something very well if you can only do it once every five minutes...

Chatillon1 votes

okay, but thing is, not shipping rito or nuthin', but the game is totally different than sandbox. In the heat of the moment is when you need to practice. Or else you will fail under pressure.

Agent20902 votes

And a sandbox mode in which you can reset cooldowns would allow you to familiarize yourself with the full range of flash and which walls can be flashed over from which distance. So, in the heat of the moment, you aren't blindly attempting a flash and failing anyway.

A sandbox mode that allows more than one player can let you simulate the heat of the moment.

All of which could happen without having to wait 5 minutes for flash to cool down for each practice run.

Kingsgrave4 votes

{quoted}

The fact that they're scrapping the idea of a sandbox mode makes me hope that we will at least get some sort of training mode further down the line, where we are given tasks to practice and complete such as last hitting, juking, etc.

Their reasoning for being against Sandbox mode means they are also against a Training mode since that's exactly what people want a Sandbox mode to be for.

Valor Bot1 votes

I understand that Riot doesn't want to give us players one more thing to be toxic about in League of Legends ("this adc is n00b says he doesn't know how to kite but doesn't want to practice in training mode pls report") but honestly, I think it would benefit us more than it could potentially harm us.

Riot stated recently that their design philosophy with newer Champions was to give them fun and unique playstyles without regards to their trolling potential (Bard, Tahm Kench, etc.), their reasoning being that trolls will troll no matter what Champion they are given. I think that same argument works here. Toxic players will be toxic no matter what; and besides, those people who DON'T want to use the training mode can simply opt NOT to and practice their mechanics in normals/co-op vs. AI/customs, as those who have done it before us have.

Sandbox or not, I'd really like a game mode where we can practice individual mechanics with more ease -- toxic players be damned, there's a mute button for a reason.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well toxic players will likely be toxic anyways

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

If you don't want to make a Sandbox mode that is 100% fine, just tell us you don't want to make it yet and it's not a priority. Just don't lie to us with explanations you haven't really thought about or use terms/references you don't understand.

just this.

Dr Poro3 votes

100% agree+. I understand Riot's point of view and I understand why they're against it, but I think they're overestimating the downsides compared to the upsides. If it's too much trouble to make/too ballasting for the servers, I understand.

But saying that it's better if it doesn't exist... I'm sorry. I know that climbing to a higher tier, specifically diamond+, would become a lot harder because other people will be training in sandbox mode which forces you to do the same if you want to be on the same level of competitiveness.

However, 95% of the players are not this competitive!!! You can already do custom games, which is a pretty good mode (sandbox-like) for CSing. Yet, how many silvers have you seen doing this? I'm plat 1, omw to Diamond V and I have only done this for maybe one hour ever and that was a while ago.

Sure, with the addition of a real sandbox mode, this type of training would be promoted and a lot more people will do this. However, after a few months, you'll see the number of players training there drop once again to only the more competitive type of people, or some who seek to escape ELO hell.

In addition to training, sandbox mode (or completely customizable games) can create a LOT of unofficial funmodes aswell or just troll with your friends by flashing all over the map and playing tag. Going one step further, you could even allow players to make their own maps (like skillmaps). Yes, that doesn't seem to really fit LoL, but a lot of games where it doesn't seem to fit have it and they're REALLY popular. It also invites another type of players to this community who don't like to play regular PvP matches.

TraakSC2 votes

You lost me at the DBZ reference. Playing is the best way to get better but that doesn't mean you can't improve from using other resources.

Kingsgrave16 votes

{quoted}

You lost me at the DBZ reference. Playing is the best way to get better but that doesn't mean you can't improve from using other resources.

I explored the DBZ reference because they used it first, and incorrectly.

KilljoyX1 votes

{quoted}

I explored the DBZ reference because they used it first, and incorrectly.

This is the part that irritates me the most. DBZ's HBTC is literally proof that you get better by training in an isolated environment. Saying "We don't want a HBTC" is basically saying "We want most of the player base to suck. It makes it easier for the balance team."

The worst part of this is that for mid, top, and bot the lane phase portion of the HBTC exists in customs. You can lane up to 7-10 minutes in a HBTC in a custom if you want to try it. Junglers can't neither can you HBTC team fights because of the way the game functions right now. You cannot HBTC builds and have everyone start at a gold break point. It's boarder line insane. Riot is really lucky that League stands on its own merits just by being the most popular moba because they make horrible business choices.

Spider Chief2 votes

I really like your second point. If people aren't being forced to play the practice mode, what harm is going to come to them? They can logically deduce "oh I can casually play the game for fun while others try to be the best".

Again, Riot feels that it's absolutely necessary to hold our hands through every single bit of the game lol

They have one of the most competitive games on the market right now, but it seems like they forget this fact and do things that hurt those competitive players.

SquishyArchon2 votes

It's almost as if working at Riot has a tangible effect on your cognitive function. I mean how else do you explain literally none of their thousands of employees finding something wrong with that viewpoint before they went public with it.

Test your offices for radon and asbestos poisoning, Rito.

Tusutaki2 votes

We want to make sure we’re clear: playing games of League of Legends should be the unequivocal best way for a player to improve. While there are very real skills one can develop in a hyperbolic time chamber, we never want that to be an expectation added onto an already high barrier to entry. On an individual level, we know this isn’t always true – some just want a space to practice flashing over walls without having to wait at least 3.6 minutes in between – but when that benefit is weighed against the risk of Sandbox mode ‘grinding’ becoming an expectation, we just can’t accept the tradeoff. We never want to see a day when a player wants to improve at League and their first obligation is to hop into a Sandbox. We do want to support your ability to grow in mastery, and there may be other avenues to do so, but not this.

As a man with autism who didnt speak my first word until I was 8, first coherent sentence until I was 13.. This is a pretty god damn retarded statement I ever heard in existence.

But to make his point null and void.

but when that benefit is weighed against the risk of Sandbox mode ‘grinding’ becoming an expectation, we just can’t accept the tradeoff. We never want to see a day when a player wants to improve at League and their first obligation is to hop into a Sandbox.

Then whats the point of making players play normals until they're level 30 to play ranked if you dont want them to feel obligated to play in a mode :^)

Kei1432 votes

Maybe there's just a difference in definition between the developers and players.

True, sand box mode does mean total customization, which is how DoTA first developed as a mode off warcraft. But I think the majority of the player base just want to practice within an environment that is not fast paced and stress free. I want to be able to practice like mechanics wall flashes, wall wards (hi scarra ward), get a feel of level 3 ultimates (hi2u max range bard ult) or to get a feel of mid / late game item builds (like "how well does sated devourer work with ... teemo ..." or just how well a off-meta build work).

Sorry Rito, I'm just a bronzie and I don't have the insight like the pros to see whether something is good. I want to be able to feel it out. I do want to get better, and I don't mind grinding just to test things and get better mechanically.

As a bronzie, its hard to analyze things in the middle of a game where everything is so fast and I can't keep up. Heck, I can't even CS properly, it takes me 20 minutes to get an IE just to see whether that is feasible on a certain champ named Zed, I really don't want to take it to a match making game, where I'll suck even more and take 30 minutes just to get an IE, just to find out it doesn't work and in the meantime, I'll have put 4 of my teammates in negative experience.

In fact, it took me around 40 minutes just to find out that Randium Omen's passive stacks with Frozen heart and another AS debuff (Hello Malphite), and that Frozen mallet stacks with MS debuffs (hello again Malphite). I don't have the mechanical skill to look at all those things in the middle of a heated live battle, but ever since I did that, I know when to pick Malphite (hello Yi / Vayne) and my win rate has Sky rocketed on Malphite. I would love it so much more just to be able to test that in 4 minutes rather than 40 minutes.

I really don't need to change skins / maps / skills / and customize everything in game like a real sand box mode does. I just want 80% CDR, +$10,000, spawn at certain levels, and maybe ... fast spawnning jungle / neutral objectives.

Taarki1 votes

Playing games of league won't help as much as a sandbox mode on stuff like last hitting. However, playing games of league helps WAY MORE with stuff like lane matchups and team synergy between champions.

Champion Skin3 votes

Sandbox mode is also good for practicing difficult wall jumps or combos (more control over cooldowns less pointless waiting??) or jungle optimization in clearing (being able to reset levels and or jungle camps?)

Taarki1 votes

That would certainly be a thing that sandbox mode is better at allowing players to do. Rito why no Taric VU?

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