Let's stop romantacizing Season 2's balance

HateDaddy··80 votes·4,104 views

To say Season 2 was the best season is subjective. It depends on who you ask. I'd personally say season 3 was the best season, but again, that's nothing a fact - it's just a matter of opinion. And any opinion regarding that is totally fine because you are entitled to your own opinion.

But you know what is a fact? Balance is significantly better now than it was in season 2. We often blow out of proportion how great season 2 was because of our nostalgia and the fact that season 2 is when this games popularity really took it up to a new threshold and climaxed. That was an awesome feeling, being a part of gaming history was an awesome and satisfying feeling. But let's stop pretending that season 2 was somehow this magical land of balance where everyone was happy. Let me remind you of a few things..

•Supports legitimately got no gold.

No, seriously. As a support, you bought Philo Stone and HoG and wards with mobis/oracles. That was it. You didn't get any other items. You were considered fed as a support if you managed to complete aegis. You absolutely had to take exhaust, heal or clairvoyance. Any offense summoner was frowned upon. You were absolutely 110% the ADCs bitch with no room to play on your own. While that legacy still exists today, that's largely changed where supports can often have AP (or even AD) carries plugged into it and carry games. This was literally impossible in season 2.

•Junglers were extremely gold starved

Seriously, the jungle of them was extremely harsh. Once again, HoG and farming as little as possible and ganking. You basically played Maokai, Lee Sin, Nunu, Shyvanna, Mundo or Udyr. You legitimately couldn't play anything else or you'd get invaded, die once and be 3-4 levels behind the rest of the game. It was way more feast or famine, to the extreme opposite of what you have no where dying early as a jungler isn't that punishing. Back then, if you died once early as a jungler, your game was over.

•Guys like this were legit nearly 100% banned: Malphite Kassadin

Malphite was legitimately unkillable to an ADC, even with LW he could shrug off those pesky ADCs and murder them. Armor stacking was ridiculous in season 2, anything could stack armor and Ben successful. But it still had some drawbacks because armor stacking left you vulnerable to AP damage. So this balance was decent but Malphite was an exception because of his old W and natural synergy with armor/anti AD items (FH and old Randuins).

If I need to explain s2 Kassadin, you probably didn't play this game in s2.

•Top lane was the Olaf vs Jax vs Irelia featuring Rumble show

Sure, you could play other stuff but if one of the above 3 got picked, you were at a serve disadvantage. Tank tops weren't really a thing other than Maokai. AP tops for nerfed into the ground and FoN existed so double AP was dangerous to run by the end of the season. But at the beginning of the season, double AP was OP and had to be nerfed into the ground. You weren't from one extreme to another. This was common in s2.

•The first ADC to get GA won.

Seriously, it's that simple. ADCs decided the game. You either picked Ez, Corki or Graves. You could not play anything else. You would lose. And whichever one got GA first, they win. And if you did by chance pick something else like Kog, well have fun if you don't beat Kogs team by 20 minutes because he was going to penta kill. But that usually didn't happen.

•Feast and famine gameplay was really the basis of s2.

Season 1 and beta had extremely unhealthy elements like manaburn and minion denial (Gangplank) but most of that was cleaned up by season2. But S2 itself was still extremely feast or famine. If you fell behind back then, you stayed behind pretty far unless you got bailed out. This is only true now because games end so quickly and snowballing is meta because lethality is OP. But that will be balanced and games will feel reasonable again. But in season 2, the games were longer but it was often a tail of one team starving another team to death. And the game hasn't reached that extreme since.

•AD casters were god awful

Not only did they suck, but they had almost no itemization. And because of this, Riot to basically overtune their ratios to ridiculous levels just so they could compete. This is why the BC preseason 3 meta was so extreme because of AD casters being so bad they had to have their numbers overtuned as hell just to function. This was the most severe case of feast or famine. And once you bought a chainvest, you basically ignored AD casters for the rest of the game. There were a few exceptions but this was the general rule.

I could keep going and the legacy of some of these mechanics still exist today but it's not nearly as extreme. Balance and understanding of balance is so much better today than it used to be. Liking and enjoying s2 more is fine, I feel the same way. But the game is by far more balanced now than it used to be.

125 Comments

Sahn Uzal28 votes

I assume you're talking about Rubick's thread on hot?

As he mentioned, Season 2 was not exactly flawless either, but the thread does a great job at explaining some of the game's current big issues, with examples that give us a clear view on them because those issues weren't present during Season 2.

Ultimate Deadpoo8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-02-22T16:59:30.455+0000)

I assume you're talking about Rubick's thread on hot?

As he mentioned, Season 2 was not exactly flawless either, but the thread does a great job at explaining some of the game's current big issues, with examples that give us a clear view on them because those issues weren't present during Season 2.

And the post he just made here when he said and I quote, L2p is what I want to say, because you weren't high elo in S2 in response to this thread, and made several references to high elo not having the troubles that the OP of this post mentioned.

Honestly my main problem is that no one bothers to mention all the great things Riot has done this season, like practice tool, replays, Lethality when it wasn't absolutely broken.

Ahristocats11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ultimate Deadpoo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:03:43.234+0000)

And the post he just made here when he said and I quote, L2p is what I want to say, because you weren't high elo in S2 in response to this thread, and made several references to high elo not having the troubles that the OP of this post mentioned.

i can't say anything then, if we take low elo for the view of the game season 2 was unbalanced and league balance probably didn't change if we take low elo

however if you take high elo, the game is unbalanced now, BUT was more balanced before, not perfectly but more balanced, more diversity and more champions included in the meta

[{quoted}](name=Ultimate Deadpoo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:03:43.234+0000) Honestly my main problem is that no one bothers to mention all the great things Riot has done this season, like practice tool, replays, Lethality when it wasn't absolutely broken.

if the thread was about that then yes, i fucking love riot for this, i love the replay and sandbox mode, AND THEY ALSO DELETED DYNAMIC QUEUE but we're talking about balance

Sahn Uzal12 votes

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here bud.

I appreciate the living fuck out of the Practice tool and Replays and absolutely love having them. And I DO give Riot Credit for that, but I also think we need to criticise them on what they are doing Wrong.

Riot can't fix what's broken if they don't get feedback on what is broken.

Ultimate Deadpoo4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:17:52.906+0000)

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here bud.

I appreciate the living fuck out of the Practice tool and Replays and absolutely love having them. And I DO give Riot Credit for that, but I also think we need to criticise them on what they are doing Wrong.

Riot can't fix what's broken if they don't get feedback on what is broken.

You are exactly right. The point I'm making is I feel like we aren't giving Riot enough positive feedback, we as a community (and as a collective human race) focus far too much on the negative. I mean if Riot just looked at the boards for how they were doing as a company, they'd never see any positive feedback, just boatloads of hate.

Yes I will criticize riot on how turrets seem to be made of wet tissue paper, yes I will criticize Riot on making lethality broken, but I will give them positive feedback and stuff like plants, the changes to dragon, Lethality when it wasn't broken, the changes to Rift Herald, the changes to Rengar (I main him, please don't kill me for that) and Ivern.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

I like your way of thinking.

Yes, we should tell Riot what's wrong with the game, but come on, we already know how to do that.

What we need to do is to tell Riot what they did right, and appreciate what they do.

Balance is essential. Shen

øHaruø17 votes

Nice try Riot Employee. But this season is complete shit.

HateDaddy13 votes

{quoted}

Nice try Riot Employee. But this season is complete shit.

then quit

Ahristocats14 votes

so this is your answer?

the season is shit, but instead of showing the problems and showing how it was before we have to quit

i mean i already did it, but that doesn't stop me from doing the first option

Ultimate Deadpoo4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:18:30.647+0000)

so this is your answer?

the season is shit, but instead of showing the problems and showing how it was before we have to quit

i mean i already did it, but that doesn't stop me from doing the first option

No, what I'm saying is instead of focusing on the past and how it was so much better, give Riot actual ideas on how to make the game, as it is now, better. If your only way to make the game better is to revert it back to how it was back in the day, your just unwilling to accept the changes Riot has made.

If that's the case, I'd rather you quit, because you are contributing nothing to the community.

Ahristocats10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ultimate Deadpoo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:24:04.691+0000)

No, what I'm saying is instead of focusing on the past

you don't understand, i'm not focused on the past

AS I SAID RIOT DID SOME GOOD STUFF SINCE SEASON 2 LIKE UPGRADING BORING GAMEPLAYS IE SION GANGPLANK

but they also did terrible decisions, and here i'm thinking about items and they fucked up the game somehow i don't know how but they made teamfights finished in 10 sec, and snowballing real in every game without comebacks except if the enemy team played it dumbly

sobi9992 votes

{quoted}

Nice try Riot Employee. But this season is complete shit.

I thought the same :D Great minds think alike or shall i say suspicious minds.

doublelift fg17 votes

it's subjective

yet you try to convince people that it wasn't better

hint: it was better indeed

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-22T16:58:54.826+0000)

it's subjective

yet you try to convince people that it wasn't better

hint: it was better indeed

Balance is much better now. Like most people, you're equating your experience to balance and those aren't the same things. Riot has become infinitely better at balance their game now.

jaymc11306 votes

{quoted}

Balance is much better now. Like most people, you're equating your experience to balance and those aren't the same things. Riot has become infinitely better at balance their game now.

Infinitely better than zero skill at balance still leaves us pretty far from skill crafted and intelligently designed balance though.

Lots of good points in this whole thread and some interesting discussion. The one thing I think can be said with absolute certainty though is that you don't get credit as a company for producing a shitty product, fixing it slowly over time to improve it, then spend the last two seasons completely undoing every change that improved the state of gameplay, and doing so in the face of millions of players who tell the company the direction is a mistake and several steps backwards.

You get blame for that as a company, not credit.

My two cents, as I've expressed before several times, is that the changes in the last year and a half have put us right back into the place we were in at the end of season 2 and beginning of season 3 where assassins dominate, the meta is ridiculously snowbally, games are infuriatingly short, and one role has a choke hold on the amount of influence and importance to the team (jungle now, mid lane then) that makes the games even less team oriented and promotes solo carrying. All these things were last true back in season 2 and season 3, making this season the exact same terrible awful thing that no one likes. We knew we didn't like it 5 years ago, we moved away from it, the game grew and improved. Now that we've gone back to that stale stagnant state the game is no longer growing.

Season 5 was hands down the most balanced state of gameplay this game has ever seen and if we want a healthy game moving forward we have to return the game to that state.

I can't give out credit for producing a low quality product and then kinda fixing it and then undoing the fix to make it just as bad as before. Can't get behind that degree of incompetence.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

Infinitely better than zero skill at balance still leaves us pretty far from skill crafted and intelligently designed balance though.

Lots of good points in this whole thread and some interesting discussion. The one thing I think can be said with absolute certainty though is that you don't get credit as a company for producing a shitty product, fixing it slowly over time to improve it, then spend the last two seasons completely undoing every change that improved the state of gameplay, and doing so in the face of millions of players who tell the company the direction is a mistake and several steps backwards.

You get blame for that as a company, not credit.

My two cents, as I've expressed before several times, is that the changes in the last year and a half have put us right back into the place we were in at the end of season 2 and beginning of season 3 where assassins dominate, the meta is ridiculously snowbally, games are infuriatingly short, and one role has a choke hold on the amount of influence and importance to the team (jungle now, mid lane then) that makes the games even less team oriented and promotes solo carrying. All these things were last true back in season 2 and season 3, making this season the exact same terrible awful thing that no one likes. We knew we didn't like it 5 years ago, we moved away from it, the game grew and improved. Now that we've gone back to that stale stagnant state the game is no longer growing.

Season 5 was hands down the most balanced state of gameplay this game has ever seen and if we want a healthy game moving forward we have to return the game to that state.

I can't give out credit for producing a low quality product and then kinda fixing it and then undoing the fix to make it just as bad as before. Can't get behind that degree of incompetence.

That's fine though because your opinion on actual balance isn't based off of your experience. Of course I had more fun back then. I was new to the game, it was easier, that was the time I improved significantly. But it had some awful balancing points, namely gold starved supports and junglers (especially when falling behind). global gold gen was terrible, you had hotfixes galore and the game was still relatively young and Riot was figuring out their keys to balancing. And as a result, because they've become more experienced and they're balancing a significantly more complex game - by the way many of those complexities were added to fix a lot of unhealthy gameplay patterns from s2/s1/beta - with more champions with less binary kits and more depth, of course it's easy to feel like s2 had better balance but that's simply not true. I admit some of my examples are flawed so if anything I should correct that in the OP (but I won't because mobile editing on original posts sucks). But the point I'm really making is this game is balanced at a much better and more consistent rate than it was then, it just doesn't seem that way because league was a much simpler and easier game back then.

And I tend to agree, post cinderhulk nerf and post juggernaut nerf patches were the most balanced patches I ever played on in s5.

jaymc11309 votes

{quoted}

That's fine though because your opinion on actual balance isn't based off of your experience. Of course I had more fun back then. I was new to the game, it was easier, that was the time I improved significantly. But it had some awful balancing points, namely gold starved supports and junglers (especially when falling behind). global gold gen was terrible, you had hotfixes galore and the game was still relatively young and Riot was figuring out their keys to balancing. And as a result, because they've become more experienced and they're balancing a significantly more complex game - by the way many of those complexities were added to fix a lot of unhealthy gameplay patterns from s2/s1/beta - with more champions with less binary kits and more depth, of course it's easy to feel like s2 had better balance but that's simply not true. I admit some of my examples are flawed so if anything I should correct that in the OP (but I won't because mobile editing on original posts sucks). But the point I'm really making is this game is balanced at a much better and more consistent rate than it was then, it just doesn't seem that way because league was a much simpler and easier game back then.

And I tend to agree, post cinderhulk nerf and post juggernaut nerf patches were the most balanced patches I ever played on in s5.

Granted, it was simpler and has become far more complex and I get that the job now is tougher because of that complexity, but I still feel well within my right to criticize a number of the, shall we say "short sighted", changes made in the last 2 years. In fact I feel particularly upset because these exact issues are the types of issues people like you and I posted about becoming a problem down the line more than a year ago and we clearly weren't listened to when we clearly knew better than riot did the implications those changes would have on the game.

That really feels like a personal snub to me and I am quite displeased the company would treat so many players in such awful fashion to the point they despise now a thing they once loved. I mean, we did tell riot that all this was going to happen based on preseason 6 changes and we were ignored.

It's gonna take a whole heck of a lot for riot to gain my trust back, and that's if they ever get it back.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Granted, it was simpler and has become far more complex and I get that the job now is tougher because of that complexity, but I still feel well within my right to criticize a number of the, shall we say "short sighted", changes made in the last 2 years. In fact I feel particularly upset because these exact issues are the types of issues people like you and I posted about becoming a problem down the line more than a year ago and we clearly weren't listened to when we clearly knew better than riot did the implications those changes would have on the game.

That really feels like a personal snub to me and I am quite displeased the company would treat so many players in such awful fashion to the point they despise now a thing they once loved. I mean, we did tell riot that all this was going to happen based on preseason 6 changes and we were ignored.

It's gonna take a whole heck of a lot for riot to gain my trust back, and that's if they ever get it back.

That's fine though, because your point is that recent mistakes have made their balancing and game worse. You're not saying season 2 was all knowledgeable and the pinnacle of game and balance understanding. It wasn't. They are better at it now.

And I'm with you, I don't like recent changes either. But I also realize I'm one of thousands of people that bitch about a plethora of different topics on these boards and they can't realistically sift through all that to see every single statement I make, and that's even assuming I'm right every single time - which I'm most certainly not. I guess the thing I'm gonna say is this: yes it's bad right now and the last year has made question quite a few things but I also realize the last two years, they did class reworks on the two most polarizing classes in the game (ADCs and assassins), so there's going to be quite a bit of dissatisfaction. There's still several things I disagree with though but given their overall track record, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. You'll know I stopped giving them that when I quit (or I died irl).

I like this game and discussing it is nice. But people become too emotional and too biased to see their own bullshit sometimes so even if I'm wrong about a few things here (I most certainly acknowledge I can be), my main focus is challenging the line of thinking that makes people think "fuck you Riot you suck, we know better and this is what's what." Because guess what? if Riot said "ok balance our game then." Those same people would be bitching about it the next day. I'm guilty of this, too. I really am. But people, let's keep some damn perspective and relax. Let's stop allowing this to lead us to such asinine and bizarre conclusions.

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

That's fine though, because your point is that recent mistakes have made their balancing and game worse. You're not saying season 2 was all knowledgeable and the pinnacle of game and balance understanding. It wasn't. They are better at it now.

And I'm with you, I don't like recent changes either. But I also realize I'm one of thousands of people that bitch about a plethora of different topics on these boards and they can't realistically sift through all that to see every single statement I make, and that's even assuming I'm right every single time - which I'm most certainly not. I guess the thing I'm gonna say is this: yes it's bad right now and the last year has made question quite a few things but I also realize the last two years, they did class reworks on the two most polarizing classes in the game (ADCs and assassins), so there's going to be quite a bit of dissatisfaction. There's still several things I disagree with though but given their overall track record, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. You'll know I stopped giving them that when I quit (or I died irl).

I like this game and discussing it is nice. But people become too emotional and too biased to see their own bullshit sometimes so even if I'm wrong about a few things here (I most certainly acknowledge I can be), my main focus is challenging the line of thinking that makes people think "fuck you Riot you suck, we know better and this is what's what." Because guess what? if Riot said "ok balance our game then." Those same people would be bitching about it the next game. I'm guilty of this, too. I really am. But people, let's keep some damn perspective and relax.

I feel ya on this, and I guess for me it probably comes from a place people won't be able to relate to. How many other people who play league worked on the game back when it was a WC3 ums game? Probably not a lot would be my guess, but I was involved in the original creation of this game. It'd be inaccurate to say I had a lot to do with overall design, but I was heavily invested with the balance play group and I did get some experience at managing the health of the game state long before any one at Riot ever did the same task. So yeah, I do sometimes think I could do it better because I've been involved with that process in the past. That's certainly a personal bias I know taints my perspective, but it's still the way I feel.

doublelift fg9 votes

i won't talk about it because it's pointless, i don't see riot going to season 2 again suddenly that would be admitting that they did a trash job for 5 years, so it's pointless for me to talk in this thread i'll just leave

but let me just add something

{quoted}

Balance is much better now

you're so fcking delusional, balance was shit in season 2? i think so i remember some things that made me insane balance is much better now? just return to riot's HQ i don't want someone telling me that the balance of season 7 is better than season 2 when almost every adc were picked in season 2 except during one patch unlike from season 2 to now

it's just insane how people try to defend riot, fact that you shittalk supports in season 2 proves it

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2017-02-22T21:59:43.323+0000)

i won't talk about it because it's pointless, i don't see riot going to season 2 again suddenly that would be admitting that they did a trash job for 5 years, so it's pointless for me to talk in this thread i'll just leave

but let me just add something

you're so fcking delusional, balance was shit in season 2? i think so i remember some things that made me insane balance is much better now? just return to riot's HQ i don't want someone telling me that the balance of season 7 is better than season 2 when almost every adc were picked in season 2 except during one patch unlike from season 2 to now

it's just insane how people try to defend riot, fact that you shittalk supports in season 2 proves it

I'm saying balance over the past few seasons is better than what season 2 was because comparing the balance of an entire season to a season only two months in is completely idiotic. Grand scale thinking, try it.

Ahristocats16 votes

{quoted}

To say Season 2 was the best season is subjective. It depends on who you ask. I'd personally say season 3 was the best season, but again, that's nothing a fact - it's just a matter of opinion. And any opinion regarding that is totally fine because you are entitled to your own opinion.

you don't like decisions in teamfights? ok then it's subjective

{quoted}

But you know what is a fact? Balance is significantly better now than it was in season 2.

balance is shittier now than in s2 simply because the amount of viable champions is the same (or has decreased) while we released too much champions which means overall balance is worse EVERY SINGLE CLASS were viable at the same time, it wasn't "league of bruisers" unless you were playing in low elo (which i assume was the case for you)

heck, you have to ban like 20 champs to enjoy the game while before you needed to ban urgot jayce diana and 3 other free bans like alistar in low elo

{quoted} We often blow out of proportion how great season 2 was because of our nostalgia and the fact that season 2 is when this games popularity really took it up to a new threshold and climaxed. That was an awesome feeling, being a part of gaming history was an awesome and satisfying feeling. But let's stop pretending that season 2 was somehow this magical land of balance where everyone was happy. Let me remind you of a few things..

0 clue what you're talking about, when i look at season 2 vs now, i compare not only champ balance but overall fun+teamfights+game duration+snowballing+comeback possibility

•Supports legitimately got no gold.

No, seriously. As a support, you bought Philo Stone and HoG and wards with mobis/oracles. That was it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXo-67JYyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtm0de-7Pg

"that was it!" xd No in low elo you had no items, in high elo you could buy one or two items+shurelya, those items would be aegis WOTA or stark

{quoted} You didn't get any other items. You were considered fed as a support if you managed to complete aegis. You absolutely had to take exhaust, heal or clairvoyance.

which other summoner spell you wanted?

{quoted} Any offense summoner was frowned upon. You were absolutely 110% the ADCs bitch with no room to play on your own.

watch gosu pepper roaming and letting genja 1v2 in iem world against dignatas and come back to talk to me

{quoted} While that legacy still exists today, that's largely changed where supports can often have AP (or even AD) carries plugged into it and carry games. This was literally impossible in season 2.

who the fuck care? honestly? Sona could 1v1 the adc until level 7 or 8 same for taric

supports were gamebreaking alone their kit was numerically stronger to let them having no items, STOPPING MALZAHAR AND OTHER BULLSHIT TO GO SUPPORT

{quoted}

•Junglers were extremely gold starved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXo-67JYyk No

Seriously, the jungle of them was extremely harsh. Once again, HoG and farming as little as possible and ganking. You basically played Maokai, Lee Sin, Nunu, Shyvanna, Mundo or Udyr.

skarner nocturne rammus nautilus

let's list the entire jungler shall we? because yeah, except fiddle they were all viable unlike now

{quoted}

•Guys like this were legit nearly 100% banned: Malphite Kassadin

in low elo maybe, find me a high elo game where kassadin was picked in s2 except in ECC poland M5 vs CLG EU

{quoted}

If I need to explain s2 Kassadin, you probably didn't play this game in s2.

Go on

{quoted}

•Top lane was the Olaf vs Jax vs Irelia featuring Rumble show

vladimir fiora kennen jayce warwick gangplank yorick shen wait you want to list everyone? cause the list is freakingly long

{quoted}

•AD casters were god awful

i skipped to there because i don't have time, and it was the only weak point

L2p is what i want to say, because you weren't high elo in s2

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

I smell bias.

Pretty sure nobody was really high elo back then, at least not to today's levels, simply because the game hasn't been around long enough.

Ahristocats17 votes

That is true, but if you ask to any old high elo player how was the game he will tell you, and he won't tell you that kassadin was op

there are things that aren't related to bias

kassadin was simply outclassed by other midlaners like gragas or karthus

and junglers didn't starve from gold

i can do this for days showing games of high elo to show how hatedaddy is wrong

doublelift fg8 votes

if i was a new player

i prefer trusting someone showing proof of what he says instead of op who just straight up throws random unexistant facts

like supports not having items, anyone saying this didn't know how the game work and didn't know that supports all got nerfed after having items because their kit was made to work without items

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wGVNGY83,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-02-22T16:53:18.026+0000)

you don't like decisions in teamfights? ok then it's subjective

Yes, one patch of bad balance and suddenly teamfights and the decision making behind them in the last 5 seasons have suddenly lost all decision points. team fights lasted an entirety two patches ago, when we had tanks dominating. Relax.

balance is shittier now than in s2 simply because the amount of viable champions is the same (or has decreased) while we released too much champions which means overall balance is worse

That's really not true. Most champions were laughbly weak. You can play several champions now, yes some are clearly broken but that trend has always continued.

EVERY SINGLE CLASS were viable at the same time, it wasn't "league of bruisers" unless you were playing in low elo (which i assume was the case for you)

Nice AD hominem. Let's be real, season 2 diamond is basically s7 gold at best. Players of today would've roflstomped us back in the day. And every class throughout this season will likely be balanced, as that was most true during the last several seasons. But classes were much smaller and simpler then, too. The game was simpler. And I'd say while I enjoyed that simplicity, I like the complex things Riot has added and clearly don't dislike them enough to quit, hence you being here.

heck, you have to ban like 20 champs to enjoy the game while before you needed to ban urgot jayce diana and 3 other free bans like alistar in low elo

Let's not dismiss the fact that several champions in s2 had to be hotfixed. And you're using isolated examples while I'm using general examples. Diana was released at the end of season 2, right before Elise and Zed. And I'm saying many of the champions that were permanent banned were banned for that entire season more generally. With that same logic, less class diversity existed in s2 the same way it does today because not unlike now, the strong classes cylce through. The difference is that Riot has gotten better at minimizing that effect and with more champions and a more complicated game to consider, the same is by far more balanced now.

We often blow out of proportion how great season 2 was because of our nostalgia and the fact that season 2 is when this games popularity really took it up to a new threshold and climaxed. That was an awesome feeling, being a part of gaming history was an awesome and satisfying feeling. But let's stop pretending that season 2 was somehow this magical land of balance where everyone was happy. Let me remind you of a few things..

0 clue what you're talking about, when i look at season 2 vs now, i compare not only champ balance but overall fun+teamfights+game duration+snowballing+comeback possibility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXo-67JYyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtm0de-7Pg

You're comparing one isolated game to one isolated patch. This in itself is flawed. I'm not denying the game is unbalanced right now, I'm telling you the game will be more balanced by a month or two because we are literally a few months removed from preseason.

"that was it!" xd No in low elo you had no items, in high elo you could buy one or two items+shurelya, those items would be aegis WOTA or stark

Tell me how often you got the gold for those items. Not very often, the gold gen wasn't way lower, gp10 items were more expensive. This isn't up for debate, this is a fact. Riot increased global gold gen in s3 specifically for this reason. Are you saying Riot Ian wrong now?

You didn't get any other items. You were considered fed as a support if you managed to complete aegis. You absolutely had to take exhaust, heal or clairvoyance.

which other summoner spell you wanted?

Look at now where a support can freely take whatever SS they want and nobody bitches. Take ignite in s2 and get flamed away. Why are you dismissing that as if it wasnt a problem.

Any offense summoner was frowned upon. You were absolutely 110% the ADCs bitch with no room to play on your own.

watch gosu pepper roaming and letting genja 1v2 in iem world against dignatas and come back to talk to me

One game. This is one game. This was not a general strategy that worked out. I am sure I could pull a game out of my ass where we 5 man dove top and cheesed to victory. Hey, 5 top, new meta.

While that legacy still exists today, that's largely changed where supports can often have AP (or even AD) carries plugged into it and carry games. This was literally impossible in season 2.

who the fuck care? honestly? Sona could 1v1 the adc until level 7 or 8 same for taric

Two broken supports at the time surely represent the entire class. Isn't that your argument for most tanks sucking now? Or am I wrong because that logic is inconvenient for you?

supports were gamebreaking alone their kit was numerically stronger to let them having no items, STOPPING MALZAHAR AND OTHER BULLSHIT TO GO SUPPORT

Like 2-3 supports were, most of them sucked and the role has an extreme low satisfaction rate compared to now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXo-67JYyk No

skarner nocturne rammus nautilus

let's list the entire jungler shall we? because yeah, except fiddle they were all viable unlike now

in low elo maybe, find me a high elo game where kassadin was picked in s2 except in ECC poland M5 vs CLG EU

Go on

vladimir fiora kennen jayce warwick gangplank yorick shen wait you want to list everyone? cause the list is freakingly long

i skipped to there because i don't have time, and it was the only weak point

Again, you're bringing up isolated incidents of times where maybe a specific champion was strong but in general, most of these champions were not released until closer to the end or strong for a patch or two. I explained why this is flawed. Kassadin was perma banned, even in "high elo." In competitive? Yes, not nearly as much. But high elo streamers like Dyrus, DL and Elementz (at the time) often warned you should ban Kassadin.

L2p is what i want to say, because you weren't high elo in s2

Yeah fuck you 2012 HateDaddy, you bronze pos, how dare you tell me to stop overreacting to one patch and making emotional rants. Fuck you!

jaymc11303 votes

{quoted}

Yes, one patch of bad balance and suddenly teamfights and the decision making behind them in the last 5 seasons have suddenly lost all decision points. team fights lasted an entirety two patches ago, when we had tanks dominating. Relax.

That's really not true. Most champions were laughbly weak. You can play several champions now, yes some are clearly broken but that trend has always continued.

Nice AD hominem. Let's be real, season 2 diamond is basically s7 gold at best. Players of today would've roflstomped us back in the day. And every class throughout this season will likely be balanced, as that was most true during the last several seasons. But classes were much smaller and simpler then, too. The game was simpler. And I'd say while I enjoyed that simplicity, I like the complex things Riot has added and clearly don't dislike them enough to quit, hence you being here.

Let's not dismiss the fact that several champions in s2 had to be hotfixed. And you're using isolated examples while I'm using general examples. Diana was released at the end of season 2, right before Elise and Zed. And I'm saying many of the champions that were permanent banned were banned for that entire season more generally. With that same logic, less class diversity existed in s2 the same way it does today because not unlike now, the strong classes cylce through. The difference is that Riot has gotten better at minimizing that effect and with more champions and a more complicated game to consider, the same is by far more balanced now.

You're comparing one isolated game to one isolated patch. This in itself is flawed. I'm not denying the game is unbalanced right now, I'm telling you the game will be more balanced by a month or two because we are literally a few months removed from preseason.

Tell me how often you got the gold for those items. Not very often, the gold gen wasn't way lower, gp10 items were more expensive. This isn't up for debate, this is a fact. Riot increased global gold gen in s3 specifically for this reason. Are you saying Riot Ian wrong now?

Look at now where a support can freely take whatever SS they want and nobody bitches. Take ignite in s2 and get flamed away. Why are you dismissing that as if it wasnt a problem.

One game. This is one game. This was not a general strategy that worked out. I am sure I could pull a game out of my ass where we 5 man dove top and cheesed to victory. Hey, 5 top, new meta.

Two broken supports at the time surely represent the entire class. Isn't that your argument for most tanks sucking now? Or am I wrong because that logic is inconvenient for you?

Like 2-3 supports were, most of them sucked and the role has an extreme low satisfaction rate compared to now.

Again, you're bringing up isolated incidents of times where maybe a specific champion was strong but in general, most of these champions were not released until closer to the end or strong for a patch or two. I explained why this is flawed. Kassadin was perma banned, even in "high elo." In competitive? Yes, not nearly as much. But high elo streamers like Dyrus, DL and Elementz (at the time) often warned you should ban Kassadin.

Yeah fuck you 2012 HateDaddy, you bronze pos, how dare you tell me to stop overreacting to one patch and making emotional rants. Fuck you!

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

You sir are by far the most chill high elo player on the boards.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

You sir are by far the most chill high elo player on the boards.

Not even close, but I do appreciate ya stroking muh ego.

Purrrrr.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Who on earth is more chill than you? Just asking.

jaymc11303 votes

{quoted}

Who on earth is more chill than you? Just asking.

Deep terror Nami, no question. Loads of others too.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Huh, I didn't know that Nami was high elo. Learn something new everyday.

jaymc11303 votes

{quoted}

Huh, I didn't know that Nami was high elo. Learn something new everyday.

Depends on what your perspective of "high" is really.

Definitely the boards most chill poster for the last 3 years though.

MaeDoSan14 votes

You say S2 was feast or famine but doesn't that mean snowballing ? Weird never felt like any other season before this one was more snowbally

LongHair Fox7 votes

In S2 it was really easy to stall and hard to take towers since baron only gave regen and no minion buffs. This meant that if a team got ahead they would spent 10-20 minutes farming both jungles and trying to deny as much cs as possible. After that they would be strong enough that they could dive the towers anyway. The meta of this patch is more feast or famine but previous patch and likely next patch will be less feast or famine again.

MaeDoSan6 votes

That is because the towers were hard to kill , which is not a bad thing SKT T1 still plays using this play-style so it has nothing to do with the game in particular , instead before it was a choice that had naturally become optimal

Verdade1 votes

No, it was easy to stall because you could combine waveclear and GP/5 to catch up if severely behind. Now? Try it, i dare you.

MaeDoSan2 votes

So you are saying the average time in which the enemy got to the nexus tower across all the patches has not changed ? So they reach the tower in about roughly the same average time as they did before and had an easier time stalling because of wave clear ?

Verdade4 votes

Of course it did, but look at reasons why. It's not weaker turrets, as they never were strong It's not ability to splitpush. We had splitpush gods (Irelia, Shen, Yi) who were better at it than anyone now. It's the objectives. I mean, Baron gave you 40AD/AP and some regen, drake gave just gold. If you wanted to crack open the base, you had to get really good initiation OR divide your team and pressure it from multiple directions. Now you can just take Baron and steamroll with nearly-invincible melee minions and Sieges outranging turrets, OR take Elder and get disgusting amounts of combat stats.

Look at Ziggs and reasons why he was nerfed/reworked.

ZT Xperimentor13 votes

Can't deny the game feeling more fun back then though, there was more of a player increase. These days? People are quitting more-so, that should tell you something.

WoonStruck11 votes

I'm not romanticizing its balance.

It wasn't great, you're right. League's balance has never been 'great'.

However, season 2's meta was the best; the most diverse. There wasn't really anything that made you say 'wow that's bullshit, I'm going to stop playing this game for the next month unless they address it'. Of course, there were significant flaws with every season.

As far as bans go, Kass was pretty much the only permaban until Elise. Even then, each game he was in he was either useless or steamrolled everything. He was more like the Yasuo of season 2.

Extrasolar3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not romanticizing its balance.

It wasn't great, you're right. League's balance has never been 'great'.

However, season 2's meta was the best; the most diverse. There wasn't really anything that made you say 'wow that's bullshit, I'm going to stop playing this game for the next month unless they address it'.

Kass was pretty much the only permaban.

Pretty much this. I would give the edge to season 3, personally, as I felt that it had the most balance. Not that there weren't strong(er) champions, but the games themselves were slower-paced. Even if you were behind, you still felt like you had a good chance to turn it around and win, as opposed to the roflstomp "if you get behind the enemy team will end at 25 minutes and there's nothing you can do about it" meta that has grown increasingly common. Granted, Riot has taken measures to reduce the snowball, but it's still far more prevalent than it was during season 3.

WoonStruck2 votes

Season 3 fucked the jungle.

It made only tanky/supportive junglers who could clear viable, rushing GP10->Aegis->bulwark. I personally hated that. It was boring to have the first jungler to complete Aegis, then force fights win, or get bulwark then do the same thing and win.

Mid was also really boring at the time.

5 or so champions were viable because they could drop a single spell and clear a wave. Everyone else died to jungler CC+mage damage repeatedly since Elise this monster was created and only the junglers that could keep up were viable.

Extrasolar1 votes

I'll give you the jungle. I remember that jungle got pretty fucked over due to the changes, and the fact that if you jungled, you either picked Lee Sin, or you picked Elise.

But the diversity and balance in other parts of the map was good, I would say even better than now.

Currently in the bot, we've got 2 ADC that are picked, Varus and Jhin. Mid lane is going to be a Syndra or a Corki.

In jungle, you've got Kha'zix, Hecarim, or Rengar.

Not a whole lot else going on.

WoonStruck2 votes

Oh I'm definitely not arguing that season 3 is worse than 6/7.

I'm just saying season 2 was the best from a design/diversity standpoint.

Pretty much anything is better than 6/7. I'd even prefer going back to League of Cleavers.

jaymc11302 votes

{quoted}

I'd even prefer going back to League of Cleavers.

You're an evil, terrible, despicable person for even contemplating such a thing. You're like Darth Vader wrapped in Freddy Kruger wearing a Hitler suit.

WoonStruck2 votes

It was pretty bad, but at least some of the games were enjoyable and not entirely one-sided.

It was horrible from a balance perspective, and was just about as snowbally, but what started the snowball wasn't something breathing in your general direction.

As bad as League of Cleavers was, it was still more enjoyable than at the very least season 7. I'm pretty hesitant about including 6 though, as much as I disliked it overall.

Cleavers was just barely less of a shit-stain on my mind than what we're dealing with currently.

GigglesO10 votes

{quoted}

To say Season 2 was the best season is subjective. It depends on who you ask. I'd personally say season 3 was the best season

Any season where the enemy actually had to do something other than sneeze to kill you was a better season.

deadlychuck9 votes

Yes it is subjective, but when you have a vastly superior game, the details might be subjective, but the results are fairly objective.

Longer teamfights + lategame - snowballing, made for a better formula than the current system.

Some things didn't exist to a large degree back then, but who's to say those aren't part of the causes behind the current game state? Obviously the ideal state would be to take the things which work today, and implement them in a way which makes them compatible with the previous formula. Though, we don't know what that would look like if things like AD casters were viable back then, we don't know what it would be like if supports had better access to gold.

Lugg8 votes

Call me crazy, but IMHO the tank meta was the most balanced point in LoL. Yeah the games went on for 50 minutes, but they were usually close and MUCH more fun than the cancerous snowball metas.

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