Nidalee is a really fun and unique champion to play

The Bearded Bard··64 votes·4,173 views

HOWEVER, she is honestly one of the worst champions in the game to play against for a few reasons.

  1. The Human Q: I'm completely fine with how much her spear is able to do. It is a hard skillshot to land, anyone saying otherwise probably hasn't played much Nidalee and is falsely claiming she's a super easy champion. What I'm not okay with is the fact that it's on a 6 second cooldown, 3.6 if you're like myself and many others who max out cdr every game. The mana cost is kind of negligible as well, 90 for max rank? After I'm finally oom from chucking spears for 20 minutes late game, I only have to wait a couple seconds to regen enough for another with only a morellos for mana regen/mana items. Increase the cooldown, increase the mana cost. She's got an entire set of abilities that don't cost mana, she can afford to spend a bit more while in human form.

  2. The Cougar W: No one enjoys infinite gap closers and low cd escapes, especially when hers is manaless. Honestly not much you can do here, and that on top of long range burst skillshot are kind of her identity as a champion, so I wouldn't change anything here.

  3. The Human E: The rest of her kit makes it extremely hard to lane against considering she's got a reset, manaless form, long range, an execute, 2 minute wards that trigger your passive which is a 4 second "Haha you can't go near your minions without dying" mark. On top of that you give her a heal with a .5 ratio (pretty damn great for a heal) ensuring any damage you do whether early game or late doesn't stick. It's infuriating for such a slippery champion to have a heal, and on top of that it gives a huge attack speed buff for 7 seconds. That's an unnecessarily long time. My advice is to increase the heal's mana cost at early ranks, as of right now it's really not taxing enough not to spam, and lower the attack speed buff to 5 seconds, while increasing the base of the heal at all ranks so it's more impactful, yet less spammable at early ranks.

TL;DR: My suggested changes: Increase Human Q cooldown to 7 seconds from 6, increase mana cost to 60/70/80/90/100 from 50/60/70/80/90. Increase Human E mana cost at early ranks to 80/90/100/110/120 from 60/75/90/105/120, decrease the duration of attack speed slow to 5 seconds from 7, increase base of heal to 65/105/145/185/225 from 45/85/125/155/205 to compensate. This way it costs more to use it at early ranks, but the heal is more impactful. I'd also stagnate Human W's mana cost at 40 from 40/45/50/55/60 as a bit of compensation for the increased mana cost on Q. Overall these are nerfs, but I don't think they're too heavy and there's room to compensate her further if needed.

73 Comments

Lugg7 votes

Well thought out post. Hopefully Riot is paying attention.

LaceUp232 votes

They don't pay attention to anything that isn't, "he called me bad word". Sad truth.

Anidan3 votes

And skins. Sometimes Rioters will respond to skin ideas. Skin ideas and random tribunal-worthy QQ are like Riot-bait somehow.

It is nice to see a Rioter (that we all know isn't part of balance or art team or lore team) being normal human beings in the skin posts, though.

Voluug135 votes

A skillshot is not a skillshot when you can spam it for 20min without going OoM after one mana reg item.

Joquan2 votes

You guys exaggerate everything here.

RikoZerame1 votes

We're here to have fun, after all. ;D

Noam Braumsky1 votes

{quoted}

You guys exaggerate everything here.

You could do the math for us if you care about accuracy :)

Remlap12234 votes

Honestly, Nid's not even in my top ten anymore. After Kalista was released, she doesn't even scratch the surface of the champions that just make me want to bash my keyboard in.

Don't get me wrong, I don't squee every time I have to lane against her, but compared to Evelynn, Shaco, and Kalista, her annoyance level is Galio levels by comparison.

The Bearded Bard6 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, Nid's not even in my top ten anymore. After Kalista was released, she doesn't even scratch the surface of the champions that just make me want to bash my keyboard in.

Don't get me wrong, I don't squee every time I have to lane against her, but compared to Evelynn, Shaco, and Kalista, her annoyance level is Galio levels by comparison.

Hmmm my top 10 in no particular order would have to be Annie Fizz Garen Heimerdinger Katarina Kalista Morgana Riven Vayne Yasuo

jDVL20eCYs3 votes

not seen lane nida in since spring. its not even good so i don't get the part about the laning. if anything lane nida could need buff. problem is that as skilled jungle nida is so extremely strong and have so much potential while a meh nida is nothing specially do the line of weak.

there are already nerfs on pbe for nida. q damage reduced and passive duration lowered from 10 to 6 and some thing more i think

The Bearded Bard13 votes

[{quoted}](name=ekko or feed,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-28T18:50:17.709+0000)

not seen lane nida in since spring. its not even good so i don't get the part about the laning. if anything lane nida could need buff. problem is that as skilled jungle nida is so extremely strong and have so much potential while a meh nida is nothing specially do the line of weak.

Well the only part of this thread about laning is the part about her heal, and it'd be a buff on top of a nerf, so hey look we both win.

Thanks for you input though.

Her passive only lasts for four seconds, not ten. Not sure what you're trying to say there, but like I said, her damage is not the problem, it's the low cooldowns that take away from the the 'skill' part of skillshot.

Zair Umbras2 votes

Tons of mages have skill shots with low CD's. Ziggs's Q has a 6s base CD just like Nid's that goes down to a 4s while Nid's stays at 6s at all ranks. lol. Xerath's goes from 9 to 5s. Karma's goes down to 5s. Varus's Q goes down to 8, barely longer... Many mages and poke champs in general have low CD poke. Only one who doesn't is Jayce, but that's because his is by far the most destructive

Hello I am Bird2 votes

But yet Nid's does more damage without needing to pass through a Lightning field or whatever it is. Like, yeah, I get Jayce's is AOE, but nid does a lot more damage

Zair Umbras2 votes

Nid's can do a lot more for hitting, but it's easier to dodge while Jayce's can hit like a damn truck on multiple people and because it explodes regardless of hitting anything, it can hit people that side step it.

Joquan1 votes

Lane nidalee is nothing to talk about. Most of her power comes through hitting people with the Q, and in a lane full of minions, it's not going ot be that easy to kill someone in lane. Which is why she is played in the jungle and ONLY the jungle with an 83% pick rate.

If you are complaining about nidalee in mid lane there are much stronger picks, like Zair mentioned. Place a Varus, Ziggs, Xerath, Varus, Jayce, Yasuo, or a Heimerdinger in the mid lane, and see whos more useful in the game.

Edit: To what you say craburger, if jayce and nidalee are equal in skill, he will do more damage simply because his is faster and harder to dodge.

3TWarrior1 votes

well actually, as someone pointed out with her 3.6 minimum cooldown can extend hunt infinitely if the target is hit with a Q, or trap, but that's unlikely unless they're close range, but if they're close range, cougar will be much more valuable

Saianna3 votes

Imo Cat Q is also kind of broken.

I get it she has to have some assassin'ish nuke on her, but it's far beyond "good"..

It often deals more damage than Garens R ever could...

Tim is fire3 votes

Ekko Nidalee Riven Rengar Heimerdinger MasterYi Mordekaiser LeeSin balanced champignons

Rabid Husky3 votes

Katarina forgot one

Ancestor0071 votes

and Fizz

JAGMAG1 votes

id say ekko is fairly balanced so is lee and yi ekko had nerfs that balanced him out lee needs insane mechanics and yi jsut blind/hard cc and hes worthless

Tim is fire1 votes

Ekkos nerfs are hilarious.

fisox1 votes

Add Leblanc and Yasuo

Zair Umbras1 votes

Eh. Personally, I think her W in Human needs to be changed to something more active that can mark her opponents and do damage, that way her spear can be reduced in damage. Much like Elise, her kit is meant to have human form get the person somewhat low and then switch forms and go in for the kill. The difference between them is Nidalee has a heal that also provides AS, which doesn't go with her kit at all, in fact the heal itself likely should be changed and she should get a tiny heal when she presses Q in cougar form on a Marked target since she's literally biting into them and eat it. Would make a bit more sense and leave her E as something capable of being reworked while also adding proper counter play to her kit.

Lower Human form Q, change W and E, add slight healing to cougar form Q on Hunted Targets. Adds counter play, less reliance on always using the spear for killing and most of your damage, plus her heal would be tied to Risk and Reward.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-29T00:24:59.310+0000)

Eh. Personally, I think her W in Human needs to be changed to something more active that can mark her opponents and do damage, that way her spear can be reduced in damage. Much like Elise, her kit is meant to have human form get the person somewhat low and then switch forms and go in for the kill. The difference between them is Nidalee has a heal that also provides AS, which doesn't go with her kit at all, in fact the heal itself likely should be changed and she should get a tiny heal when she presses Q in cougar form on a Marked target since she's literally biting into them and eat it. Would make a bit more sense and leave her E as something capable of being reworked while also adding proper counter play to her kit.

Lower Human form Q, change W and E, add slight healing to cougar form Q on Hunted Targets. Adds counter play, less reliance on always using the spear for killing and most of your damage, plus her heal would be tied to Risk and Reward.

The damage on Q isn't the issue, a straight damage nerf to it wouldn't fix the problem of spammable spears and it would just make nidalee feel worse to play as while not addressing the issues. The issue is there's no drawback to firing off spears whenever you feel like it. A higher cooldown and mana cost would impact bad nidalee players heavily while not punishing good nidalee players that can consistently land spears. The W is fine, her whole kit is really fun to play, changing that isn't the point of these suggestions. The same for the heal mana cost increase, and at the same time you'd be getting a stronger heal, but it'd actually drain your mana if you spam it.

Zair Umbras2 votes

Straight up nerfing it and giving her better options with her W and E would fix the problem. Who cares if she spams spears for days? Ziggs, Ez, Xerath, and Kog all have long ranged abilities that can do a TON of damage and are very easily spammed without any thoughts of mana with just a blue buff.

When you think about nerfing things, you can't just simply say 'This ability is now gated by mana, so it gets to do all your health in a single hit'. If Nid spears still had tree trunk sized hit boxs and did the same damage as before with the NEW items, it could cost 1k mana per spear and it wouldn't mean crap because it would one shot your damn carry. Mana should never be an excuse as to why it does a lot and then going along and saying 'It's spammable, so doing low damage shouldn't matter'. Hello Evelynn. Yes, mana costs and low damage that's spammable does go a long way. Eve is a prime example of that with her Q getting its mana cost thrown around often. More mana cost with it being highly spammable means with blue, it's too strong. Without blue, it's near worthless.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-07-29T03:42:24.885+0000)

Straight up nerfing it and giving her better options with her W and E would fix the problem. Who cares if she spams spears for days? Ziggs, Ez, Xerath, and Kog all have long ranged abilities that can do a TON of damage and are very easily spammed without any thoughts of mana with just a blue buff.

When you think about nerfing things, you can't just simply say 'This ability is now gated by mana, so it gets to do all your health in a single hit'. If Nid spears still had tree trunk sized hit boxs and did the same damage as before with the NEW items, it could cost 1k mana per spear and it wouldn't mean crap because it would one shot your damn carry. Mana should never be an excuse as to why it does a lot and then going along and saying 'It's spammable, so doing low damage shouldn't matter'. Hello Evelynn. Yes, mana costs and low damage that's spammable does go a long way. Eve is a prime example of that with her Q getting its mana cost thrown around often. More mana cost with it being highly spammable means with blue, it's too strong. Without blue, it's near worthless.

For the record, making the spear skinnier wasn't as much of a nerf as people make it out to be. As a nidalee player, I prefer it this way because it's easier to snake through minions. Also gonna put out there that if you build MR the spears won't one shot you at any point. Even if you don't, she's gonna have to follow up if she wants to kill you with just one spear.

Zair Umbras1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-29T03:54:25.425+0000)

For the record, making the spear skinnier wasn't as much of a nerf as people make it out to be. As a nidalee player, I prefer it this way because it's easier to snake through minions. Also gonna put out there that if you build MR the spears won't one shot you at any point. Even if you don't, she's gonna have to follow up if she wants to kill you with just one spear.

They nerfed its damage as well as nerfing its size. It used to a little more base and about 20% or so in ratio.

In competitive play, it would easily take out anyone who wasn't super beefed up and have them going B because they'd be too low to fight. Her competitive play is what had actually gotten her nerfed to begin with. All she had to do was land 1 spear on anyone who wasn't a beefy tank and it was super easy to do that.

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-07-29T03:42:24.885+0000)

very easily spammed without any thoughts of mana with just a blue buff.

Blue buff has extremely powerful mana regen. I do think they should consider toning it down. But it's going to affect the balance of a lot of mids in a way they're unlikely to want to do midseason.

ShinobisDemon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-29T00:24:59.310+0000)

Eh. Personally, I think her W in Human needs to be changed to something more active that can mark her opponents and do damage, that way her spear can be reduced in damage. Much like Elise, her kit is meant to have human form get the person somewhat low and then switch forms and go in for the kill. The difference between them is Nidalee has a heal that also provides AS, which doesn't go with her kit at all, in fact the heal itself likely should be changed and she should get a tiny heal when she presses Q in cougar form on a Marked target since she's literally biting into them and eat it. Would make a bit more sense and leave her E as something capable of being reworked while also adding proper counter play to her kit.

Lower Human form Q, change W and E, add slight healing to cougar form Q on Hunted Targets. Adds counter play, less reliance on always using the spear for killing and most of your damage, plus her heal would be tied to Risk and Reward.

People are only considering nid top...

Nidalee support uses heal for the ADC (attack speed/heal) nidalee Jungle needs hp and attack speed for camps. NIdalee mid (who does this) doesn't need it. AD nid adc, needs the heal and attack speed.

As a Nidalee main, I think she is actually in a fair place right now. she isn't like (YI) or (Annie) or (Blitz) or (Singed) (Morgana) that require little to know practice. If you want to play nidalee at any decent level you need to train alot like most decent champions which I feel is something that should give her a little power.

Skillshots by nature have to be a little OP or what would be the point of trying to land them? Lets think for a second, at level 1 the average skill shot doesn't do much more damage than an auto or 2 from an adc. To ADC all you need to do is click someone and wait half a second and boom, damage. Skillshots require accuracy practice and prediction.

I'm so sick of people complaing about things that don't need to be fixed. Problems with the new HUD? Think it should be reverted? Take a look at tab, or any of the good things done for them.

Can any of you remember what nidalee used to be like? When you couldn't play her anywhere because she couldn't farm until 6? And her spears was all she had?

Riot improved Nidalee and I think she is pretty decent right now. Lets focus on champs like kalista who can (poke) with her auto's without ever being caught.

P.S. Nidalee has no form of CC other than the slow. Her traps are basically useless she doesn't have an ult because her ult just changes forms, her cougar Q doesn't do much executing by itself really (compared to other Executes) and her spears only do alot of damage early if you go solid Penetration and AP.

Sorry for the rant, just sick of threads by people complaining about a not very OP champion.

KayleeT1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-29T00:24:59.310+0000)

Eh. Personally, I think her W in Human needs to be changed to something more active that can mark her opponents and do damage, that way her spear can be reduced in damage. Much like Elise, her kit is meant to have human form get the person somewhat low and then switch forms and go in for the kill. The difference between them is Nidalee has a heal that also provides AS, which doesn't go with her kit at all, in fact the heal itself likely should be changed and she should get a tiny heal when she presses Q in cougar form on a Marked target since she's literally biting into them and eat it. Would make a bit more sense and leave her E as something capable of being reworked while also adding proper counter play to her kit.

Lower Human form Q, change W and E, add slight healing to cougar form Q on Hunted Targets. Adds counter play, less reliance on always using the spear for killing and most of your damage, plus her heal would be tied to Risk and Reward.

The Attack speed buff is so that support nidalee is viable as a poke support

Zair Umbras1 votes

Yeah, but it still doesn't fit her OWN kit at ALL. She's always been considered a Mage and Assassin above all else, but they wanted to give her some sort of supporty-ish ability and gave her one of the more awkward choices that not only thematically doesn't fit, but as a solo champion, it doesn't have an actual fit for a Poke champion. It would be similar to Ziggs, Xerath, or the like having a random heal thrown in or Jayce sitting there with a heal. It just wouldn't make much sense and on her, it really doesn't. Her kit has been and always will be to get the person low in human form, then go in for the kill as cougar form. When they reworked her kit a little bit in season 4, they made sure to change her to be more like that with her kit 'Hunting' the enemies, getting them low with her ranged poke, then going in for the kill. They gave her the tools to do this properly, yet they didn't take into affect that her E doesn't fit into that. Her E in cougar form is a generic AoE hit meant to help with wave clear and doing some good AoE damage, which is fine. Her E in human form is a generic Heal on a targeted ally. Why? Why would she have that STILL?

They wanted to shift Nidalee into being an AP Assassin that pokes her enemies down and then dives in for the kill on the targets she's hunting, so WHY would she need to be able to heal her allies at the same time? She's not like Sona any of the other three supports that poke well and heal and her kit has been shifted from originally being a supporty-ish one to being a true AP Assassin. So why does she need a heal? WHY? WHY DOES SHE NEED IT? She ISN'T a support, she had her AD build reduced, her traps are near useless, and because of this, all of her power is shoved into pressing Q in human form and then running away in Cougar. Why is her kill potential shoved all into a single human form ability without any other kind of synergy? Jayce has special interactions between his E and Q while his W is a standard steroid that FITS HIS KIT when in ranged form. Elise's human form abilities are all about capturing her prey and quickly draining their health bar down, then going in for the kill as spider form. So why does Nidalee have a god damn Heal and a useless W? Every last bit of her power in human form is shoved into her Q because she has no other use in human form damage-wise. Absolutely NOTHING else. Her E helps push towers, but so does her Q in cougar form and her W in cougar form can help proc Lich/Runeglaive. You can argue that her heal helps her jungle, then give her a small heal on her Cougar form Q if it kills a target since she's chomping into her opponent and ripping it off, may as well eat it. She gets sustain, but has to put RISK into it and it lets her human form get a new E that might actually help her in lane.

Riot let her hunt targets because she was near useless in lane. All she had was her Q so if you dodged her Q in lane, which is easy with minions, she can't get close to you or do anything. The only reason she saw laning success was because laning let her get gold to be able to throw tree trunk sized spears at carries for 160% of her AP plus almost 600 base damage. Most AP combos total 200%-250% of their AP and Nid got to do over half that in just a spear. That got nerfed to 450 plus 150% of her AP though and the spears got turned into toothpicks while she got kill potential in her cougar form. Well, why not shed off some of that power off her Q and put it into a new damaging ability on her E that could let her hunt targets? Give her kill potential in lane? Her late game oppression would be highly tuned down because of her Q being nerfed a bit, but her team fighting could be increased, her lane pressure could easily exist, and she'd still do well in the jungle.

TehNACHO1 votes

I'm still confused why her Spear needs to scale with distance traveled.

I thought the whole point of the rework was to remove power from her nuking from 1000+ units away and more into setting up combos for her Cougar form. Why does it retain the mechanic that largely defined that old play style?

The Bearded Bard3 votes

{quoted}

I'm still confused why her Spear needs to scale with distance traveled.

I thought the whole point of the rework was to remove power from her nuking from 1000+ units away and more into setting up combos for her Cougar form. Why does it retain the mechanic that largely defined that old play style?

It's kind of her identity as a champion.

TehNACHO4 votes

Which got reworked.

Old identity is old.

LaceUp231 votes

Harder to hit at distance = bigger reward for hitting. I'm fine with that aspect of it.

TehNACHO2 votes

Which by that logic then makes it odd that not every other slow moving skillshot applies to these mechanics.

Imagine if Dark Binding's effectiveness tripled at max distance. 9 second snares man.

Anidan1 votes

So we go back to the era of Astral Trekker in ye olde DotA, pre-IceFrog. His Q by itself was a 10(!) second snare, his W was a 5 second stun, his E was an auto-attack steroid that added 21 damage to every attack, and his ultimate ability was 750 bonus hp, 30 damage, 15 armor (equivalent to 90 armor in League), and complete spell immunity. His ultimate was passive, incidentally.

Luckily, him and a few others (Death Ward Riki, old Invoker, Void Demon, to name a few) were all eradicated the instant IceFrog got his hands on DotA.

Since it was pretty much right before IceFrog, that makes Guinsoo responsible for that stuff. Though we already know Guinsoo was a bad DotA designer, because he made designs but didn't necessarily balance them since DotA wasn't competitve at that point.

HighKingOfSkyrim1 votes

Maybe one of the only 'change that champ' threads i actually support...

jDiosama1 votes

Just give her mana costs in both forms like all other transformation champions

Celeste Benal1 votes

Her spear base damage just got gutted by 1/6th on PBE.

Elijah Prophet1 votes

Lores you in with kind, friendly title ...... oh it's just another complaint justified with a lengthy explanation.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elijah Prophet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE8bIJTt,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2015-07-29T17:16:10.504+0000)

Lores you in with kind, friendly title ...... oh it's just another complaint justified with a lengthy explanation.

Of all the new comments I've got since yesterday I'm gonna choose this one to respond to since most of the others are basically all saying the same thing. This isn't a complaint thread. This is a thread to protect a champion I enjoy playing from being nerfed in the wrong way. Like I said, I'm not against nerfing Nidalee, but let's go about this in an intelligent way. Straight nerfing her damage doesn't fix the problem and just makes her feel less fun to play, while my suggestions keep the rewards for playing her well the same while adding repercussions for playing her poorly.

WTFMatee1 votes

I've mained nidalee since season 1. I can deeply evaluate things like this.

Trust me if Rito made these changes she would be the new "eve troll pick" you remember? from back in the day wen someone wanted to troll they would pick eve. Yea thats essentially what you would be doing with nidalee.

I've seen her go through countless nerfs but this is by far just ruining her

EDIT: actually it woldnt be THAT bad i totally that you said like a lot of people want her cougar w to cost mana thats just stupid =d

Squeaker1011 votes

-Mobility -Poke -Burst -Sustain -Gap closer

We just need a revive passive and a knock-up until she's perfectly balanced.

Transgressor1 votes

And 2 passives for every 3rd AA, 1 of which procs on-hit effects.

Transgressor1 votes

After reading your name, and what you had to say, I've got only 1 thing:

AYY LMAOKAI.

DarthSpectrum1 votes

I think you hit the points dead on. Playing against Nidalee is like being the Fish in shooting fish in a barrel. Sure, her spears are difficult to land, but she does not lose anything from missing them. Once she gets a item 3165 or item 3174, she can just keep tossing them until one of them hits.

If she ever finds herself in a unfavorable situation, she can either pounce away or flip the tables and all in back on you with cougar form. Most champions who can toss out long range skill shots don't have the mobility or burst to fight off or peel off any assailants who get in close range.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Honestly bro, your TL;DR is more difficult to read than your first 3 points.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Unfortunately we've failed. They nerfed her in the exact way I said they would, in the exact way I said they shouldn't.

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